Author Topic: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists  (Read 1865 times)

Offline ozarquebus

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1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« on: March 16, 2020, 10:08:23 AM »
 Well.. I should just stay at home and self quarantine, but I can't help it.

Looks like this poor excuse for a Guzzista likely be having his "On The Beach" or maybe "Omega Man" movie moment and driving cross country with a bag of sandwiches in the midst of the pandemic to pick up an 1000 SP II with 42Kmi... but the price is irresistible.

Looking over older forum posts, it appears the SPII, though a square head, is held in general high regard with few niggles to speak of.

If anyone would like to take a moment to add their thoughts or adventures with a "Spada", please do so, now.

What does 'Spada' mean, anyway?

Just hope the trip doesn't turn out to be more like "Mad Max" since I won't have Gyro Captain flying MIG Cap for me.

It appears to have several upgrades about 30Kmi ago or more recent, including dyna ign & coils, oil sump extender, koni shocks, replaced brake rotors. Panniers have broken latches. Reportedly runs good.




« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 11:02:58 AM by ozarquebus »
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Offline stratoguzzi

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 11:00:15 AM »
Spada is SWORD in Itailian.....
2007 CalVin
1984 SPNT

Offline ozarquebus

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 11:03:56 AM »
So the idea is the SP cuts though the wind like a sword?
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Offline Aldo

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 11:16:47 AM »
Spada means sword in Italian, but I've heard SP's given the "SPADA" nomenclature only in the UK...no where else. 

I believe the factory intended the "SP" to mean "Super Protezione" or "Superior Protection"-- meaning the added protection for the rider from wind/elements afforded by aerodynamic properties of the fairing and lowers-- tried and tested in the Moto Guzzi wind tunnel.  It's what gives the SP it's sport touring finesse so much appreciated by Guzzisti worldwide. Of note, the SP2 has the 16in front wheel, 18in the back... generally a "love it" or "hate it" type situation among Guzzisti, similar to the LeMans IV. You'd have to try it out to see if it suits you.

FWIW, my dad is selling his SP, though it's the better looking (IMHO) round-head-- no intro needed:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=104802.0
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 01:19:27 PM by Aldo »
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GONE: '72 Eldo,'75 Convert,'04 Thruxton,'89 Guzzi Cafe,'99 Duc 900SS,'79 Guzzi 1000 'SP'ort,'14 Harley '48','12 V7 Stone,'72 Benelli 650S,'82 Guzzi 1000SP,'72 N. Falcone,'75 T3 850,'00 V11S,'78LeMans 1,'89 LeMans,'76 Morini 350S,'89 Duc 750S,'01 Kaw W650

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 11:16:47 AM »

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2020, 03:47:33 PM »
Couple / three things.  This bike is quite alike, compared to my Series III  850 T5.

i) the original saddle does not tip-up, at the end, like that re-upholstery job on the bike at issue.  Not sure it is either as aesthetic, or as comfortable for the pillion rider;

ii) it appears to me that the OEM fork brace continues to be used.  Having said this - those gaiters may conceal pitted fork tubes....?  The OEM arrangement was no gaiters.

iii) non-OEM rotors, in front.  May be fine...  Originals were drilled.

iv) that bike appears to be a USA / federalized bike... owing to its reflector, in front.  That means non-Euro leaned-out carburation...?

v) common frt crashbars... non OEM... but a nice protective feature

vi) not sure why the exhaust, where indicated in attached graphic, is tarnished.  Is it rusted out?  Has the gaiter for the double-U joint been broken, with spatter of grease occurring?

vii) the rear hand-rail is for the later bikes... chromed steel.  The original ones were alloy.

viii) I am not 100% sure if those saddle bags are the original fitment.  I 'kinda think they are.  The straps may be for some additional guarantee that they won't sproing open down the road?

ix) the typical broken rubber component.... (happens to them all):  the rubber that attaches the brake hose to the fender.

x) auxiliary fuel filters, presumably to both PHF30 carbs.  Did the owner suffer rusty tank syndrome, and has it NOT been dealt with to the extent that those aux. filters are required?

xi) barrel shaped grips (like I fit to mine).  i.e. non OEM (originals were non-barrel shaped waffle pattern).

xii) the switchgear on the RHS grip:  owner would appear to have added an additional control, as some of the switchgear may not work anymore.  Not easy to change switchgear cuz the throttle assembly, brake, clutch, etc... is integral with it.

xiii) not 100% sure if front master cylinder is retained, notwithstanding the above " xii) ".  Original is NLA - no longer avail., and rebuild kits are NLA, as well.

xiv)  See this:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hGRHazmi3w  (and also, note the fourth-down photo, below, with reference to this YouTube video.

It's a rather slow-moving YouTube production... but pretty informative.  In it the fellow from Australia complains bitterly about the front 16" wheel.  I note that originally Guzzi fit a Michelin A48 front tire, tube-type... on the front and a Michelin M48 behind.... 110/90-16 front;  120/90-18 rear.  If you look that NLA tire up (actually BOTH) - they have a straight groove down the middle.  Hard to find that kind of rubber these days.  It is MY contention, alone, that this bike needs that kind of rubber.  Others, here on WG, are not so sure of this.  Some have had good luck without this specific feature.  The fellow in the YouTube does NOT have that feature on the front tire of the bike.  Draw your own conclusions.  I think that feature certainly does not HURT front end stability... at speed.  It may, in fact, help it.

The SPII has a big fork-mounted fairing, indeed, a very effective one.  But it exacerbates any tendencies for the front 16" tire to misbehave!









« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 04:32:12 PM by Cdn850T5NT »
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Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2020, 04:01:20 PM »
Incidentally, if you do buy it... (and if, indeed, it still has the OEM Master Cylinder in front - and it is serviceable) there is a trick to getting the front master cylinder cover open successfully.  What happens is that the plastic reservoir has an O ring in the bottom of it... and it leaks, and some brake fluid leaks into the trough-like casting.  The steel screws that hold the cover on thread-in to the casting... and they get rusted in place.  Their heads, Allen-pattern, are very small... and it is super easy to strip the heads.

The answer, really a PITA, is to drain the hydraulic system totally, through the caliper bleed screw (with your vacuum brake bleader).  Once empty, then you disconnect the hose on the bottom of the Master.... and remove the Master from the bike.  You turn it upside down... and all of the aformentioned screws are accessible (the holes into which they are threaded penetrate 100% thru the trough casting).  Apply much high quality penetrating oil (AeroKroil??), wait some time, reapply, etc...  and now you can generally back out the screws from the top (with a modicum of back-and-forth... and care).

I say this because said counter-sunk Allen head screws would be a PITA to source, I am guessing.

YMMV... this whole thing is a PITA.  You may not want to go thru this effort.

Put 'em back with a dollop of neverseize or ????








upload pic
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 04:07:06 PM by Cdn850T5NT »
1985 Eurospec 850 T5 NT (Nuovo Tipo - New Type... i.e. Series III)

Offline Tusayan

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2020, 04:44:42 PM »
What does 'Spada' mean, anyway?

As mentioned above, this name was the invention of the UK importer of the time and is not a factory designation.  I think SP means simply 'Sport", to highlight that the SP was a dedicated touring bike utilizing the Tonti-designed Sport chassis.  At the time, Guzzi was following BMWs lead with names, and the comparable fully faired BMW was called an RS for Rennsport.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 04:48:16 PM by Tusayan »

Offline Denis

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2020, 04:53:57 PM »
I have an '87 SP II I bought new and still have. Guzzi only sent 114 to the US. Mine is #63.
Regarding the one you are looking at, over all it looks pretty clean and relatively unmolested, which is nice to see.

The chrome rear grab rail is correct for all US SPIIs. It has a rubber pad around the center section, where the passenger could use. Note that when the bags are on the bike it's almost impossible to have a passenger because the footpegs are nearly underneath them.

The crash bars look like nice Agostini aftermarket bars, specifically designed for the SPII.

The original mirror "pedestals" were prone to cracking and on this bike they were replaced, unfortunately in a different location, leaving the original holes open.

That seat is crazy: never seen one like it! Might be the original pan under there.

The stains on the right muffler are from the battery acid leaking when the bike fell over on the right side. You can see scratches on the lower fairing from that event. Mine did the same. This happens because the original stands are the worst ever and if you try to load up the left bag and shut it while the bike is on the side stand, it's pretty easy to tip it over onto the right side. Ask me how I know.

Those bags are the older ones which came with the first SPIIs. They are similar to the Cal II bags and V65C bags but are not interchangeable with the racks, if I remember correctly.

The valve covers have either been replaced or had the original blue finish stripped off.

The fairings are excellent and in hot weather can be TOO effective. I've never found the upper fairing to affect handling or performance at all. The lowers are removable.

I kept the 16" wheel because I love how quick it is. Nice to see this one still has it. In the US, the originally came with Pirellis. The front tire, as mentioned earlier, had a center groove, which when it got older, really affected the tracking. I replaced the Pirellis with Michelins until for a time they were hard to get in the US. NOTE: on that 16" front, it's really important to keep about 37lbs of pressure in it!

There is another trick to filling that handlebar master cylinder. Turn the handlebars to the right so the top of the master cylinder is more or less flat. You'll still have to put rags or plastic below it to protect the paint on the tank, lower fairing, etc.

I like it and hope you seriously consider it!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 04:59:11 PM by Denis »
Show me a Le Mans IV and I'll show you a Le Mans 1000.
'87 SPII, '74 Eldorado, '85 LeMans, '91 California, '71 Ducati 450 RT, '41 Indian 841, '40 Indian Model 640-B ex-Canadian Army

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2020, 05:11:49 PM »
Good tips!

To the last poster... is your side-stand mounted near the front engine carrier bolt... or is it like my 850T5NT... much to the rear?  Regardless, it is stupid-close to plumb, when the forks are to the RHS...  Not reliable at all.

I am guessing that, as your bike is an '87 or '88, the stand is like my '85....
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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2020, 05:36:49 PM »
Lots of interesting info here, although I dont have one of the SP's some of the info, especially the front brake is the same I think as my LeMans IV.  Regarding the sidestand...If it has the same spring  loaded ,self retracting one as my LM, then I would replace it with a Browns sidestand first thing. I would not own the LM Mk. IV if there was no browns stand for it!
I have a fused left ankle ,and need the bike to be on a good solid side stand when I mount,and dismount, the stock stand makes this impossible.
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Offline Two Checks

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 06:43:45 PM »


Quote from: Denis on Today at 04:53:57 PM
I have an '87 SP II I bought new and still have. Guzzi only sent 114 to the US. Mine is #63.
Regarding the one you are looking at, over all it looks pretty clean and relatively unmolested, which is nice to see.

The chrome rear grab rail is correct for all US SPIIs. It has a rubber pad around the center section, where the passenger could use. Note that when the bags are on the bike it's almost impossible to have a passenger because the footpegs are nearly underneath them.

The crash bars look like nice Agostini aftermarket bars, specifically designed for the SPII.

The original mirror "pedestals" were prone to cracking and on this bike they were replaced, unfortunately in a different location, leaving the original holes open.

That seat is crazy: never seen one like it! Might be the original pan under there.

The stains on the right muffler are from the battery acid leaking when the bike fell over on the right side. You can see scratches on the lower fairing from that event. Mine did the same. This happens because the original stands are the worst ever and if you try to load up the left bag and shut it while the bike is on the side stand, it's pretty easy to tip it over onto the right side. Ask me how I know.

Those bags are the older ones which came with the first SPIIs. They are similar to the Cal II bags and V65C bags but are not interchangeable with the racks, if I remember correctly.

The valve covers have either been replaced or had the original blue finish stripped off.

The fairings are excellent and in hot weather can be TOO effective. I've never found the upper fairing to affect handling or performance at all. The lowers are removable.

I kept the 16" wheel because I love how quick it is. Nice to see this one still has it. In the US, the originally came with Pirellis. The front tire, as mentioned earlier, had a center groove, which when it got older, really affected the tracking. I replaced the Pirellis with Michelins until for a time they were hard to get in the US. NOTE: on that 16" front, it's really important to keep about 37lbs of pressure in it!

There is another trick to filling that handlebar master cylinder. Turn the handlebars to the right so the top of the master cylinder is more or less flat. You'll still have to put rags or plastic below it to protect the paint on the tank, lower fairing, etc.

I like it and hope you seriously consider it!

Exactly what I was going to say. Fran Cantaldi told me approx  100 SP IIs were imported and SP stood for Sport Production.
The discs are different than mine and the bags appear to be identical.
If the price is right for you by all means buy it. The only thing I can find fault with is legroom. Great bikes.


1990 Cal III f/f  "Il Duce' III"
1987 1000 SPII "Il Duce' II"

Offline ozarquebus

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2020, 07:20:16 PM »
Wow, what an amazing amount of information. CDN850 especially detailed! Thanks Denis!

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Offline Bob Mehmen

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2020, 08:46:02 PM »
  They are great bikes. I've got two, been riding one for 30 years and 125,000 miles, the other for 10 years and 40,000 miles. Most of those miles 2-up. They've been to all the lower 48 and some of Canada.

Offline Denis

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2020, 09:27:25 PM »
Combining answers...

The SPIIs had solid brake rotors, while the 1000 Lemans had semi-floating disks. When mine was a year old the front disk operated by the hand brake lever warped and it was replaced under warranty. The replacement was from Guzzi and an exact fit, but the drills were different.

The SPIIs have a side stand that was mounted at the front using the front engine bolt. While they are strong enough, the angle and position is all wrong. I almost never use mine, going for the center stand instead. With the lower fairing on the bike, that side stand is almost impossible to put down reliably (even if you can reach it) with your foot. I reach over and put it down with my hand on the rare occasion when I use it, which is never on flat ground. Here's how I retrace it when I get on the bike. Start the bike, lean to the right, give the throttle a blip and up it comes.

You're way better off with the center stand, BUT there is a catch. If you put the center stand down and use the grab rail to lift it up, it's all good IF the bags are not on the bike. If they are on the bike, you have to be real careful about making sure your hand isn't under the grab rail AND under the plastic tail section. It will break.

Regarding the front forks, which no one has mentioned yet. The SPII has 38mm forks. The 850T5 has them also, I think. They are pretty stout.
The 16" front wheel is .25" narrower than the 16" wheel on the '85-87 Lemans, and to me, it's quicker. I compared them when I got my '85 Lemans.

All this shit is niggly little stuff which is easy to deal with and get used to once you know about it. Like Bob mentioned earlier, they are great bikes, and if I had to buy mine again, I would do it. That's why I, like Bob, have had ours so long. Great motor, great transmission, great fairings, great handling, great riding position, etc.

I'm in NC and I've ridden mine to Missouri, Wisconsin, up to Buffalo, NY through Canada around the Great Lakes and back to NC. It was a joy.
Show me a Le Mans IV and I'll show you a Le Mans 1000.
'87 SPII, '74 Eldorado, '85 LeMans, '91 California, '71 Ducati 450 RT, '41 Indian 841, '40 Indian Model 640-B ex-Canadian Army

Offline ozarquebus

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2020, 10:07:35 PM »
That is good to know, Bob.

The guy said the discs had been replaced. I have also now found out that he does indeed have extra toggle switches added to handlebars for lighting and a sealed beam headlamp. The front master cylinder is original.

CDN850, you must be an FBI photo-analyst to surmise so much from that fuzzy picture. Only someone who knows exactly what to look for would notice such detail. Next time I will post a Microfilm Shot from my Minolta 16mm spy camera. :grin:

 I was starting to get cold feet, but Denis' recommendation has bucked me up.
 
I wouldn't change the front wheel unless no tire was avaialble, but if needed, would any Tonti wheel fit? I have a 76 Convert front end.
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Offline ozarquebus

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2020, 10:44:16 PM »
Here is a picture of the other side. What can you see in that?


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Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 12:10:26 AM »
Looked at the other photo, i.e. the other side.  I am almost 100% sure the OEM forkbrace continues to be used.

Do realize that the brake hydraulics on this bike are not new.  The biggest concern, in my mind, is that front Master.  All other softparts are available.

Check the mufflers, which are very dear to replace.  Seems to me that you could lightly tap along the bottoms... to see if tinworm has had its way.  Others, maybe someone knows the best way to do this?

Check the fuel tank... looking inside of it.  Also, tap lightly around the petcocks and at the very lowest point, either side, of the tank.  It certainly can rust there...  See if it is "punky".

If you want the same centre-groove type of rubber, I think you can source some IRC tires...  You may have to go down to 100/90-16 in front.  The 2.15" wide rim is pretty darned tight to get the 110-16 on... i.e. in terms of the "well" in the rim (pretty narrow).  I would be interested in what Others think about going to a 100 section front tire.  You DO lose some load capacity in doing this.

If you consider an 18" front wheel, the one from the SPIII or the Strada 1000 fits, I believe.  The SPIII wheel has black highlights.  The Strada one is native aluminum.  However, the triple clamps are set up for 16" front wheel.  The OEM 16" triple clamps DO NOT have "eyes" on them (on the forward-side) to mount instruments... unlike almost all other triple clamps, just to know... Those could be ground-off if you were so-inclined.

I think Gutsibits in the UK has a work-around for the lack of an OEM seals renewal kit for the front master... that is, if the presumably anodyzed bore of the cylinder, nominally PS-12, is still in good condition.  If it came down to this, I could dig out the piston diameter and the bore dia. of the OEM cylinder and piston....  There may be subtle differences in piston diameters out there for nominally PS-12 Brembo brake cylinders... so one would have to be careful.

Chuck in Indiana has a whole section on his rebuild of his Lario (on this site)... and in two separate areas of that spread he goes into GREAT detail on how to restore the switchgear... if it is not melted to h*ll.  If it IS melted, you CAN find replacement switches.  Two versions of switches are out there.  Yours, on this bike, would presumably be the later versions.  Turn signals are on the LH grip... unlike the original ones.  The OEM switches do best if you use them to only switch relays...  i.e. if you fit relays to carry the heavy current duties.

All I can think of, at this point in time.

Good luck... and consider, carefully, the work it may take.  Also, tell us the owner-history, and the miles on the bike...













« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 12:27:48 AM by Cdn850T5NT »
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Offline ozarquebus

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2020, 12:28:53 AM »
42,000 mi. Owner rode it last 30Kmi of that total round the South East for 20 years after he traded an 850T for it. Had the upgrades done in 97; then he lost his job in November.
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Offline Denis

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2020, 08:06:22 AM »
42,000 mi. Owner rode it last 30Kmi of that total round the South East for 20 years after he traded an 850T for it. Had the upgrades done in 97; then he lost his job in November.


Nice coincidence: I traded in my 850-T for my SPII!

16" tires are not hard to find to fit this bike: I have a Pirelli Sport Demon 120/80V 16 on mine now and it is much better than the ones it came with years ago. I think a lot more is involved in swapping the 16" for an 18" on an SPII. Not worth the effort and expense in my opinion.

From the left side of that SP, I'm getting more impressed with how stock it remains. The owner clearly loved and appreciated it for what it was and only made upgrades for distance, comfort and necessity: not for the hell of it.

I like it!
Show me a Le Mans IV and I'll show you a Le Mans 1000.
'87 SPII, '74 Eldorado, '85 LeMans, '91 California, '71 Ducati 450 RT, '41 Indian 841, '40 Indian Model 640-B ex-Canadian Army

Offline Bob Mehmen

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2020, 08:45:22 PM »
   There no need to worry about the master cylinder, just have it brass sleeved. I've had three cylinders done so far. A lot easier and cheaper than trying to cobble something together.

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2020, 12:09:39 AM »
   There no need to worry about the master cylinder, just have it brass sleeved. I've had three cylinders done so far. A lot easier and cheaper than trying to cobble something together.
Fair enough... Whitepost Restorations does them, and I presume a whole lot of other specialist machinists, too.

However, the elastomer seals can be scored by stroking through a crudded-up bore... and the seals are NLA.  Same with the piston.  Normally, the seal kit comes with seals already installed on the piston.  I think I saw, however, once "MotoGiovane" in Italy had the seals just alone.  What this means, worst comes to worst, is that the piston can be grass-roots fabricated to the correct dimensions, and the seals can be gotten from an outfit like MotoGiovane.
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Re: 1000 SP II. The Disease Persists
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2020, 12:17:06 AM »
Confirmed... It appears that MotoGiovane has these elastomers.  It does not list the SPII... but it is exactly the same front master cylinder, switchgear, etc... for the T5 civilian, the SPII, the Lemans IV, the Lario, and a few others.

They show that they have these in stock.

See graphic.

Having said the above, a special tool needs to be acquired to mount these elastomers onto the piston, without damaging them.  Guzzi made the tooling... that fits PS-12 Brembo master cylinder pistons...  See the G5 and 1000 SP base workshop manual, with the Tools page.


« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 12:19:32 AM by Cdn850T5NT »
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Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride , Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here
 


Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride , Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here