Classy!

[Vasco DG]

Look, it really isn't the income. I give more to charity every Christmas than I make from the plates. In fact I don't keep the Tonti plates in stock often because I try and persuade people that unless the're racing it's unlikely they'll ever need one.The V11 plates are a crank-saver though. What pisses me off is that it isn't a *Similar* product, it's identical. And I was never consulted, contacted or anything.

Mind you, if I had to live in Huddersfield I'd probably be willing to rip people off, sell my children into slavery and murder my friends for sixpence just to get out of the place! ;D

And no patent, not worth it, patents are absurdly costly.

Pete

[crc]

things get copied all the time. be thankfull the money went to uk and not china

[earemike]

That's shite!  >:(

When I saw the site in question I'd assumed they'd bought a bunch of Pete's plates & never thought for a moment he didn't know.

(not that I've bought a plate, I want to get rid of at least 1 V11)

[56Pan]

Chuck is right. I've looked into patents and realized unless you're dealing with absolutes it isn't worth it. Change one thickness/hole size the slightest bit and its not the same. Cue the lawyers... now they can sway a jury otherwise if you have VERY deep pockets. It's not as much about the patent as it is the lawyers.
I think it's extremely low for someone to do this. I would never buy anything from these folks knowing this. Please enlighten us on who it is if you would.

Yes, who are these vermin?  I want to make sure they never get a dime from me.

[Vasco DG]

Mine.



Linky.

http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?q=Windage+plate.&f=d&Model=1&search=SEARCH

Not a trace of plagiarism there Eh? ???

Pete

[bad Chad]

I know I'm blowing against the wind here, but they don't look EXACTLY the same to me, very similar yes, but not at all a complete match.

I'm not saying somebody didn't copy Pete's design, they may well have.  Not that I have any experience with patent infringements and such, but my guess even if Pete took them to court, the court would rule too dissimilar to be a copy infringement.

[charlie b]

We run into this in our hobby business all the time.

Yep, copyright is about the only thing that applies here and there is enough difference to make it not applicable.  Like said above, baffles and windage plates are common items (probably patented a long time ago) so you'd be looking at the specific design for this model, which is where a copyright comes in.  And you don't have to change much to make a copyright not applicable.

Kind of like a design for rear sets or bar risers.

But, it does look like they had one of Pete's plates to start with and then modified it just enough to make it 'their own'.  I would not buy one from them as long as I can get one from Pete.

[Triple Jim]

I sent you a PM, Pete.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Exact copy I say.
If you open up both the Guzzibits is a mirror image.

I have no problem with someone copying a good design for themselves or a friend but doing it for profit is theft.

[AJ Huff]

Patents look pretty framed hanging on the wall. About all they are good for.

-AJ

[Cheese]

Pretty easy to do a cad and water-jet these..easy to copy and sell too, just not ethical is all.."Business Ethics" is a bit of an oxymoron after-all.

Peter

[Chuck in Indiana]

Pete's are laser cut, but water jet would do it, too..

[Penderic]

You may want to persuade anyone from trying to make money from copying your products by undercutting them - offer the original (accept no substitutes) for a much lower price - even if you lose money.

Make it so that it is not worth the effort for any competitor to make them. Maybe you can use the effort as a tax write-off latter.

Those pirates, and others, will get the message and treat you differently. And teaching them a lesson may cost you a lot less that trying to use other legal methods.

[youcanrunnaked]

Protecting an Australian product from copying by a UK company would involve an intersection of the laws of those two jurisdictions.  You could seek out an Australian lawyer (solicitor?) who specializes in international patent and trademark law to advise you.  I have no idea what this might cost, but in America, many lawyers will offer an initial consultation for free or some nominal amount.  Of course, the result of such a consultation might not be favorable, given the economics of the project and the lack of legal formalities followed to date.

FWIW, under US law, I think it likely that a motorcycle engine windage tray would be considered "prior art," and therefore unpatentable.  However, the specific design for a particular model motorcycle might be protectable under design patent, but that would require actually applying for, defending, and receiving such a patent.  That might make sense if the return on investment justified it.  This does not seem to be such a case.  Another possible source of protection is trademark law.  If the appearance of the product is directly copied, and the appearance is strongly associated with the original source so that the copy confuses the public as to its origin, there might be a trademark / trade dress infringement.

DISCLAIMER:  I am relying on my general knowledge of law, as this is not my regular area pf practice.  Patent/trademark law is highly specialized, and a member of the federal Patent Bar should be consulted for specific advice regarding these matters.

[Steph]

Mine.



Linky.

http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?q=Windage+plate.&f=d&Model=1&search=SEARCH

Not sure you would have a case in the eyes of the law...

[lucky phil]

Interesting Pete. First time I've seen one in a picture. To me and my marine engineering background and the terminology used its a windage plate not a baffle plate.  :BEER:

Small blocks have them cast into the engine design.  ;-T

The marine engines often have baffle plates. These primarily have vertical plates that stop the oil from swilling around the sump due to rolling and pitching. A lot depends on the shape of the sump but as many of the engines I'm familiar with are inline pistons the sump is usually longer than it is wide so there will be a vertical plate that partly obstructs the sump to delay the oil flow and thus destroy its rhythm. This will be left to right across the sump. Pick ups are usually pretty close to centre to minimise oil level fluctuation too. I have seen pick up lines supported onto these and if the baffle cracks or breaks oil starvation won't be far behind as the oil lines flexes to destruction.

Maybe you could modify yours to be the 'new improved model.' It would just take a 3 sided cut and a fold to do or an 90 angle piece bolted/riveted to the underneath.

I wonder who actually manufactures them?  ??? I now know who sells them besides you.

Rod

A windage tray is to prevent the windage off a spinning crank picking up sump oil and flinging it about the engine causing drag and oil control issues.
A baffle plate is designed to control the unwanted movement of the sump oil due to external forces.
Petes is a baffle plate, it's primary function is the latter not the former.
Ciao

[Vasco DG]

Not sure you would have a case in the eyes of the law...

That plate is the Tonti plate. It's the other one, the V11 one that so closely matches the one I've shown. I don't have a tonti plate around at the moment.

(Edit.) Whoops, sorry. For some reason that pic came up. If you open the link it should bring up pics of both plates, the V11 plate is the lower one.
Pete

[Vasco DG]

A windage tray is to prevent the windage off a spinning crank picking up sump oil and flinging it about the engine causing drag and oil control issues.
A baffle plate is designed to control the unwanted movement of the sump oil due to external forces.
Petes is a baffle plate, it's primary function is the latter not the former.
Ciao

I actually prefer the term someone else came up with of 'Sloppage Sheet'. While there are benefits in terms of reducing windage, (As long as the oil level is kept below the level of the plate.) it's primary function is to slow down the rearward surge of oil during heavy acceleration that on the 'Broad Sump' motors can and will expose the oil pick-up. This has been scientifically proven, it is not conjecture.

True windage plate arrangements usually incorporate screens to collect particulate oil droplets from the gas inside the case and scrapers and weirs to take oil off the crank webs. My plate is nowhere near as sophisticated and I've never suggested any form of performance benefit. It is simply a prophylactic device to prevent bearing damage.

Pete

[keuka4884]

I have a little experience with this. After applying for a patent the patent office assigns your idea to a patent lawyer. That person looks your patent over and determines whether it is patentable. If it is, you are issued a "patent pending". Limits might be placed on your patent based on other issued patents, but a patent pending means you're in the door. You could sue based on that alone.
A patent in the USA costs around 12-15K if you use a patent attorney. However, now we're talking being ripped off by someone in a foreign country. If you think your patent is worth big bucks, you must then apply for foreign patent protection. That is done in France and Japan. Those additional patents will cost you around $20K. Now you will be protected in most countries, not China. Interestingly, the best place to defend a patent in the US is to sue in a federal court based in Marshall, Texas. You just hire local attorneys to represent you. The single patent holder wins 80% of the time if it goes to court. Most companies settle out of court as the odds are stacked against them.
If you come up with a good idea, have two people sign a paper with the idea on it. You then have one year to file a patent or it will be in the public domain. A patent is protected for 20 years. The patent holder will have to pay 2 maintenance fees to keep it. They amount to around 2K.
In this case the idea has been in the public domain and so cannot be granted a patent.
I know this because I have 2 issued patents. I need a third to complete the idea but do not have the money at this time for the third one. I'm thinking of going the "Legal Zoom" route for the third one. Much cheaper. Sure looks like they ripped you off to me.
Another thing I would do is blog this issue on British motorcycle sites. Hell, I'd blog this on every motorcycle site I could find. That will put a hurt in their pocketbook.

[Steph]

Mine.



Linky.

http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?q=Windage+plate.&f=d&Model=1&search=SEARCH

Correction:



Pete, I was looking at the wrong one, I see what you mean now.

[Lannis]

Another thing I would do is blog this issue on British motorcycle sites. Hell, I'd blog this on every motorcycle site I could find. That will put a hurt in their pocketbook.

I agree, but I'd hope we'd wait until Pete talks to them and finds out what they're thinking.   One of three things can happen, and it won't backfire on us.

1) "Gutsibits" agrees that they've stepped on Pete's toes and makes it right with him in some way, and it's done.   Whew, glad we didn't "out" them on the internet, they're good guys!

2) "Gutsibits" tells Pete "Bugger off, there's nothing you can do to us", in which case we get up a collective commercial internet enema for the offenders.

3) Pete doesn't call, and just says "screw it, it's not worth it, I feel better just having talked about it", in which case we just drop it because it really isn't that important and we might be trying to hurt people that would have made it right if they had the chance.

That's just my opinion, offering it for consideration .....

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

I'm with you, Lannis. Right on.

[Turin]

+1

[Vasco DG]

I think I will approach them. I'm just trying to work out what way to do it.

[John Ulrich]

Trust me, it's prohibitively expensive to get a patent. For something that brings in beer money like this it's not even feasible. Even if you do, there are companies that couldn't care less, and will happily rip it off. Then, you have to defend your patent. That's expensive, too. Ed the Rocket Scientist has been through this many times.

I sold a patented product that was defended tooth and nail.  One day the company realized the floodgates into the USA had opened and they were spending more money in court then they were making.  They closed that division within the week!

[bad Chad]

Ok, now that I see what Pete is seeing, I agree, looks like an exact copy.