Author Topic: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?  (Read 9300 times)

Bill Hagan

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Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« on: February 02, 2015, 10:27:11 AM »
[WARNING: This is, as is my lamentable practice, a long post, so if you actually read it, don’t carp about its length.  I can’t help it, and you were on notice.  Go elsewhere now, or get a beer and read on.  :BEER:]

I ask this rifle question because I am puzzled by one we have over our mantle.  Modern kit or old original?

I have launched a few rounds downrange from all sorts of weapons over the years, but I am no expert in any, and am certainly ignorant of anything beyond the basics of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle, as, e.g., here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_rifle

Ours is a percussion model.  Maybe it always was, as the absence of a patch box would seem to indicate it was never a flintlock.  It may also simply be a modern kit.  Given the popularity of such, that is possible to even likely.  But, I’d like to know. 

I was going to post this inquiry on a website all about these beautiful and historic rifles — http://americanlongrifles.org — but decided that I’d ask here first as I have yet to see an off-topic question not met with a knowledgeable response.  Heck, we probably have one or more experts on 14th century Persian sewing thimbles here.  ;)

[BTW, check out the detailed and quite interesting posting rules over there: http://americanlongrifles.org/american-longrifles-privacy-policy-2.htm?action=recent.   :o]

Anyway, I have tried (and failed) to find the name engraved on the muzzle flat — “L. Miller” ?? — on the web or in the two classic works by Gluckman (American Gunmakers), https://ia700802.us.archive.org/14/items/gunmaker00satt/gunmaker00satt.pdf, and Kauffman (The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle), http://www.amazon.com/The-Pennsylvania-Kentucky-Rifle-Henry-Kauffman/dp/188329455X.

That is not necessarily dispositive, but is persuasive of a more modern origin.  Still, while I am certainly mindful of how today’s techniques have created all sorts of fake everythings, this one does have indicators of considerable age.

I am, btw, just fine with this being a modern kit version, as I have it there not as an heirloom or item of monetary value, but as a visible and honored representative piece of a great part of American history, including that of my (multi)great grandfather, James Hagan (1754 - 1829), who lived a scant 12 miles from our Virginia home and probably had something like this piece, albeit in an earlier flintlock version.  James served in the 2d Maryland Regiment of the Continental Army from 1776 to 1783, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Maryland_Regiment

So, here are some pix, and I ask the knowing here for comments and observations.

Thanks.

Bill

















Offline rocker59

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 10:32:51 AM »
They've been building "replicas" for at least a hundred years (kits and finished guns), so could be old, but not "original".

It should have maker and serial number on the barrel, somewhere.   May have to remove the barrel to see it.

I'm no expert, but the lock on that gun sure looks "modern" to me.  Screws, finishing, sights, etc.  And, not to mention the very good condition of the stock.

 

« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:37:34 AM by rocker59 »
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 10:41:16 AM »
Hopefully Greg Field will chime in here as he knows a ton more about muzzle loaders  than I do.

There have been a lot of folks making percussion rifles in recent years.  That means it probably is not old...but...from a reputable smith it can still make it quite valuable (several thousand $).

I also do agree with Mike that it appears more modern rather than 1800's.  How modern probably can't tell unless you can trace who made it.
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Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 10:56:39 AM »
Looks like a modernish replica, with a Siler lock. It's not necessarily a kit gun, though. Originals—in general—were much more refined, with thin lock panels and graceful lines and tapered-and-flared barrels.

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 10:56:39 AM »

Offline Gliderjohn

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 11:01:16 AM »
From what I can tell it appears to be a replica, but a quality one. Nice touch having the double set triggers.
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Bill Hagan

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 11:15:49 AM »
Looks like a modernish replica, with a Siler lock. It's not necessarily a kit gun, though. Originals—in general—were much more refined, with thin lock panels and graceful lines and tapered-and-flared barrels.

Greg,

Is there anything about anything you do not know?  A published author on Guzzis  ... and Harleys! 

And, as r59 notes, you are also a black-powder whiz, too.

FWIW, and there is no connection, I suppose, I live just over a small hill or two from Siler, Virginia, which is a general store with whimsical hours, and T-crossroads, and nothing else.  Siler Road is a delight: have some wonderful roads right out of our driveway.  See, e.g., this, which begins ˝ mile from where I sit as I type this: http://tinyurl.com/DMVRR-Silerwinder

Anyway, thanks to you and others for the info.  Figured that, but had no real clue.  It is a pretty piece up close, and while probably not as elegant as "the real thing," it still has a balanced heft and lithe look.  Suspect ancestor James might have been able to shoot it better than I ever could.   :D

As compensation for your consultation, I'll offer a spare bedroom and Guzzis of your choice if you ever get this way.  Would hope you'd also show me how make that mantle piece go "Bang!"  :D

Bill


Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 11:18:08 AM »
A couple things to add. First, nice toes, Bill. Second, that American Longrifles forum is a great one. I spend a ton of time there, learning from the expert builders (I am also a builder of long rifles).

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 11:21:11 AM »
Hi Bill,
 Here in the UK there used to be a company called "Coach Harness"  that sold a lot of replica arms, and up in Yorkshire "Henry Crank" still does. Mostly they originate from Italy or Spain, have a look under the barrel to see if there are any "proof" marks. Rules of proof are quite different here in Europe  to the USA, so if it was made this side of the sea
it should be marked - not  Guaranteed though. Each country has it's own marks, so if they are there you will know where it comes from. Looking at your photo I note that it is of the "Drum & Nipple" type, this was a common method of converting flint to percussion, but in doing so there were usually one or two holes left in the lock plate that don't seem to be there on yours.   So I agree with the previous posters  that it's probably a replica. Pedersoli  seem to be the main producers of such thing now a days. have a look at this link http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_104/rifles-frontier-frontier-percussion-model.html.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:39:37 AM by Jacks the lad »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 11:23:20 AM »
I was going to refer you to the Kaufmann book, but I see you already have it. I used to do muzzle loaders, too, and it appears to be a nicely done replica to me.
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Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 11:39:40 AM »
Greg,

Is there anything about anything you do not know?  A published author on Guzzis  ... and Harleys! 

And, as r59 notes, you are also a black-powder whiz, too.

FWIW, and there is no connection, I suppose, I live just over a small hill or two from Siler, Virginia, which is a general store with whimsical hours, and T-crossroads, and nothing else.  Siler Road is a delight: have some wonderful roads right out of our driveway.  See, e.g., this, which begins ˝ mile from where I sit as I type this: http://tinyurl.com/DMVRR-Silerwinder

Anyway, thanks to you and others for the info.  Figured that, but had no real clue.  It is a pretty piece up close, and while probably not as elegant as "the real thing," it still has a balanced heft and lithe look.  Suspect ancestor James might have been able to shoot it better than I ever could.   :D

As compensation for your consultation, I'll offer a spare bedroom and Guzzis of your choice if you ever get this way.  Would hope you'd also show me how make that mantle piece go "Bang!"  :D

Bill



Sadly, there is far too much I do not know. Thanks for the kind offer. I'd love nothing more than to spend time shooting a longrifle and riding Guzzis with you. That said, I am pretty knowledgable about blackpowder and longrifles. I hunt with a flintlock long rifle in Washington's rain forests, and it is no mean feat keeping one's powder dry while climbing up and over mountains in the dripping wet.

Until then, I can give you some tips on what to get and how to do it. IMO, if you do it right and do not stress out about making this old-style gun shoots with the velocity of a modern weapon, there are very few things as relaxing as an afternoon of shooting blackpowder. Also, if done right, clean-up of the weapon is not so bad, either, and cleanup will be necessary.

Re: Siler locks. They were the first really good reproduction flintlocks (he later also made percussion "conversion locks similar to the one on your rifle) available to home-builders, starting in the early 1960s. The builder of them, C. E. "Bud" Siler, copied lock design of a really elegant PA long rifle built in the late 1770s or early 1780s by the incomparably sophisticated long rifle maker Isaac Haines. So far as I know, Siler did not live in Siler, VA. Now, there are several dozen good lock designs, but Siler was the first.

Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 03:24:52 PM »
What I'd like to see in detail to help - detail photos of:
Hardware/fasteners
Sights to include dovetails
Muzzle crown

What I see is as stated above - generally modern.

Components, complete rifles and kits often present interesting assemblages of U.S, Spanish, Italian, Turkish and other parts in the form of complete rifles.

I've built several from cast-off parts, estate sale drawer findings, and clapped out firearms. I know folks will come across them in the future and wonder: "Now, what's this then..."
One of my favorite focuses is on restoring and utilizing old fasteners found in furniture, machinery and other firearms. Fussy but satisfying.

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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 04:31:55 PM »
  Many of the old original rifles had hand forged barrels that were octagon and tapered for the full length.  I know of no replica barrels that are tapered.
  That is one clue.   I have fired an original Hawken rifle with tapered barrel in .50 caliber.  It was very accurate with a 70 grain 2F charge.
  At the breech on the barrel was a small white metal dot.  I was told that it was a blow out plug made of a softer metal so that it would blow out to relieve pressure in case of an over load or plugged bore, thereby preventing loss of face to the shooter.  I do not know what kind of metal it was but was told it was
 platinum but do not know for sure.  I do know that I have never seen a replica rifle with a blowout plug.
 If your weapon has a tapered octagon barrel it is very likely to be original.  If it has a blowout plug ( they are less than an eighth of an inch in diameter)
 It is very probable that it is original.
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 04:35:47 PM »
I knew Greg would help  :)

I have yet to get a good muzzle loader.  Mainly because if I don't build it, it will cost a pretty penny.  Heck, even if I do build it, it will cost a pretty penny :)

You can get the tapered or swamped barrels from some of the makers.  They just cost a bit more.  ;)

I'd love to do a replica of the "Rigby" target rifle (not really Rigby, but, that's the name people associate with them).  I applaud those who fire flintlocks.  Have done that and I really don't like that flash in the face :)

Bill, you should get out and shoot it.  It is fun.  Did you ever go to any of the demonstrations by the West Point Museum folks?  Those guys did great ones on Revolutionary War and Civil War weapons.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 04:46:25 PM »
There would be no serial# unless it was built on a military contract.  Serial#'s are a more recent feature, although I have some precussion conversions to cartridge pieces that have serial#s -- Belgian mostly, (and not the good knd   :'( )  iirc.

The giveaway that it's a replica (for me) is that the screws are wrong.  Screws were handmade and contoured to 'fit' their unique locations when properly tightened.  Also, I agree that the bright metal is wrong.  It's still a pretty piece though.

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 04:57:48 PM »
Quote
 I applaud those who fire flintlocks.

They'll teach you not to flinch.  ;D

A long time ago, I used to shoot at Friendship, Indiana.. the big muzzle loader thing then. Met many interesting characters there, too.  ;D Don't know if it still goes on or not. Like Jim, I had the opportunity to shoot an original Hawken. There is just something about them (like Guzzis) that is hard to explain. Platinum? I wouldn't think so, but I've been wrong before.  ;)
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 10:07:52 PM »
My meager experience with flintlocks has been:  load powder, ball, and wad; prime pan.  Check flint and striker, cock, pull trigger, squint against flash, smoke, and burning powder embers as the pan ignites (hence the term "flash in the pan).  Hold over target as I count 1001 . . 1002 . .100BANG!  It never fires on the same count after dropping the hammer, and you have to continue your follow-through on the sheer faith that at some point a ball will launch downrange.

Our favorite thing to do with them was stuff them full of powder to within a couple inches of the barrel end, and fire with a wad, only.  They send columns of smoke above treetop level, right behind a flaming bit of wad.  Made the neighbor's black cats on the 4rth of July seem rather lame.   :D

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 10:22:10 PM »
             Thanks for the  http://americanlong rifles.org   reference, Bill. It has sent me on an interesting journey ;D
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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 10:24:12 PM »
I have an original Edwin Wesson (Massachusetts) half-stock percussion rifle from the latter 1830s.  It's in very nice condition but not anywhere near as nice as yours.  I have to agree with Rocker; these original long guns were USED!  There were no "garage queens".  You owned one--you used it, and the wear and tear attendant to such use soon became obvious.  The wood stock usually gets the brunt of the dings and nicks.  Yours appears to have suffered none of these indignities, so my take is that it's a decorative reproduction.  

You might take it to a gunsmith and he may be able to confirm the age and authenticity of your long rifle, or at least point you to a colleague who can.  

The percussion cap was invented around 1803 and flintlocks gradually lost favor to the new ignition style, with protection from the elements and very rapid ignition, unlike a flintlock design.  I don't see that the percussion design would cost more than a flintlock.  In fact, having less parts it should cost less, or at least the same, resulting in no valid reason to stick to the older design.  Still, it was reported that many flintlock die-hards refused to change and were often seen wearing red suspenders, smoking corn-cob pipes, and priming the frizzen pan of their older design locks.

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Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 11:34:41 PM »
I have an original Edwin Wesson (Massachusetts) half-stock percussion rifle from the latter 1830s.  It's in very nice condition but not anywhere near as nice as yours.  I have to agree with Rocker; these original long guns were USED!  There were no "garage queens".  You owned one--you used it, and the wear and tear attendant to such use soon became obvious.  The wood stock usually gets the brunt of the dings and nicks.  Yours appears to have suffered none of these indignities, so my take is that it's a decorative reproduction.  

You might take it to a gunsmith and he may be able to confirm the age and authenticity of your long rifle, or at least point you to a colleague who can.  

The percussion cap was invented around 1803 and flintlocks gradually lost favor to the new ignition style, with protection from the elements and very rapid ignition, unlike a flintlock design.  I don't see that the percussion design would cost more than a flintlock.  In fact, having less parts it should cost less, or at least the same, resulting in no valid reason to stick to the older design.  Still, it was reported that many flintlock die-hards refused to change and were often seen wearing red suspenders, smoking corn-cob pipes, and priming the frizzen pan of their older design locks.

Ralph

Flints were plentiful in the back woods in much of tube west. Percussion caps were not so plentiful there. That's the main reason flintlocks were still relatively common into the 1830s.

Sounds as if you have a very fine weapon. Care to share some pix?

Offline rocker59

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 11:43:45 PM »

The percussion cap was invented around 1803 and flintlocks gradually lost favor to the new ignition style, with protection from the elements and very rapid ignition, unlike a flintlock design.  I don't see that the percussion design would cost more than a flintlock.  In fact, having less parts it should cost less, or at least the same, resulting in no valid reason to stick to the older design.  Still, it was reported that many flintlock die-hards refused to change and were often seen wearing red suspenders, smoking corn-cob pipes, and priming the frizzen pan of their older design locks.

Ralph

Flints were plentiful in the back woods in much of tube west. Percussion caps were not so plentiful there. That's the main reason flintlocks were still relatively common into the 1830s.

Sounds as if you have a very fine weapon. Care to share some pix?

Yeah.  If there wasn't a store to buy caps, then the flintlock would be the right choice.  That's why westerners were still using flintlocks long after percussion caps became available in the east.

Same thing with metallic cartridges.  By the early 1870s, metallic cartridge guns and ammuniton were widely available.  If you had a store nearby.  If not, then you kept using your percussion cap guns, since you could buy caps, balls, and powder in bulk.  And anybody who you met on the trail would have the same caps and powder, if you needed to trade for some.  And, you likely had a bullet mold for your chosen caliber, so keeping a percussion gun fed was much easier in the wide open spaces of the west.
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Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 11:55:17 PM »
My meager experience with flintlocks has been:  load powder, ball, and wad; prime pan.  Check flint and striker, cock, pull trigger, squint against flash, smoke, and burning powder embers as the pan ignites (hence the term "flash in the pan).  Hold over target as I count 1001 . . 1002 . .100BANG!  It never fires on the same count after dropping the hammer, and you have to continue your follow-through on the sheer faith that at some point a ball will launch downrange.

Our favorite thing to do with them was stuff them full of powder to within a couple inches of the barrel end, and fire with a wad, only.  They send columns of smoke above treetop level, right behind a flaming bit of wad.  Made the neighbor's black cats on the 4rth of July seem rather lame.   :D

With a properly tuned lock with a sharp flint and clear touch hole and properly filled flash pan, there is really very little delay between pulling the trigger and ignition—more like a flam than any real countable delay.

You do not want it acting like a fuse. The touch hole needs to be clear of powder, the flint needs to be sharp, and the pan needs 4F powder to a level below the touch hole. You want to set off the powder in the pan, and the radiant heat from that goes through the touch hole at the speed of light and sets off the main charge. Get all that right, and flintlocks go off quickly and every time you pull the trigger.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2015, 12:53:14 AM »
I was exaggerating a little there, Greg.   :D 



I'm pretty sure the L MILLER on the strap in the pic is an owner, not a mfgr.  Way too crudely done for a piece with jeweled side plates.  Did they jewel sideplates on utility pieces back then? All of mine with decorated plates are woodland etchings or pastoral scenes.  Some have pin etching and logos.  None have jeweling.

Now a brief essay.  It's tangent to the topic, and an opinion piece, so feel free to skip it.

Percussion was a quantum leap forward in technology that backfired in a way.  Match and flintlocks could be fired by simple friction as long as the powder was dry.  So as long as you have some powder, some ball, rock or nails to eject from it and something to make a spark, you could defend yourself.  And an educated man in those days could find or make those consumables -- including powder -- from scratch.  

The percussion cap gave the shooter an instant dependence on store-bought components.  You're not going to find that stuff lying around like you do flint.  So for all the same sorts of reasons that the indigenous folks held on to bow and arrow long after firearms arrived, there was a big overlap in the history of flintlocks and everything else black powder.  

What really put the end to flint was the evolution of the percussion cap into the rimfire cartridge.  Now you've got the same dependence on the general store, but you suddenly gain convenience, portability, weatherproofing, and consistency along with a huge rate-of-fire advantage.  A guy can reload and fire 12 rounds of brass cartridges in the time it takes to set up the next flintlock shot, even with paper cartridges instead of powderhorns -- provided it's not raining.  And with the need to slather a percussion cylinder in animal fat to waterproof it, or do the same muzzle loading as the flint made the practical advantages of percussion minimal and somewhat smelly, gritty, and gooey, all at the same time.

When the crimp-ignited rimfire evolved into centerfire, in itself a bit of a throwback since the primer is a percussion cap where rimfire has the primer chemical swished around inside the cartridge  bottom, suddenly each of the prior advantages became enormous.  A centerfire shooter could reload his own from his own manufactured bits and storebought primers and have an endless supply of reliable, dry, fast-feeding bullets.  

When the safer and more powerful smokeless powders replaced black, those homebuilt rounds became tuneable.  In the black powder days your cartridge was capped with such-and-such caliber and held so much powder.  So a 30.30 was a 30 caliber bullet capping a cartridge that held 30 grains of black powder.  If you wanted to put more powder behind it, you bought a 30.45 or 30.60 or whatever (not sure those calibers actually existed, but you get the idea).  The modern 30.30 is the same size casing as the black powder ancestor, but you might only load it with 12 - 20 grains of a given modern powder.  Size per grain arguments aside, you can see that's a fair amount of empty space in the casing.  

So people hopped them up.  And blew them up.  And when they didn't blow up the bullets didn't respond well to the extra horsepower driving them.  And the guzzisti went hmmmm.  Where's the advantage, when I have to buy the stuff that's making me go owe, and the stuff that works is free, if not just a bit stinky?

So the calibers and firearms most popular with black powder didn't do so well with smokeless.  For example, Damascus barrels tended to unravel with vigor when used with smokeless.  I have some really nice old 8, 10, and 12-ga percussion and early brass cartridge (centerfire) SxS that I don't dare shoot.  Another example is the 45LC, originally a black powder cartridge.  With modern powder there's no way you can make the ballistics work out as well as they do for the .45ACP, one of the first conversions of caliber to modern powder.  I don't think anyone makes a .35 rimfire anymore, which was one of the first lever gun offerings (you could stack 15 in the tube and they didn't kick much).

So black powder, like the old igniter systems, and therefore classic percussion guns, remained popular to the guzzisti of the time until the next evolution -- calibers and frames designed around modern powder.  When we learned how to throw tiny (by comparison) bullets really fast and really far-- I can load hunting rounds in .270/135gr to ~3000fps and reach out to 600yd with consistency -- black powder could no longer compete.  Unless your gun barrel diameter is like 16 inches or more.  Then black powder remains competitive as hell.

So if the OP's gun is original, it's a part of history.  If it's not, then it's an attractive tribute to the old school.


Offline Greg Field

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2015, 01:17:04 AM »
That's a nice summation, RK.

Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2015, 02:29:57 AM »
I've had about a dozen muzzle loaders in my life but the only one that was a flintlock was an enormous .80 cal. pistol.
 I didn't have a bullet mold for it but could load it with 12 gauge shotgun slugs.  Accurate it was not, but it was fun.
 I've had several single barrel pistols, one of which had a bore size that perfectly fit a power piston plastic wad for .410.
 I would load the powder then insert the plastic wad flush to the end of the barrel.  Then fill the wad flush with number six bird shot and push it down the bore followed by an over shot wad.  A number 11 cap on the nipple and it was ready.  It worked well on grouse, rabbit, and hand thrown clays.
 It had just less than a foot of barrel and so was effective only at close range, 15 yards or less.  It was almost as effective as my .410 contender pistol.
 I also had a double barrel .44 pistol with rifled barrels.  It was reasonably accurate and a lot of fun.
 I had a number of percussion rifles mostly in .50 cal. my favorite.  One of these I used to win muzzle loader shoots at my club.
 It was as accurate at 100 yards as most centerfire hunting rifles.
  All of these I lost in a fire in 1995.  I have felt the loss ever since, even more than the loss of all the centerfire weapons that also burned up.
Sasquatch Jim        Humanoid, sort of.

Offline not-fishing

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Re: Any Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle Experts Here?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2015, 12:36:43 PM »
The question I have is how does it shoot?    :pop
Griso 1100
Rosso Corsa Lemans
1/2 a V50 III (with my son)
V65 SP - Finished but the Dyna died so it's non-op'd
'75 850T with sidecar - a new project and adventure

 

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