Author Topic: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium  (Read 12077 times)

Online Tom H

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #180 on: September 05, 2022, 12:27:46 PM »
I don't think I see the painted marks on the cam gear. There is what looks like a painted tooth and some paint on the crank gear about where the cam gear rides. The only cam gears I have seen have 2 teeth painted.

Charlie?

Tom
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #181 on: September 05, 2022, 12:50:35 PM »







Other than just that tiny bit in two teeth I donít see anything significant either.

I don't think I see the painted marks on the cam gear. There is what looks like a painted tooth and some paint on the crank gear about where the cam gear rides. The only cam gears I have seen have 2 teeth painted.

Charlie?

Tom

Offline cliffrod

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #182 on: September 05, 2022, 01:11:40 PM »
I appreciate your understanding. Fortunately everything on this bike has come apart cleanly... so I was probably more resistant to pushing my luck this time.

Hoping it all goes together as well!

Youíre doing a great job.  Speaking from personal experience, some (many?) of us could have benefited from a more cautious approach on many such things in the past.  Live and learn..  Iím very happy & impressed to see you fixing your engine properly in the beginning.  I wish I had known that I needed to do more than just address the cylinders because I would have done it before things went seriously wrong on my bike..   

As conscientious as you are, the going-back-together should be fine, too.  Slow down and ask questions here whenever needed.  I think youíll be very happy in the end, even when the end is further away than we think it will be.   
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Online Tom H

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #183 on: September 05, 2022, 03:24:32 PM »
Go here and scroll down. There is a picture of the paint that would have been like my Eldo and Ambo.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99057.0

Maybe there are different ways of marking?

Edit: Look close at "Your" cam gear. In Your first pic it looks like a touch of paint about 12:30. Almost looks like a center punch mark there as well? If you look just on the crank gear, there looks to be paint about half way down on the left of the painted tooth.

Maybe those are the marks?

Tom
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 03:32:27 PM by Tom H »
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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #183 on: September 05, 2022, 03:24:32 PM »

Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #184 on: September 06, 2022, 10:03:56 AM »
Go here and scroll down. There is a picture of the paint that would have been like my Eldo and Ambo.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99057.0

Maybe there are different ways of marking?

Edit: Look close at "Your" cam gear. In Your first pic it looks like a touch of paint about 12:30. Almost looks like a center punch mark there as well? If you look just on the crank gear, there looks to be paint about half way down on the left of the painted tooth.

Maybe those are the marks?

Tom

Ok thanks... I did see a little paint here and there so will take a closer look. I'm waiting on an electric impact wrench I ordered because I could not get that gear nut loose.



Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #185 on: September 12, 2022, 07:00:10 AM »
Ok got the gear nut off... so before I yank the gears... considering those marks is there anything I have to remember about where they are before I remove the gears? Or will I just be using them when I put them back in?

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #186 on: September 12, 2022, 07:58:27 AM »
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but before I do *anything* having to do with timing, I put the left (S) cylinder on TDC ready to fire. If you have already done that.. "nevermind.."  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #187 on: September 12, 2022, 08:21:46 AM »
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but before I do *anything* having to do with timing, I put the left (S) cylinder on TDC ready to fire. If you have already done that.. "nevermind.."  :smiley:

Oops... crank's off already... lol. But I guess I could pop it back in and do that.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 05:42:51 PM by Richiez22908 »

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #188 on: September 13, 2022, 02:40:28 PM »
I did on my 73 and gave me great piece of mind, especially when we found this.

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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #189 on: September 15, 2022, 07:32:42 AM »
I did on my 73 and gave me great piece of mind, especially when we found this.



Hey thanks... but what did you do, put the crank back on? ...and what is that?

Online Dave Swanson

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #190 on: September 15, 2022, 08:39:17 AM »
...and what is that?

If you don't know already you will be finding out soon.  That's one of the lifters. 
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #191 on: September 15, 2022, 09:49:26 AM »
Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA can reface the lifters for ~ $5 ea.
Charlie

Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #192 on: September 15, 2022, 08:05:11 PM »
Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA can reface the lifters for ~ $5 ea.

Yeah haven't gotten the cam out yet... but will certainly check them!

Charlie, anything I need to note about the alignment of those gears and the marks before removing them? Do I need to reattach the crank and get to TDC on one side and then make note?

Thank you all again!

« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 08:14:38 PM by Richiez22908 »

Offline redrider90

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
« Reply #193 on: September 15, 2022, 10:36:09 PM »
No no, as Charlie said, 26mm. With that said, I use the same as my axle nut size 27mm. Seems to work perfect for both.

And congrats on the family bonding over a bike!

Tom


1-1/16" socket is 0.013" less than 27mm, so the *standard* socket provides a snug fit on the metric hex.
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #194 on: October 09, 2022, 12:43:28 PM »
So finally all apart. Taking the crank, cam and heads to a machine shop tomorrow to get them checked, repaired as needed. None look very bad... oil pump(unless I'm missing something) looks pristine.Lifters do not... assuming these have to be replaced.









« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 05:06:19 PM by Richiez22908 »

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #195 on: October 09, 2022, 03:33:05 PM »
New lifters(or resurfaced) for sure.The rest needs measuring.

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #196 on: October 09, 2022, 03:35:27 PM »
Cam followers can be surface ground, crank can be miced and if need be reground, oil pump shafts and casting bores can be miced for clearance spec and you could get the cam reground to a performance spec if you choose.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 04:11:04 PM by Canuck750 »
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #197 on: October 09, 2022, 05:07:32 PM »
Cam followers can be surface ground, crank can be mixed and if need be reground, oil pump shafts and casting bores can be mixed for clearance spec and you could get the cam reground to a performance spec if you choose.

So take that pump apart and measure the shafts and the bores for the shafts?

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #198 on: October 10, 2022, 03:43:14 AM »
Yup. Measurements and method in the Guzzi workshop manual.At least they are in the 850 T 3 edition.

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #199 on: October 10, 2022, 04:14:47 PM »
So take that pump apart and measure the shafts and the bores for the shafts?

Yes, the shop manual for the V7 Sport lists the shaft and bore measurements / tolerances. A worn out pump, low oil pressure, will negate all the investment you have put into the bike. Most of the non filter Guzzi engines I have rebuilt had worn out oil pumps, V7 Sport, 750S, a couple Ambassadors, Eldorado, all had sloppy shafts to pump body.
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #200 on: October 17, 2022, 08:01:27 AM »
Yes, the shop manual for the V7 Sport lists the shaft and bore measurements / tolerances. A worn out pump, low oil pressure, will negate all the investment you have put into the bike. Most of the non filter Guzzi engines I have rebuilt had worn out oil pumps, V7 Sport, 750S, a couple Ambassadors, Eldorado, all had sloppy shafts to pump body.

Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 08:22:35 AM by Richiez22908 »

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #201 on: October 17, 2022, 02:55:21 PM »
The manual suggests using feeler gauges if my memory is right.The impeller obviously has to be in place.

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #202 on: October 18, 2022, 11:43:27 AM »
Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

As French says; feeler gauges, I would take the oil pump to the shop that is measuring your other components, if the main and shell bearings show deposits of chrome or scoring from chrome it's likely the pump has suffered wear as well. Pumps are not cheap but neither is the effect of poor oil pressure.

One other thing to look at is the oil pressure blow off valve, probably fine but check it anyways.

I fitted a cheap oil pressure gauge to my Eldorado in place of the idiot light sensor and its kind of reassuring to see the healthy pressure the engine maintains, as low as 30 at idle then as high as 60 under load. I got another gauge that I have used for testing with a short piece of hose I have spun on other Guzzi big twins to read the oil pressure before and after rebuilds. I went to Summit racing to get the fittings for metric into the block and the adapter fitting and hose for the gauge.  It only take a couple minutes to remove the oil pressure sensor and for the gauge.



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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #203 on: October 18, 2022, 10:01:19 PM »
Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

The holes the gear shafts run in can be measured with a telescopic gauge such as these:
https://www.zoro.com/mitutoyo-telescope-gage-127-19mm-155-128/i/G0970938/
and a micrometer.

The shafts and gears are measured with a micrometer also. The depth of the pump body is measured with a depth gauge.
Charlie

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #204 on: October 19, 2022, 08:34:12 AM »
The holes the gear shafts run in can be measured with a telescopic gauge such as these:
https://www.zoro.com/mitutoyo-telescope-gage-127-19mm-155-128/i/G0970938/
and a micrometer.

The shafts and gears are measured with a micrometer also. The depth of the pump body is measured with a depth gauge.

A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.
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Online Canuck750

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #205 on: October 19, 2022, 12:06:06 PM »
A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.

That is damn good advice Chuck!

I thought I understood tolerances from 40 years in the architectural business and knowing how to read a vernier gauge from drafting by hand with a drafting machine, but getting into mechanical precision is a whole other universe and I know my capabilities to accurately read a micrometer, especialy a fine inside gauge are limited at best.
In my world the tolerances I was used to were huge in comparison, an example; a concrete floor slab will typically be specified with a flat tolerance of 1/8" in 10 feet. A vertical tolerance of a cast in place or steel structure can sound enormous,  a 15 storey apartment building I worked on was drifting 3"+ over the 15 storeys top to ground and that was well within tolerance.
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #206 on: October 19, 2022, 07:06:51 PM »
A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.

Yeah I know what one is but still gonna run it down to the machine shop. Bringing them new valves and guides and clips anyway.

Thanks for the advice!


Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #207 on: October 20, 2022, 08:22:19 AM »
Yeah I know what one is but still gonna run it down to the machine shop. Bringing them new valves and guides and clips anyway.

Thanks for the advice!

I didn't mean to say you didn't.. but.. there is a learned "feel" in precision measuring. It is *easy* to be off by a half thousandth.. or more.. without considerable practice.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Richiez22908

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #208 on: October 22, 2022, 12:29:47 PM »
Bought new valves, guides, clips and running them down to the shop for install in the heads. Apparently old weren't too bad just recommended to replace due to corrosion from sitting so may years. Gonna ru. the oil pump down as well.

My daughter and I removed all remnants of the old gaskets on everything and cleaned up all the surfaces.

I'm afraid to ask but, while waiting on the crank, heads, cam at the shop... should I open the transmission up and take a look? If so... what am I looking for? It seemed to function well.

Also... it still had a leak that appeared to come from the rear main seal, but it had been replaced and looks good(Gonna replace the bearing and have new seal so doesnt matter). But someone mentioned other things to look at inside the bell housing that could be the source of the leak instead... breaker tube? Anything else in there I should check or reseal?

Thank you all again so much! I'm in South Florida and the weather is just turning great for riding... so its time too get this thing back together!! So you'll see alot more action not his thread now till its done.


Offline smdl

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Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
« Reply #209 on: October 22, 2022, 01:31:07 PM »


Also... it still had a leak that appeared to come from the rear main seal, but it had been replaced and looks good(Gonna replace the bearing and have new seal so doesnt matter). But someone mentioned other things to look at inside the bell housing that could be the source of the leak instead... breaker tube? Anything else in there I should check or reseal?


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