Author Topic: V7 III water in final drive oil  (Read 4621 times)

Offline Vagrant

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V7 III water in final drive oil
« on: June 25, 2018, 07:16:48 AM »
When I dumped all of the oils at 5800 miles the final drive was like slightly brown sour cream. I had ridden in heavy rain for 250 miles or so but that's no excuse for a somewhat modern bike. I see from past posts I'm not alone. anybody find a cure? that box appears to be sealed by bearings and seals so it shouldn't be leaking back from the drive shaft and there is no oil leak. 
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 09:40:18 AM »
Was anything in there at the 1st service?  Vent on the filler?
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2018, 09:57:36 AM »
nothing but then the first 750 got put on in 2 days. I took the vent off and looked at it and all I can figure is there was so much rain it pushed itself right in there or there is a constant suction with the gears spinning and it sucked it in.
Unless somebody has a better idea i think i will make a cap to go over the whole vent but still let it breathe. like an umbrella.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 11:28:55 AM »
I would put a hose on it to up behind sidecover or frame.
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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 11:28:55 AM »

Offline Muzz

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2018, 04:08:32 PM »
Pete Roper some years back designed and built an elegant solution for venting the CARC rear drives out of stainless tube and braid and venting it I believe under the seat.

I think the problem of water in the oil showed when cold water cooled the diff down it sucked water past the seals which were one way; designed to keep oil in but not keep water out if a vacuum suddenly developed.
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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2018, 05:05:26 PM »
On a vented box water won't get past the seals. If there is a pressure differential between two places the fluid will always take the path of least resistance, with a vented bevel or gearbox that will be the vent.

The long and the short of it is that the vent, which has been used on multiple bikes in multiple locations, is crap. Add to this that in some circumstances when riding in rain water spray seems to get aimed at it somehow and you end up with the perfect setting for the bevelbox getting water in.

As with the CARC and the V11 gearbox, both of which are prone to water intrusion, the answer is to get a speed flow fitting or banjo and bolt and a length of braided hose and make a remote breather that can be run up the swingarm and then up to vent under the seat or tank. End of problem.

Pete

Offline Muzz

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2018, 11:03:40 PM »
I think it was sign216 that mentioned a blocked breather on his smallblock.

Mine always had a perfectly clean vent area; after reading about blocked vents I took mine out, soaked it, blew it out and generally made sure it was clear. Now after about a 1000km trip at "reasonable" speeds it now shows a very light oil mist around it so I suspect that it was blocked. Although I have never had oil on the tire and the pinion has always been clean when I lube the splines I suspect that it was not actually venting properly.

Maybe enough to suck water in when cold? Dunno. Have ridden through some real shit weather and never had any sign of water in it. Never been in water over the diff.

Either way, my view is that it is a worthwhile thing to add to your maintenance list.
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 06:44:04 AM »
I'm sure Pete has the right permanent fix. I did make a rain hat for it but when I moved this winter after 25 years in the same house I threw away about 3 sets of former brake lines. big mistake as usual.
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 01:01:56 PM »
Is there water in your swing-arm?

In the past, there were several times I rode my V7 a lot in heavy rain, only to discover that the next time I went to change the tire, about 3 tablespoons of water would pour out of the swing-arm when I took the final drive off.  The final drive oil would be greenish/brown with water contamination.  My theory is that this water in the swing-arm sits against the drive shaft seal and works its way into the final drive.

I sealed the rubber boot on the spring arm with silicon goop.  Ever since then I have not had water in the swing-arm, nor have I had weird colored final drive oil, despite many hours of riding in very heavy rain.

I remain suspicious of that exposed vent cap on top of the drive, but cannot say that it lets water it. 
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 07:09:31 AM »
revival time. I finally got a whole 11 miles of rain and about 20 miles of wet roads after the below fix. pure sour cream again. the vent on the top is wide open clear. you can blow through it without any pressure.
now after last time I looked for leaks below at the boot and see no oil. however in true money saving measure they used a zip tie for the front clamp instead of the nice metal clamp on my 2015 V7. no normal metal clamps are to be found at 5 different auto parts and a appliance store. I did discover that a nice one time use clamp for a CV joint works great. i pulled back the front boot where it goes onto the rear of the transmission and cleaned it as good as possible. then i used gasket maker to help seal it and put it back together and let it cure. now there is a tiny spot of oil where the bottom of the boot is in the front so the silicone didn't do as well as i expected but there is still no excuse for the leak. if the 2015 doesn't and most others don't why is this one.so after changing the oil today and taking a nice mountain ride I got to thinking, scary I know. anyway when I got home I pulled the vent from the 2015 and it seems to have a valve in it. when screwing a rubber hose over the threads you can blow through it but there is a tiny bit of pressure needed to do it. no pressure is needed on the 17. so maybe it never had a check valve in it.
What would really help is if someone with a 17-18 would pull theirs out an see if it free flowing or if a bit of pressure is needed. I've never had water in the 15 but then again I'm not sure it's ever been in the rain. so far it's spent it's life in Az.
Thanks in advance.
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 07:26:26 AM »
When my Stelvio was new, I experienced the same thing coming home from Virginia. I bought Pete's vent kit he worked up and never had any more trouble with it.

My guess is that the rear drive was suddenly cooled down by the heavy rain. As the cooler outside temps and water cooled the rear drive, it drew the water in through the vent.

In any case, Pete came up with a brilliant solution that works well. I'm glad I got it.

John Henry

Offline malik

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 05:05:20 PM »
In the 300,000km I've put on both V7s, I've had water in the final drive twice, once each on both bikes and at around the same time - on our trip around Oz, and on the oil change after having spent a day in driving Tassie west coast rain. Both bikes collect water in the swing arm, despite the silicone and the metal clamps. No attention has ever been paid to the vents. The bikes have been through similar rains (although not quite so relentless) before & since with no such result. So, sometimes water gets in, & mostly it doesn't. Hey, it's Italian. I'll keep an eye on it & take precautions/preventive action anyway - seeing as the Special is now in bits & the Classic going to be soon, it's the ideal opportunity.
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2020, 01:34:31 PM »
Hope itís OK to continue on this thread.

Iím planning to replace the oil breather bolt with the banjo & bolt solution. Pete mentions to use a braided hose - is there are a particular reason?
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Offline HarveyMushman

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2020, 05:55:52 PM »
Hope itís OK to continue on this thread.

Iím planning to replace the oil breather bolt with the banjo & bolt solution. Pete mentions to use a braided hose - is there are a particular reason?

Less likely to be damaged, and it looks better than a random bit of rubber hose. 
Tim

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2020, 07:36:23 PM »
I want to do the same conversion.  My rear drive oil looked like coffee with too much cream.  When I did the conversion on my Stelvio this problem was solved.  Too bad Pete got out of that side business because the need is still there.
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Offline greer

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2020, 05:41:57 AM »
Would anybody have a picture of Pete's solution?  Is this a similar kit?

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3208

Sarah

Sarah '21 V7 Special, '17 XT250, '17 V9 Roamer sold August 2021, '16 V7 II Stone sold September 2021, '08 Nevada Classic sold August 2020 
Doug '21 V85TT, '05 Sportster Roadster, '13 XT250

Offline Dirk_S

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2020, 06:07:56 AM »
Sarah, I saw that offered too, but the price, whoah. My own initial (cursory) search didnít come across any Guzzi-specific pics, but I did find this. Simple banjo fitting with a bolt, and hose leading along the swing arm and up into the air box in a way that allows for some flexing and with nothing tight.

Iím not sure if models vary, but my V7IIís breather bolt is a 10x1.5



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Offline greer

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Offline HarveyMushman

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2020, 06:33:09 AM »
This is what I bought for my Stelvio's vent:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003CGSS76/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011W26J5O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That hose is no longer available but you get the idea.  Just run the open end of the hose along the swingarm and up under the seat, with some sort of simple filter wrapped around the end.  I used a scrap of threadbare cloth diaper. 

My V7 III is more of a fair weather machine but I'll probably put something similar together for it just to be safe.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 06:35:46 AM by HarveyMushman »
Tim

Offline Dirk_S

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2020, 06:46:18 AM »
Something like this, maybe:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TRITDT-Banjo-Bolt-Kit-M10x1-5mm-w-1-8mm-Hole-SUBARU-TD04L-RHF5-Turbo-Oil-Feed/222595676853?hash=item33d3bc7ab5:g:QikAAOSwtnpaHRPr

Sarah

Yup. Just make sure it fits your bike (check your Guzzi bolt part# against the V7IIís, maybe theyíre the same, or measure your boltís size and thread count). I bought one of those too, but decided I didnít want the coupler end, so I bought another instead with a hose barb. If you or anyone else wants the couple-end banjo & bolt, I can mail it out!.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 06:59:58 AM by Dirk_S »
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2020, 06:46:47 AM »
interesting this popped up again. I have to change the rear tire today and was going to jury rig something while I was down there. instead i just bought 2 of the above for $22. the second is for a new V85 just in case it needs one too.
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Offline blu guzz

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2020, 11:03:41 AM »
i don't think you will need it as the rear drive appears to be enclosed on the V85 as it was on my 1400.  there is a small rubber flap that provides access where the add hole is.  The 1400 did not have this access and you did the fluid each time you got a tire change because the tire had to come off in that model to access the add oil nut.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:04:43 AM by blu guzz »
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Offline greer

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2020, 05:23:00 AM »
Thanks for the thread revival.  Doug and I hope to travel on our bikes, so we probably need to address this.  We've ridden thru miserable rain more times than I can count.

Sarah
Sarah '21 V7 Special, '17 XT250, '17 V9 Roamer sold August 2021, '16 V7 II Stone sold September 2021, '08 Nevada Classic sold August 2020 
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2020, 05:35:34 PM »
As I said earlier in the thread, my final drive stopped getting water in it after I sealed the rubber boot on the swing arm.  I have not modified the vent on top of the final drive.

I can confirm that I have not gotten any water into the final drive since fixing the boot, even though I have ridden through some real frog-drowners for hours at a time. 

Personally, I don't think it's the vent.  Or at least my vent doesn't seem to be the leak source. 
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2020, 05:44:36 PM »
Iíll certainly find out if the vent mod helps or not. I drive quite a bit in rain, and the bikeís always kept outside. My dealer recommended I halve my final drive oil replacement, and I usually wind up draining out a mocha milkshake. If it occurs next time, Iím going straight after that boot with some RTV per your recommendation, SmithSwede!
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2020, 10:23:13 AM »
I did the best I could with silicone sealer on the boot. it's a bit hard to get to the back side but it made no difference on my 2017.
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Offline lorengo70

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2020, 10:13:03 AM »
I did the best I could with silicone sealer on the boot. it's a bit hard to get to the back side but it made no difference on my 2017.


Hi Vagrant, been having the same problem with my V7 II. So, you are saying that sealing the boot did not work for you? (so I assume its the vent then). Did the banjo fix solve the problem then?
 
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2020, 01:51:55 PM »
Some thoughts.  Maybe you havenít gotten all the original water out of the final drive.  So when you drain it, it comes out water contaminated, and so you assume it is still leaking.  But maybe thatís just old water.   

Maybe try draining, filling with a cheap dino oil, ride a few hundred miles in dry weather, and see what it looks like when you drain it.  Keep doing that until you have gotten all the water out and the oil drains clear.

I think the definitive test is to pull the final drive off the swing arm.  No big deal.  Is there water or rust in the swing arm? There was on mine.  If there is water in the swing arm, thatís from the boot, not the vent.

If the swing arm is bone dry but the final drive oil keeps getting contaminated, then itís the vent, not the boot.

Finally, I think the cheap fix might just be to fit a piece of breathable foam over the vent.   That would probably still permit air/oil to vent if needed, but would prevent rain drops and mist from getting into the vent. 
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 III water in final drive oil
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2020, 07:23:56 AM »
JUst ordered the new vent so not here yet.
Smith I did all that several times and the simplest washing seems to get it in there. alas I've been too lazy to pull it apart but if the new vent doesn't cure it I will break down sometime. I suspect there is a hole in the back of the boot where I can't feel / find it or when peeling it back to silicone it I missed a spot. hard to get to or see. I had built a cool homemade cover for the vent but it didn't help.
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