Worst Case Scenario - Chrome Cylinders?

[LonerDave]

I'll start out by admitting that I'm one cheap SOB, and that this question is mostly about money.

I realize that the chrome lining of the cylinders in my 850-T is likely to flake at some point, and all sorts of terrible things can happen when the chrome bits start circulating through the motor.  So far, I've seen no evidence of sparkley bits in the oil sump, so believe that the linings are currently OK.  But also believe that chrome flaking is a probable (but not certain?) event.  Then again, I've heard some say that their chrome cylinders are fine after thousands and thousands of miles. (Especially if the bike isn't allowed to sit, which this one doesn't.)

On the one hand, getting the Gilardoni kits now seems like the prudent thing to do.  About $800 for kits and gaskets and I could do it now during winter.  But that's some serious coin to me.

On the other hand, if I wait for the failure, repair costs will be higher ($800 for jugs/pistons plus whatever else gets trashed).

So my question is, what can I expect repair costs to be if at some point in the future the chrome lets go? 

Here's the dilemma in equation form:

$800 = P X C, where P is the probability of chrome failure and C is the cost of the more extensive repair.

I'd do the work myself, so labor isn't a factor.

Can anyone help me solve for either P or C?

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[father guzzi obrian]

A different motor will likely be your cheapest option once the chrome goes....

[Chuck in Indiana]

A different motor will likely be your cheapest option once the chrome goes....

What the good father says.  ;D I *have* heard of chrome bores holding up for a long time if used regularly. I've seen what happens when the chrome lets go. It's not pretty. Takes out the bearings, crank, rocker pins, oil pump... you get the picture. I'm a cheap barstid, too.. but I wouldn't take that roll of the dice. ;)

[acogoff]

     Sounds like you are at the point where, for piece of mind, you should at least pull the heads off and have a look at things and figure out what to do from there. Look for not so obvious dark pin holes down the bore as well as the flaking at the bore top.

[bobdar]

You need data to assess "P".  Here's one data point:  1974 build 850T (no oil filter) with ~22K miles, zero run time from 1984 to 2006 (kids), and used sparingly since (bad hips).  No damage or noticable degradation.

[RayB]

In case you want to lower P and eliminate the risk of popping the chrome, you could opt to have the cylinders replated with Nikasil by this place in Fondulac as an alternative to replacement

http://www.finishing.com/shops/uschromewi.shtml

I would inspect those cylinders before you make any decisions - good time of the year to look and know where you stand

[RayB]

BTW, If you could get a good used engine for $1000 ( best case ) with upgraded cylinders then anything greater 80% probability of failure of the existing cylinders and you are on the losing end of the equation vs replacing them before they flake.  At some point in time the P will reach 80% -  the question is when not if. P is a function of time and conditions. Its a known fault of the design.

Like Chuck said I wouldn't take the risk.

[LonerDave]

So we know that P is not 1.0, at least not after 39 years (bobdar).  And that we can get a better idea of P by having a look (acogoff).

We also know that C probably won't exceed about $2,000 (using Father, Chuck and ATE's advice about whole new motor - saw a used 850 motor on eBay for $1,200, plus new Gilardonis for $800).  Perhaps significantly lower if one with iron jugs can be found, making Gilardonis unnecessary.

So worst case, not doing anything makes financial sense only if P<.4  [$800 = .4($2,000)].  RayB's last post suggested that it won't be that low forever.

C could be further reduced, and P lowered to close to 0.0 by replating now (RayB). I've requested a quote from US Chrome.

Thanks everyone.  Sorry to drag you into the tortured mess that is my thinking process.  This is precisely why my wife won't let me do the grocery shopping.

[RayB]

The thing is you'll never know what the P will be for your machine until it fails

Spend $800 now or spend more later.  You may have over-complicatred the decision process a bit.

I would bet the prob of failure increases at a rapid rate as time goes on and its not a constant (corrosion rate of substrate). The equation you used would be ok for figuring a premium for insurance if you had actuary data but it wouldn't work here as 2 data points aren't good enough and the rest of us are guessing

Let us know how you finally go

[Matt Story]

As a preventative repair, if your cylinders and pistons are in fair to good cobdition, having your cylinders Nikasil'd before they go bad costs a bit over $400.  Add to that a new set of rings.

Thats $400 if the cylinders are close to factory dimension.  Price goes up if they are not.  If hhe chrome is intact, that should be a good ballpark.  Had mine done by Milenium

[twhitaker]

Millennium is the name of the company I've been trying to think of. A number of threads on this board referring to them. Do a search.

[LonerDave]

You may have over-complicatred the decision process a bit.

Me?  Over-complicate things?  Never!   Reminds me of my wife's response when I told her I was going to build a heat-seeking robot to pick up dog poop in the yard - "Just get out there and pick up the sh*t, Dave".   

I do understand that P is not fixed and has a temporal component.  Maybe my model was too crude?  ;)

Perazzimx, I had the same thought,  New bores would beg for new pistons, rings, etc. 

The Gilardoni options seems best/easiest all around.  But in order to convince my inner cheapskate that spending $800 is actually wise, I need to go through all the machinations.

Thanks all.

Dave

[RayB]

If it were me, I'd go to Millenium with the $400, have them Nikasil the bores , buy new rings and call it a day. May not be a need for pistons

Hope that doesn't slow you down

[twhitaker]

Millennium is the name of the company I've been trying to think of. A number of threads on this board referring to them. Do a search.

From what I recall, if your pistons are still in good shape Millenium will Nikusil the cylinders to fit the pistons and all you will need is rings and gaskets.

On the other hand, this is definitely not a new engine. Once you tear into it you might find you need new rod bearings and a timing chain tensioner.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

What you haven't told us (at least that I can see) is how many miles the engine has on it now. You says it "doesn't sit" now, but has it in the past? If it has 30k miles on it for instance, that a lot of sitting around at some point. Lack of use is what kills the chrome bores.

If it's low mileage, the pistons are likely still in spec and reusable. If it has lots of miles on it, then they're likely out of spec and are better suited as paperweights or ash trays. That's why Gilardonis are considered the best way to go - you get everything you need in one nice ready to bolt in package. Plus they'll last virtually forever.

Another thing to consider: if it has 30k miles on it or more and the heads have never been rebuilt (new guides at least), then it's overdue. That about all the miles the original guides are good for, replacement guides seem to last a bit longer.

[Perazzimx14]

Buy a used Jackal motor and stuff it in there -- 25% more displacement and a working charge system/oil filter for not much more than the updated 850 piston kit.  Offset the expense by selling ATE your old one for his lawn art project.  He likes reusing old bearings and the other robust, 35-y-o wear parts.  It's win-win.

I have a running Bassa motor I'll sell for $650.00 plus shipping or pick up for free. Also included are the tb's, ECU and wiring harness. Fuel injected 850T in the making.

[cruzziguzzi]

It seems to me from posts by the experts the the liklihood of "P" is 100% or near enough to consider it such. Just a matter of when. How bad things get when "when" comes around is the worst case scenario.

[LonerDave]

About 52k on the motor.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I have a running Bassa motor I'll sell for $650.00 plus shipping or pick up for free. Also included are the tb's, ECU and wiring harness. Fuel injected 850T in the making.

My advice to OP,
 buy it, I Luddited a Cali 1100 motor, points and carbs, touch of love, it's brilliant. But fit EFI to run like std. Drop straight into T3 when needed
 Run T3 till it fails, people are overlooking one major point, this is an oil filter engine not a loopy or V7 Sport/ 750S/ 850T
Only the oil pump is unfiltered, I've seen loads of T3's with damaged chrome, didn't even wreck oil pump, certainly nothing else.

But if he doesn't want it, I'll buy it if you don't mind storing for a while, will have to get to Cal or Tx to ship to Aus, no hurry at all

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Run T3 till it fails, people are overlooking one major point, this is an oil filter engine not a loopy or V7 Sport/ 750S/ 850T
Only the oil pump is unfiltered, I've seen loads of T3's with damaged chrome, didn't even wreck oil pump, certainly nothing else.

He says in the first post that it's an 850-T, so it could have a filter if it's a late T or not if it's an early one.

[jacksonracingcomau]

He says in the first post that it's an 850-T, so it could have a filter if it's a late T or not if it's an early one.

My bad --saw 1975 in sig but missed the lack of a 3, but given the year I'd still say it should have filter.

But no question re economics, breathe lightly on the 1100 and it will go harder than throwing bucket loads of $ on the old one.

If every dollar counts and it does have filter, I'd just ride it, forget letters of the alphabet, replate or replace cylinders as and when.
Cost you maybe 2 hours to have a look now, some gaskets, guides or liners and valve job if needed/you can afford it

And let me buy the offered 1100 , I want a few of these to play with

[Perazzimx14]

For those interested in the Bassa motor, I bought the Bassa from a fellow member on here a couple months ago. He bought a new to him Norge so the Bassa was sitting dormant in his shed for a while. The bike has 100,000 plus on it (did not smoke or make any out of the ordinary noises). When I got it home I put fresh fuel in it, checked the oil put in a donor battery then hit the starter. She sprang to likfe purred like a kitten. Rode it around the block a few times the brought it into the garage to stripped off the Bassa trim and put on clubman bars so it would fit better in my shed.  I bought it as a future project/parts bike but have no interest in the FI related stuff. All I wanted was the rolling chassis and transmission.

What you get:

Complete motor (starter and/or clutch not included) (if it is shipped oil will be drained)
Throttle bodies
The main wiring harness including relay/fuse block
ECU and whatever wiring connects to it

Decided to reduce the price to make someone's Christmas dream of owning a Bassa come true!$650 $575.00 plus shipping. (I normally only ship in the lower 48) However if you are outside the lower 48 and can make all the arrangements I will certainly package everything up and have it ready for pickup from your shipper of choice.

You are also more than welcome to pick it up for free in beautiful Northern side of Chambersburg Pennsylvania

The motor and related parts are still in the frame. Will remove from frame once payment is received.  

[jcctx]

I would ride it till it quits; then replace the whole thing with the best thing I could find for the money!!!!!

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

I'm confident that you would have been sorrier for asking my advice than not.   :D 

I have no issue at all with what you do on your own stuff, Andy.  As a part-time studio photographer you're well qualified to turn wrenches.  You've proven that repeatedly here as shown with your success with  big valves, distributors, carburation, roadside repairs, etc. -- in fact, you've been equally successful with everything you've done with Guzzis.  My problem is when you pretend you're an expert and attempt to instruct others in the "ATE method".

You're correct. I'm selling the convert, selling my other bike to a friend, and just going to focus on photography from here on out. Thanks for the advice.

[Greg Field]

My advice:

Skip looking at them, and just replace them.

I had a beautiful V700 once. The bores were perfect when I checked them every year, in November.

One year, I decided to sell the bike, so I checked them again in February.  Side light revealed a veritable hill country of small "pimples" in the chrome. A few "hills" had already been overstressed by the rings and had shed the "hilltop" of chrome into the sump.

It is just not worth it. Park the bike until you can afford the nikasils.

[Chuck in Indiana]

My advice:

Skip looking at them, and just replace them.

I had a beautiful V700 once. The bores were perfect when I checked them every year, in November.

One year, I decided to sell the bike, so I checked them again in February.  Side light revealed a veritable hill country of small "pimples" in the chrome. A few "hills" had already been overstressed by the rings and had shed the "hilltop" of chrome into the sump.

It is just not worth it. Park the bike until you can afford the nikasils.

No matter how many times it's said "it's not if but when" this thread goes through the board regularly.. ;D

[Vasco DG]

Quite!

Really, it ain't worth it. If you're really scratching go Charlie's way and get them Nic plated but you still end up with old pistons and you'll need rings anyway. I would honestly say that I think Greg has it nailed. Just bow to the inevitable and buy a set of Gilardonis now. It'll save a shitload of grief in the long run.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

For those interested in the Bassa motor, I bought the Bassa from a fellow member on here a couple months ago. He bought a new to him Norge so the Bassa was sitting dormant in his shed for a while. The bike has 1000,000 plus on it (did not smoke or make any out of the ordinary noises).

That is exceptional, a true million miles.
 I'm impressed but still interested, Makes the OP's 52K a bit pitiful (as it is for a 38 year old bike)
Let the OP have first bite, then me please

[Murray]

I  So far, I've seen no evidence of sparkley bits in the oil sump.
Dave

My understanding of things if it gets to evidence of sparkly bits its already too late.

[Perazzimx14]

That is exceptional, a true million miles.
 I'm impressed but still interested, Makes the OP's 52K a bit pitiful (as it is for a 38 year old bike)
Let the OP have first bite, then me please

Sorry one extra zero. That should have read 100,000 plus miles.