California EV Electrical Woes

[Brooksr13]

1998 California EV. 

I was working on this bike for a relative and found many electrical issues after she tried to jump start the bike using a car battery.  I finally got all things working again but the Tach and after much troubleshooting decided that she hammered the ECU and the Tach was not getting a signal from the ECU.

She picked the bike up yesterday and got 40 miles before it quit on her..
She said it was surging and just ran out of power and then when she tried to restart it all she heard was a clicking sound from the starter.

I had topped off the battery before she came yesterday and it was reading about 14+ volts, when I got it back last night it was 12 volts.  No headlight, no horn, but dash lights work, small light in the headlight works and turn signals work.

I know that i have ECU damage or at least have tried to eliminate all other options when I was troubleshooting the tach.

Could this be a bad Voltage Regulator?

I need to jump into the Wiring Diagram and figure out why I have some electrical and some not.  Turn on the key and the dash lights up and the fuel pump starts.  Hit the starter button and all I hear is a clicking sound.

I am going to charge the battery back to 14 volts and see what happens.


Any Ideas???


Mark

[rodekyll]

First idea is that the jump start was necessary because of a charging problem.  The charging problem is not a result of the jump start.  So I don't think she damaged it with the car battery.  Tell her I said so -- she'll feel better.

Dash and turn/tail lights are low draw compared to the pump, headlight and starter.  You can have voltage too low to light up the big stuff but still adequate for the little lights.

My first suspect would be the voltage regulator.  Once you get the battery charged and the engine started again see what the voltmeter says as you increase revs.  Let us know and more ideas will follow, probably from folks who know more about it than I do.

[pehayes]

I can't imagine that you fried the ECU and then it ran fine for 40 miles.  Look elsewhere.

Jump starting from a car battery isn't an issue.  It is the sudden surge when you disconnect the car battery and there is nothing in the moto battery to serve as a buffer or sink.  The alternator is capable of very high output and without a buffer, that output can hurt the ECU.   If your battery is known to be good but just mildly depleted, then go ahead and do the jump start and leave the car battery connected for a minute or so after the bike starts.

Tell us more about this battery.  How old is it?  What type of battery (flooded or AGM)?  A good resting battery should be 12.6 volts.  Is your 12 volt report just a nominal reading or was it actually 12.0?  Because 12.0 volts sucks.

Yes, the '98EV very commonly fails the voltage regulator under a variety of symptoms.  Get a replacement from EuroMotoElectrics.  It isn't quite plug-n-play, but almost.

It all sounds to me like a weak/faulty battery and perhaps some dirty connectors downstream.  Hook up the car battery again (with the car turned off) and turn on the key but don't start the bike.  Do you now get a headlight with the engine not running?

Be careful when reading the wire diagrams.  Guzzi changed the plan after manufacturing a bunch of bikes.  I have two 98EV's and their wires DO NOT match what is shown in the owner's manual.  SOME of the wiring matches, but other parts match the 96-1100i.  Fun huh?

Here is the maybe bogus 98EV diagram:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1998_EV.gif

Here is the 1100i diagram:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_California_1100i.gif

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Kiwi_Roy]

Mark,
        Before you decide the regulator is trash make sure everything around the reg is ok.
Unplug the regulator.

Check the resistance between the two yellow wires going to the alternator < 1 Ohm I think, anyway <5
With the key On you get 12 Volts to chassis at the female of the pair where Black and White plug in (I think the wire is red with a black stripe.
You get 12 Volts at the socket where the double red wire plugs in

If you have diode test on your meter check the regulators diodes, with the Black lead lead to the double red wire you should read ~0.5 Volts from each yellow wire.
If you don't have a diode test find an old AAA battery with a bit of life left while measuring the Voltage touch Red on the base then touch each Yellow wire to the positive the meter should dip to 0.6V or less.

Finally with the motor running you should see the Voltage rise as you rev the engine.

Did you ever try hooking the tacho to one coil, actually if you scratch the wire across a battery + as fast as you can the pulses might indicate if it's still working.

[Bill Hagan]

This thread is a great example of why this site is invaluable.

Bill

[Bill N]

I just replaced my 98 EV regulator because the Mech's  volt meter was not reading correctly. So in other words I have a functioning used regulator that I'll sell for $50. The new replacement is about $155. But I think you have a battery problem.
Bill

[Brooksr13]

OK, This is a brand new battery.  I had to replace hers as each cell was so swollen i could hardly get it out of the battery box.  That sounds like either overcharging or the car battery did her in.  It reads 12.0 volts, I have it on the charger now and will try again and reply with the results as soon as I get at least 13+ in the battery.


Mark

[pehayes]

Don't go forth blindly.  Rare, but the 'brand new' battery could be bogus.  We want you to fully charge the battery, then disconnect the charger, then attach some brief load (a few cranks of the motor with spark plugs disconnected) to the battery, THEN test for final standing voltage.  What does it show after it has been charged AND after it has been asked to do some work?  Most auto shops will do a free 'load test'.

The swollen cells certainly point at overcharging from a bad regulator.  I'd continue to pursue that lead.

Be thankful that none of this so far is leading toward an ECU damage.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[fotoguzzi]

OK, This is a brand new battery.  I had to replace hers as each cell was so swollen i could hardly get it out of the battery box.  That sounds like either overcharging or the car battery did her in.  It reads 12.0 volts, I have it on the charger now and will try again and reply with the results as soon as I get at least 13+ in the battery.


Mark

Even new batteries can be defective, if it's not over 12.5 off the charger it's bad.

Regulators fail on Guzzi's because they use the mounting bolts for a ground but then they use captured nuts that can wiggle around and loose the ground connection. run a wire from the reg bolt to the engine block.

[Chuck in Indiana]

She said it was surging and just ran out of power

That is exactly what a dead battery will do. On the EV I was troubleshooting, the tach also read double the rpm while it was surging. Your problem is probably the regulator, especially if an additional ground wire hasn't been run to it.

[John A]

(a few cranks of the motor with spark plugs disconnected)
[/quote]
Make sure you ground the plugs, or leads, with no place for the juice to go, it may cook the ignition portion of the ECU if you don't take that precaution .

[Brooksr13]

The fried ECU comment came from testing the Tach.  I have put the Tach in my other Guzzi and it works just fine, I have made sure that I have power on the + wire and a good ground on the - wire.  I have good continuity on the signal wire between the Tach and female side of the ECU Plug. Logic says that if there are only 3 wires and two have tested good........Its a good chance that I am not getting a Tach signal from the ECU.

Now, given that I have other weird electrical things happening on the bike, is it possible that one of those is interfering with the Tach signal?


Mark

[Brooksr13]

I removed the Voltage regulator and behind one of the bolts is a black wire with a ring connector that I am assuming is the extra ground for the VR.  It goes under the tank and I did not have time to trace the wire tonight and remove the tank. I did however run another ground from the other bolt, after polishing all of the contact surfaces between the frame and the VR and the mounting bolt just to make sure that I had a good ground and there was no corrosion.  As soon as the battery is topped off I can try this tomorrow and see if it makes any difference.


Mark

[Kiwi_Roy]

The black wire you found is the one going back to battery Negative Shown here
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1998_EV.gif
This wire is too small, a short wire from the regulator to the engine is 10x better.
The normal current return path is from battery Negative through the large main ground to the gearbox, through the massive engine block and chassis to the regulator case through a diode and back through one yellow wire to the alternator.  
If the regulator looses contact with the chassis the small black wire will barely maintain the battery Voltage.
Flowing through the ground path is not a steady DC but a series of high current spikes.

For the regulator to charge the headlight must be operating or at least it has to have power downstream of the headlight relay to the black wire of the regulator. The start relay has to be a 5 pin variety.

As David in reply#1 and Patrick in reply #2 pointed out bad charging is the cause of the problem, not the result.
What they don't know about EVs you could write on the back of a postage stamp with a carpenters pencil.

Please review the tests I asked for in reply #3

[Bill Havins]

I didn't read every word, above, so I may have missed something.

Re: the Tach.  On my '98 EV it is not, I repeat, IS NOT triggered by the ECU.  It is driven by one side of one coil.  It is a very old way of driving a tach and, IMHO, can be, uh, pretty scary.

When you look at the tach signal with an oscilloscope you will see spikes that measure greater than 60 Volts!  That is not coming from the ECU.

On the '98 EV a user-supplied ground wire (think 14 AWG or larger) has to be connected from the case of the voltage regulator (attach a lug to a mounting bolt) to the engine block.  That will provide a reliable ground for the voltage regulator and has been shown to extend the life of the voltage regulator.  [EDIT:  I now see this has been beaten to death above.  It is a must!  The small black wire you found attached to the voltage regulator is simply inadequate for the job.  And, IIRC, that wire may be driven higher than ground-potential by other connections; I may not be remembering this correctly.  Nevertheless, install the ground wire!]

Good luck!

Bill

[Brooksr13]

OK, First of all   bad typo   California EV is 2002 not 98.....too many bikes in the garage, sorry   and the tach does come off of the ECU according to the wiring diagram.  Black and yellow wire from the tach to the ECU plug.


Mark

[rodekyll]

Yes, you are correct about the 2002 EV tach wire.

It has a completely awful connector up near the ecu -- single wire, round plug.  It's easy to plug the wires together and completely miss the connection.  You might want to double-check that before writing off the ecu.

[Brooksr13]

So, there is a connector under the tank for the Tach wire between the Tach and the ECU??

[fotoguzzi]

So, there is a connector under the tank for the Tach wire between the Tach and the ECU??

probably in the battery area, near the fuse block.

[rodekyll]

I can't find my wire map right now, but I've got that section of the harness completely exposed right now -- all loom wrap removed.  If someone can remind me of the tach wire colors I'll try to find and photograph the connector I *think* I remember as being the tach wire.

[Brooksr13]

Black/Yellow goes from the Tach to the ECU

[Brooksr13]

OK some new info:  I charged the Battery to 13.5 volts and re-installed it.  Turned on the Key and both the headlight and Horn are still dead.  Looked at the #3 fuse for the Horn and tested it and it is fine.   I started the bike and it started instantly. Took off the choke and let it idle and took my meter on DC volts and measured the battery...Battey read 12.8 volts.  I revved the bike and increased the RPM, the meter display never changed.  Also the Tach is still dead but need to research that connector between the Tach and ECU.

So, What is common to both the Horn and headlight?

Mark

[rodekyll]

Black/Yellow goes from the Tach to the ECU

Sorry, it's been a day so dark we're importing light from down south.  I can't get a pic in situ, but I can describe it well.

Up where the coil wires branch out of the main injection harness there are four wire 'branches'.  One is left coil, one is right coil, the third is the ambient air temp sensor, and the fourth is the tach wire.  It's the only single connector up in that area.  So to answer your previous question -- yes, you might have to lift the tank to see it.  When you find it you'll understand why I say it's easy to connect the plugs and miss the wire.

Hope this helps.

[Wayne Orwig]

OK some new info:  I charged the Battery to 13.5 volts and re-installed it.  Turned on the Key and both the headlight and Horn are still dead.  Looked at the #3 fuse for the Horn and tested it and it is fine.   I started the bike and it started instantly. Took off the choke and let it idle and took my meter on DC volts and measured the battery...Battey read 12.8 volts.  I revved the bike and increased the RPM, the meter display never changed.  Also the Tach is still dead but need to research that connector between the Tach and ECU.

So, What is common to both the Horn and headlight?

Mark

The horn, headlight AND voltage regulator.
Triple check the fuses. Without looking at the schematic, I'm pretty sure there is a single fuse that feeds the dash lights, tach, regulator, headlight and I think the brake lights.
It ALSO may feed off of the back side of the start relay. That may be the situation where that requires the 5 pin relay, and there is a 4 pin relay that someone moved to that spot. Did anyone have the relays out of the sockets?

I'll look at schematics to see if I can think of more things.

Edit:
Yes, it looks like F3 feeds the headlight relay, which feeds the regulator, horn, brake light, and (depending on the schematic) power to the tach.

[Kiwi_Roy]

OK some new info:  I charged the Battery to 13.5 volts and re-installed it.  Turned on the Key and both the headlight and Horn are still dead. 
 

There's the charge problem right there. The headlight circuit powers up the Voltage regulator (and also the tacho by the way)
As Wayne says the Start relay MUST be a 5 pin variety, the normally closed contact powers the headlight relay.

[Kiwi_Roy]

OK, First of all   bad typo   California EV is 2002 not 98.....too many bikes in the garage, sorry   and the tach does come off of the ECU according to the wiring diagram.  Black and yellow wire from the tach to the ECU plug.


Mark

No wonder we were all perplexed in 4 years the wiring around the fuses completely changed  ???
I don't see a comic for the 2002 but it's probably closer to the 2000 Jackal or Bassa
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Jackal.gif
Since the bike cranks I assume there is power to fuses F3 and F4 with the key ON check both spots for sure, someone may have bodged the wiring.

Follow these steps
A/ Pull out the Start relay, make sure it's a 5 pin, then replace it (the Start relay is the only one that must be a 5 pin, the others can be 4 or 5)

B/ Pull out the headlight relay, make sure you see 12 Volts across the 2 outside small connectors in the socket with the key ON

C/ Plug the headlight relay back in, make sure the headlight goes with the key ON, (it will go out if you press the start button then come back ON)

At this stage you can try the charging, it's not ever going to work until you get to C

D/ Now you should see 12 Volts at the socket where the black wire of the regulator plugs in when the key is ON, you may even find the tacho works if you put all the wires back where they belong.

Just to re-enforce a point, the bike will not charge and the tacho will not operate until the headlight circuit is alive.

Good Luck

Roy

[Bill Havins]

It just struck me...do you suppose this scooter began to exhibit charging problems after an earlier owner tried to wire in a separate headlight circuit w/wo relays?  If not done correctly there is the potential to remove the +12 Volts required to "juice" the voltage regulator.  Okay....back to sleep.

Good luck!

[Kiwi_Roy]

It just struck me...do you suppose this scooter began to exhibit charging problems after an earlier owner tried to wire in a separate headlight circuit w/wo relays?  If not done correctly there is the potential to remove the +12 Volts required to "juice" the voltage regulator.  Okay....back to sleep.

Good luck!

 ;-T That's a good point Bill. The tacho is wired into the same circuit, we need B13 to give us some feedback.

I need re-training after a coffee break

[Brooksr13]

Fixed

Ran all the Voltage Regulator tests and everything seemed to check out fine.  Just for kicks I pulled all the fuses and relays to clean the contacts and of course that's when i found it.

The 5 pin relay pulled out and left 2 pins behind in the socket.  These Relays and Fuses are 13 years old so I took the Brute Force approach and replaced them all with Brand new components.

Turned on the Key and WOW, lights, Horn...... ;D

Still no Tach, so i went in search of that elusive connector under the tank.  I finally found it tie wrapped to the back of a wire harness bundle against the frame.  Against the frame with at least an inch of bare wire that was holding on with about 2 strands.  Cut the wires, put on new connectors.....We have a working Tach.

I want to thank everyone that have been so helpful and patient with me.  I now understand what, "Moto Guzzi, making electricians out of riders"  means.

Now back to the Centauro Project........


Mark

[Bill Havins]

Bravo to you!  ;-T