Did not make it home in one piece (VA rally)

[redrider90]

Thanks for the follow up, I'll go through that new study when I have a moment.

But I have to reply to the 25% discussion.

We're not talking about mortality. The study showed that in an accident THAT INCLUDES INJURIES 2 out of 4 wearing a FF helmet will get a TBI that could be anything even as relatively "minor" as a concussion, but 3 out of 4 with an "open face" would suffer the same.

And as I said, we don't know what percentage of that difference was crap, loose-fitting half shells or quality fitting 3/4's.

It seems that your latest study suggests fit is important, so it's a reasonable critic of the 25% data.

But my main point was simple risk assessment.

I used morbidity/mortality as second nature after 40 years in health care. And seeing that TBI can and do result in death then mortality is appropriate in this discussion.  In the health field morbidity is associated with complication of an injury or treatment of an injury/illness and mortality with death. It is common to use both. In hospitals they have closed conferences when discussing complications of treatments that result in one or other. You dismiss concussions as minor and whereas there are lesser and more severe concussion one cannot rule them out as merely a concussion. Even one  can result in a life time of pain and result in significant loss of quality of life.
A concussion is a TBI and when studying TBIs resulting from helmets they have to included all forms of TBI. It would not have been good science to delete concussions. In fact due to the numerous stages of concussions where would one start? Do not include any or include only those that result in long lasting complications?   By including concussion as a TBI then you are showing that the person received enough of a blow to have a head injury. That is good science . In fact the OP of this thread no doubt may have had a very mild concussion as he reported he was disoriented and had a headache.( 2 signs of a concussion).  I do not know if the doctors put him through a concussion protocol. But to assessing all injuries they include the lowest to the highest TBI and you want to merely dismiss concussion as if they are not head injuries and therefore do not belong in the study.
A concussion is a result of trauma to the brain which including swelling. It is not to be taken lightly. The sports world is finally coming to terms with the danger of concussions. Hence the immediate assessment on the field of court of someone who has received a blow to the head.

[jetmechmarty]

I do not know what is involved in concussion protocol.  They performed a CAT scan on my head and said everything looked OK.

As for the helmet, it was a Zamp shorty.  I chose it because the shape of it is the same as my head.  It stays put and I keep the chin strap snug.  The doctor looked at it and told me, "It did its job now throw it away."  I can not say with any certainty that I would be dead if I was helmetless, but it is certain that my scalp would have been severely damaged as all that scraping and the impact would have been applied directly to my head.  I always wear a DOT or SNELL approved helmet.  My head seemed to be fine within 24 hours of the incident.  BTW, that helmet has pretty severe damage on the right side and it suffered severe abrasion on the front lip and also on the left side.  I know, I am damn lucky!  Another helmet may have been a better choice, but in this accident what I had was good enough. 

I'm doing much better after three weeks, but some of the injuries will take quite a while to completely heal.  My ankle suffered a mild sprain and it will likely nag me all summer or more.  My shoulder and elbow will nag me for a while, too.  My knees aren't terrible, but no telling how long it will be before I can kneel again.  I can't even put a knee on the bed right now.  The bruises on my hips will be a memory after a few more days.  I did a follow up with my own doctor and he thinks I'll heal up just fine.

I don't wear motorcycle boots because my shoe size is 13N.  The Red Wing steel toe pull-ons I was wearing were pretty tough.  It appears my right foot was briefly trapped under the bike based on the damage to the right boot.  I have no regrets about my choice of foot wear.

After looking at pics of the scene and giving this a lot of thought, my biggest offense was likely speed.  I have no idea how fast I was going, but too fast to make that turn.  What upsets me is that I feel pretty sure that if I had been driving the truck, I would likely not have hit the motorcycle.  There is a shoulder on the road.  He stayed right on the center line, even with his increasing radius turn.  The driver never spoke to me at the scene as other bystanders did.  He did leave a message on my phone about how things would go bad for me if I didn't give him my insurance info.  Based on that, I think little of him to say the least.  I reported to my insurance when I got home and let them deal with it.

I left before the police arrived, so I never spoke to them about it.  I was given the officer's number and he never returned my call.  He wrote the accident report without my input.  I wasn't charged, but it still sucks.  My insurance is going to charge me, no doubt.  C'est la vie.  I'm still here and I live to ride again.

I sincerely appreciate the well wishes I have received on this board.  Motorcycle enthusiasts are the best kind of people!

[Kev m]

I used morbidity/mortality as second nature after 40 years in health care. And seeing that TBI can and do result in death then mortality is appropriate in this discussion.  In the health field morbidity is associated with complication of an injury or treatment of an injury/illness and mortality with death. It is common to use both. In hospitals they have closed conferences when discussing complications of treatments that result in one or other. You dismiss concussions as minor and whereas there are lesser and more severe concussion one cannot rule them out as merely a concussion. Even one  can result in a life time of pain and result in significant loss of quality of life.
A concussion is a TBI and when studying TBIs resulting from helmets they have to included all forms of TBI. It would not have been good science to delete concussions. In fact due to the numerous stages of concussions where would one start? Do not include any or include only those that result in long lasting complications?   By including concussion as a TBI then you are showing that the person received enough of a blow to have a head injury. That is good science . In fact the OP of this thread no doubt may have had a very mild concussion as he reported he was disoriented and had a headache.( 2 signs of a concussion).  I do not know if the doctors put him through a concussion protocol. But to assessing all injuries they include the lowest to the highest TBI and you want to merely dismiss concussion as if they are not head injuries and therefore do not belong in the study.
A concussion is a result of trauma to the brain which including swelling. It is not to be taken lightly. The sports world is finally coming to terms with the danger of concussions. Hence the immediate assessment on the field of court of someone who has received a blow to the head.

By does my point not still remain that the study doesn't differentiate between minor and disabilitating?

Look, I'm saying that everything we do appears somewhere on the risk V reward scale.

My arguement is a subjective comparative assessment of one risk vs another in balance with the big picture.

If 25% more risk is so significant, shouldn't we just not ride and eliminate the other 50%?

[motrhead]

 I will admit to wearing a half helmet on my Harley, and I don't ride it a lot...but for all the rest of my riding I have an LS2 FF393 Convertible helmet. It's on the noisy side... but the chin bar becomes a rear spoiler, so you can use it as a 3/4 helmet at any speed, and it has a built in sun shade. I can't see ever going back to a full face. When I am in town the chinbar is open, but on the highway it is closed. It's sure nice having a full face in the rain!
 I had a crash in '92 that seriously chewed the chinbar of my beloved Bieffe full face. If I had been wearing a half helmet I would have been sorry. At least the modern 3/4 style provides some jaw protection on the sides. I wear leather from the neck down about 98% of the time on the bike, unless I am just running to the coffee shop, then I may cheat and wear jeans. Better to be covered in a bit of sweat rather than blood. One good case of roadrash educated me quick! LOL

[H-E-ROSS]

Marty, I'm sorry to hear about your accident and I hope you are healing well. I would like to add to this thread as the discussion evolves.
I suffered an accident nearly a year ago ( a low side resulting from a rear wheel lock up ). I was wearing full gear; armored leathers and a full face helmet. The only rash I suffered was from a space between my short gloves and sleeve.(I have since upgraded to gauntlet gloves). It is a pita putting on gear to go for a short ride but I am fully committed to atgatt. I have a friend that just sold his Triumph because he hated to gear up to ride, but felt it was foolish to ride unprotected. This is a choice all riders consider every time out. I post to advocate for wearing the best gear you can afford. My Vansons literally saved my skin and my Bell helmet literally saved my face as I tumbled 70 feet down the roadway!

[redrider90]

.

If 25% more risk is so significant, shouldn't we just not ride and eliminate the other 50%?

25% is so significant that is proves MCists should be wearing FF. That's the meaning of the 25%. It's not the difference between riding and not riding.
It's the difference between getting TBI and maybe not. I think 25% is conservative based from other articles I have read including the other two I posted.
I posted once a photo of a MCist who was not wearing gloves. It was pretty gross and I got criticized for posting it and it got nuked. So be it. But I have seen way too many in the NICU (neurological intensive care unit at Duke University) in a coma with their heads swollen and oh well never mind I will not describe the rest. Point is, it is not pretty and not healthy to wear half helmets. NC is a  helmet law.
Some of use take better care of the heads on the jugs sticking out ready to hit the pavement than we do of our own heads.

[Kev m]

25% is so significant that is proves MCists should be wearing FF. That's the meaning of the 25%. It's not the difference between riding and not riding.
It's the difference between getting TBI and maybe not.

Your years of experience with the injured in the NICU aside, respectfully you seem to have problems with statistics.

Since we're talking about 50% get a TBI WITH a FF and 75% with an open, then we're obviously not talking 75 vs 100, so your statement is untrue.

And again the rest of my objections include:

1. Differences in helmet design and fit.
2. How about statistics for accidents without injury?
3. Differentiation between minor and severe injuries.

And I'm sorry, but if 50% still got a TBI with a FF, how can 25% be so significant but it's 50% isn't enough to include in the debate simply not riding?

Seems that donning even a FF is accepting a significant risk of a TBI, no?

[oldbike54]

 Well shoot , reading all of this makes me want to hang up my handlebars . 25% , 75% , 33&1/3 RPM's , oh sorry , wrong stat 

 My head hurts 

 Dusty

[ITSec]

Well shoot , reading all of this makes me want to hang up my handlebars . 25% , 75% , 33&1/3 RPM's , oh sorry , wrong stat 

 My head hurts 

 Dusty

Well, if we were being sensible,

• We wouldn't ride motorcycles at all, and
• if we did, we wouldn't ride Moto Guzzis!

Or, as David Byrne said - "Stop Making Sense!" (then again, I may be Speaking in Tongues  )

[jetmechmarty]

In closing:

I know this is old news, but I think it's easier to close this way.  I've had a busy autumn, so I failed to post sooner.  Since I had a memory reset from the accident, I had to go back and have a good look.  I did so, Labor Day weekend returning from a family event with my wife.  She has since ridden on the pillion, but not without purchasing a new helmet and some proper pants.


This is what I saw just before the truck came into view.  Note how close the tunnel warning sign is to the tunnel.  Just before this, there is a small brown sign noting the park ahead.  The speed limit is 40 mph for many miles before and after this spot.  There is no sign warning a 180 degree turn, or any turn at all.  On the other side is a bridge over a stream.  It has no guard rail.  That helps explain why the truck was crowding the center.  Before and after this point, the road is mostly easily navigated at 45-50 mph.  If I was going 45 mph at the point where I took this photo, I don't think I had a chance.  It was way too fast.  I went through the tunnel and WHAM!  No chance to adjust.  The whole scene is much smaller than I remember it.

Too fast on an unfamiliar road with no help in the way of signs.  I should add that it's a state highway and some of the curves are marked.  That's what happened.  I feel better now that I understand what happened.

Since the accident, I've been wearing this on my head.

Y'all good with it?
I bought some new riding jeans with a much better fit.  They're Diamond Gusset Defender.

I still have marks on my knees and my elbow and ankle bother me some, but I'm not complaining.

The bike is totaled.  The frame is destroyed.  I'll put the good parts in a box and the broken parts in the recycling bin.  I'll decide what to do after that assessment of what's left.  The truck got $5700.00 in damage.

That is the rest of the story.

[Gliderjohn]

Sounds like you are making a good recovery and keeping up a good attitude which I believe is important. Best of luck here on out.
gliderJohn

[Wayne Orwig]

Quote from: jetmechmarty on Today at 09:22:40 AM

Since the accident, I've been wearing this on my head.
>

Does that glow in the dark? 

Looks good

[jetmechmarty]

It almost glows in the dark.  It certainly glows in the day!

[Lannis]

Thanks for the update!   As much discussion as was had back in July, and as many unknowns as there were, it's really helpful to get this follow - on.

Great idea on the helmet - as you said, you dodged a bullet in the crash and you're covering that now.   Glad to see that you're back in the saddle - but sorry to hear that the Guzzi is totaled.   Even when you have good parts to eBay, eBaying is a lot of work - composing ads, figuring shipping, getting boxes together, keeping up with who bought what, uploading pictures ....

Thanks again!

Lannis

[jumpmaster]

I am sympathetic to the full face helmet argument and I own a couple of them.  Motorcycling is risky and I accept that.  I'm also a bit like the dog that wants his face out the window.  There may be risk in that and I accepted it.  I believe that in this accident, the half helmet protected me from any injury.

Glad you came out of the experience essentially whole, physically.  I discovered when the face shield on my full-face helmet broke off that wearing it as-is with sunglasses was a reasonable compromise, at least in warm and/or dry weather.  You get some fresh air sensation and still have the nose and jaw protection.  I never did replace the shield on that helmet & used it that way for a few years.

[Arizona Wayne]

I just read your accident and am glad at this point you came to your senses and now have a FF helmet.  I have been riding for over 55 years  before FF helmets('75) were even available. I had a MC accident with an open face helmet on in the `60s and like you survived the incident.  Since then I have had numerous slow speed MC crashes w/FF helmets on and in all of them I went down face first.  Thank God for FF helmets!  For some reason, when you are traveling on a MC and something suddenly makes your MC stop unexpectedly, your body has a notion to keep propelling forward.    That's what FF helmets are for.....to a point.  If you're lucky you survive the incident still alive.     Nowadays I wear a flip-up helmet most the time.

[maquette]

Glad to hear you are recovering well Marty. Also glad to see you've upgraded your gear, but if you are anything like me the most important thing might be changing your riding habits somewhat. I made a conscious decision to ride slower and safer than I did in the past and so far it helps me immensely, to say nothing of less mental strain. I enjoy the ride more now than I did when I thought riding faster was what was important. If I want to do that a track day is always available. I still need to work on my new riding style on my offroad bike, but I'm workin' on it. 

Sorry to hear about the EV, what are you riding now? Still hope to meet you out and about somewhere and wish you continued safe and enjoyable riding.

Tom