1100 sporti charging

[Kiwi_Roy]

John,
        Yes Bigpants didn't exactly say what bike he is referring to, from the two yellow wires coming from the Alternator I assumed it was a spine frame VII Sport with a Ducati Energia regulator in which case the headlight relay is as Howard and I describe.
I haven't looked at the 96 1100i before but it also senses the voltage after the headlight relay and suffers from two relays in series.
We are referring to the red/black wire going to the regulator

Bigpants, shed some light here!

[Howard R]

John,

Your interpretation is correct.  I think part of the "confusion" (not really confusion, but that's a close enough term) is that "headlight relay" is a holdover from the factory schematic terminology.  The main purpose of the "headlight relay" is to cut power to all the extraneous stuff like horn, dash lights and other things, the headlight being the main contribution, to reduce the load on the battery during operation of the starter.  That's all it does, from the relay onward the on-or-off-ness of the headlight (and/or high beam operation) is determined only by the handlebar switch(es) without regard to the state of the relay.

Hope this helps with further understanding.

Howard

PS I seem to remember previous posts from the OP dealing with a fuel injected 1100 Sport-i so it's probably the same bike.

[Old Jock]

Hi Roy & Howard

First many thanks for all the explanations I do appreciate your input (and Roy for the VERY JAZZY and BRILLIANT diagrams, I knick them and file them away whenever I get the chance)

I'm not being sarcastic and God knows I've done this too, but the thread title does state 1100 sporti charging so that's what I thought it was an 1100 sport injection

I admit to having a vested interest as I'm re-building a Magni Sfida 1100 Sporti

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81986.0

Re the sensing line Yes the red/black line. The sensing line is paralleled to the instrument lights and some warning lights but then runs back to the "Headlamp Relay"

There is a separate line which is paralleled and runs from the "Headlamp Relay" to the bar switches then onto the headlamp (so no relays ergo............the switch has a hard life and the headlamp will be dimmer due to volts drop............... .SIGH!!!)................... .....I suppose in a sense it's vaguely connected to the headlamp, as if its not energized no headlamp, but also a whole lot of other components too including brake lights would not work either.

Therefore from what I can see and correct me if I misinterpret, the only volts drop that the sensing line "sees" is the volts drop across the contacts of the "headlamp relay"

Any input re the Shindengen Mosfet RR?

John

[Tom]

Like Howard says on the headlight relay.  It interrupts the circuit so that there is no draw on the battery during starts.  I would definitely look at the battery first.  Charge and load test it.  I think the OP did this.  However if the battery is a little questionable.  Change it out.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Any input re the Shindengen Mosfet RR?

John

They look ok., it works by shorting out the alternator when the battery is at full Voltage as opposed to the Ducati Energia that opens the circuit and lets the alternator produce whatever Voltage it can, I can't decide what's best.
It's a 3 phase regulator, is the Magni 3 or single phase? Probably doesn't matter to leave one line open
I like it that the company at least gives you a clue as to how they work unlike Electrosport who won't share a thing.
I also like it that the company is Japanese rather than Chinese, I know, I'm not supposed to say that and they make the semiconductors so they should know how to apply them.

This guy seems convinced
http://roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20Mosfet%20Regulator%20about.htm

[Old Jock]

Hi Roy

No the alternator on the Magni is the stock single phase item, but the max output from the manual on the alternator is 27A and that's at pretty high RPMs. The Shindengen can handle single or 3 phase, although to make the most of it, you'd obviously be better with 3 phase, up to 30A.

I just thought I'd mention as over here all I hear is Electrosport yet on the Ducati UK forum all they talk about is Shindengen yet some of the bikes are running identical (or near identical) charging circuits and components.

These are installed as standard on many Triumphs, Yams and probably more, it was just a possible alternative, to make BP aware of some alternates......... .............its the route I intend to pursue later, as IMHO there is little point in installing a product that's suspect, I'd prefer to pay more and get something I can rely on.

John

[bigpants]

Hiya folks. Wow there are some knowledgeable people out there , thanks for all the advice. Latest report - ive bought a new reg and its made bugger all difference. Battery still going flat in 10miles or so. Reg output still around 11v. Alternator output 45v ac , winding isolation test at + 20M  ohm , winding continuity 0.4ohm. Soo , any idea what else I can try ? Sorry if im slow to reply , no computer or electricity here - just a phone with limited battery capacity (sounds familiar). Thanks people.

[Old Jock]

Good Grief BG

It does sound like its not charging yet the tests indicate the alternator is good and the Reg/Rec replaced.

Is the Reg/Rec properly grounded and is the battery to frame connection good at both ends on the bike

Have all the connections between the Reg/Rec and the rest of the bike checked for continuity and all associated plugs etc: checked

Fully charge the battery off the bike let it sit for an hour or so and measure the voltage, should be around 12.7 volts
Pop it back in the bike and run the revs up to 2-2,5k measure the voltage at the terminals

I'm trying to ascertain for certain that its not charging which it sure looks to be the case

How old is the battery?

After that if it isn't charging my next move would be to prove the wiring by jury rigging test wiring then repeating the above test to make sure there is not something in the loom that's causing the problem

I'm starting struggle Roy is defo your man you have one of the top electrics guy on this forum on your case (and its NOT me)

John

[bigpants]

The reg is definitely earthed , and ive checked for continuity between the battery and reg and the headlight relay and both are good. The batt should be good and im alternating between two as one goes flat ( engine running) . When I say flat I mean about 11.7v at which point starter solenoid wont fire and ecu shuts down. The bike has had a long history of mods and probs and its hard to remember which problem started at which stage so as I fitted a new loom recently that has to be suspect or rather my fitting has to be suspect. It was a loom from the states and I think euro ones have some differences.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'm sure you are aware that the 30 Amp main fuses have an issue, they get hot and the plastic melts or goes black, check for that.

Make certain you have battery Voltage on the regulator black wire, do this by running a wire direct from battery + to the black wire then with the motor running check the Voltage at the regulators red wire. You might want to add a fuse at the battery just in case of an accidental short.
(I have had to hot wire the regulator like that when my charging failed on a trip)

Did you test the diodes on the new regulator.
Is it a Ducati Energia like the original, if not give us the make/model

If that works then we can take the next step

[bigpants]

Ok thanks roy. Its 23.00 here so im off to bed but I'll get on it in the morning and report back.

[bigpants]

Ok Roy. Latest results as carried out by someone who doesnt really know what he's doing. Voltage at battery now 12.34v , at black reg wire 11.7 although it varied depending on where I took an earth from but 11.7 was the highest. I havnt done the running test with a wire from batt +ve to black as I wanted to check - did u mean with the black wire unplugged from the black and red one ?
I dont seem to have a 30amp fuse , the highest is a 20A in the fuse box , its fine.
Diode tests achieved values of 484 and 501 for the two yellow wires (using new reg). Dont know units.
New reg from www.MVH-SHOP.DE via ebay part number 700551 for sport 1100 ie
Cheers.

[bigpants]

Hmm , things just took a turn for the worse. Overwhelmed by wires and connections I accidentally started the bike with the black and the white wires from the reg unplugged. The wires from the ignition barrel fried and now all is dead. Bugger.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Starting with the regulator unplugged did no harm, perhaps it's the real problem showing itself.
The switch comes off easily just two Phillips screws around the back underneith and the switch will pull off leaving the lock behind
pull it apart and clean the old grease out, replace with fresh Vaseline.

If the wires to the switch let out the magic smoke that's because Luigi in his wisdom thought he didn't need to fuse the wire from the battery to the ignition switch, there's several hundred amps available from the battery to do some serious damage, I always add a main 40 Amp fuse where the ignition switch feed takes off from the battery, it should never ever blow but could save a major melt down.
Looking at the schematic there are two red wires joining at the start solenoid, one to the ignition switch, one to the regulator, looking at the schematic your bike doesn't have a 30 amp fuse, just a 1 way connector (35)I would put a fuse in each one.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Sport_1100i.gif
Looking at the schematic it shows the regulator Voltage reference goes through two relays, the start then the headlight, I know from my greenie this is an issue one or the other contact builds up resistance and throws the voltage reference out of kilter.

Unplug the male/female connector at the regulator and power the regulators black wire from the battery this will give the regulator the best shot of working. This is only a temporary connection, the black wire pulls about 15 milliamps, it would flatten the battery in a few days if left that way.

Inspect the two bullet connectors on the yellow wires, the connection should be nice and silver, not black and burnt looking.

Now you have the regulator connected directly to the two yellow wires, the battery connected to the red wire and the battery connected to the regulators black wire, just make certain the regulator case is connected to chassis with a wire from the case to a timing cover screw (the current flows back that way), it should go eh!

 

[Wayne Orwig]

Hmm , things just took a turn for the worse. Overwhelmed by wires and connections I accidentally started the bike with the black and the white wires from the reg unplugged. The wires from the ignition barrel fried and now all is dead. Bugger.

As Roy said, leaving the Black/white wire off did no harm. You have another issue there.

Did the ignition switch get hot and melt? That is a sign of poor contacts in the switch.

[bigpants]

Ok guys , im a bit overwhelmed but soldiering on ! Ignition barrel taken apart , screwdriver stuck into side of thumb , cleaned , greased and back together. No change. Both red wires at barrel and reg 12.34v , continuity along white wire to headlamp relay checked. No relay clicking. Assumed barrel not working so shorted red and white wires at barrel connector block and my radio crackles but no relay click , swapped relay but no change. Put ignition all back together and switching on doesnt make radio crackle. Ok I'll go back to ur instructions now.

[bigpants]

Sorry got diverted checking stuff. There appears to be something weird going on at the headlight relay. Ive got 12v at the ignition barrel and to check the switch I ran it straight to the relay white wire terminal and nothing. So I ran battery to same terminal and it clicks. So put it all back together and checked volts at relay terminal and got nothing. Then I accidentally shorted two of relay terminals and it whirred into life , I hit the starter and it fired then stopped after a few seconds (5?). All is not lost , just very misplaced.

[bigpants]

Also roy I did as u said but since the fry up ive got no relays or fuel pump prime. Still trying to get to the bottom of that.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Also roy I did as u said but since the fry up ive got no relays or fuel pump prime. Still trying to get to the bottom of that.

You need to get power from the ignition switch back to the ECU relay before the ECU will power up the pump etc. Look for power at the fuses 3,4,5, & 6 when the key is turned On. There's another white wire from the ignition switch that goes to the kill switch, from there it goes to the power relay, check you have the switch On

You said something is weird with the headlight relay, yes, that's why I'm trying to get you to hot wire the regulator so we can prove out the charging components, it's hard to get good help LOL

 

[bigpants]

Hehe , fair play Roy. I'll try and stick to the instructions. Its getting dark here in the woods so ive moved the bike into my cabin. Ive only got candlelight and a head torch  but ill try and go over those items u just mentioned and report back. Hope she doesnt burn my home down.

[bigpants]

Key and run on - fuse 1 = 0.1v all others read battery voltage.

[bigpants]

My phones gonna go flat soon so you'll be relieved to hear this will be my last post for the night. Ive just discovered something clearly wrong. I was peeling all the loom away from the frame and just downstream from the run/start 5 way connector about 1cm from it , someone has cut a very neat 2mm slice away from the insulation of the white wire. There is also a 1cm long piece of bare wire pushed perpendicularly through it. This shows signs of earthing and burning into the brown (red?) And white wire next to it. The plot thickens.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry, ignore the update to my last, I wasn't reading the drawings right.

Drawing shows fuse 1 & 2 fed from the ignition switch but they are only the flasher horn and park light.

Do you have a printout of the schematic?
You should hear the Power Relay click when you operate the kill switch, at the same time the ECU terminal 26 gets power. The power relay closing puts power onto the injectors, ignition coils and starts the pump
After a few seconds the ECU drops out the Power Relay to turns off the pump etc.
So figure out why this isn't happening.
There's a second white wire on the ignition switch that goes to the kill switch.  Update: You just found the short in this wire, that could be it

Once we get the motor going again then we can troubleshoot charging.
Start by hot wiring the black wire, if everything else is ok it should charge.

Note: I went on MVH-Shop.de and tried to find the regulator, I came up with one labeled DC-003, this has the same wires as the OEM Ducati Energia.  This regulator must have a well grounded case, the current runs back through the ground connection, run a wire from the regulators case to a timing cover screw.

[bigpants]

Hi Roy. Ive nicked a bit of charge from the bike for my phone. Where were we. Ive got one of carls wiring diagrams and can still make out most of it despite the blotches of blood , sweat and tears. I just started the bike ( my home stinks now). It looked like the ignition barrel wasnt working , it only seems to pass on 0.5v but theres more to it. That 4 way connector for it. The reds read battery voltage , if I hotwire the red to the white nothing happens. If I hotwire the red at the reg to the same white wire at 4way block nothing. But if I go straight from battery to white wire everything fires up and bike runs. Also once ive started it the key operation stays live and operational for a while but eventually stops working.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You seem to be telling us that the red wire at the regulator is not connected to the battery.
Just because it has battery Voltage on it doesn't mean it has a good connection.
There is some sort of connector in the wire. Item (45) Packard one way connector, see if you can locate that.

Have you had a chance to hot wire the black wire?
Perhaps run another temporary wire for the red as well or just tie red and black together with a single wire to the battery.

Good Luck

[bigpants]

Ive found the packard connector and even with levers and pliers I cant get it apart. I just wired battery straight to reg reds. Turned key and all fired up. So despite seeing battery voltage there there doesnt seem to be any current flowing. Ok gonna do black wire hotwire again. Just need to confirm - unplug BOTH black and white wires from reg then run new hotwire from battery to red and black at reg ?

[bigpants]

I dont mean to keep bombarding you with results but - ran wire from battery to reg reds ( theyre all still connected) and to the disconnected black ( white still connected). Bike runs fine , 11.78v at reg black and red regardless of revs.

[Kiwi_Roy]

And still see a reasonably high AC Voltage on the two yellow wires while they are connected
And you do have the regulator case well grounded (this is how the charge current returns to the alternator)
If the case is not grounded the regulator won't turn on and there's no way for the current to get back.

Note:
The regulator doesn't set the battery Voltage, all it does is set the voltage between the black wire and it's case if it happens those two points are connected to the battery it follows along

 

[LaMojo]

Roy - Excellent schematic and documentation on the single phase rectifier/voltage regulator you provided.  Lots of forensic work went into that.  If it wasn't for the material that is used to encapsulate the components, the regulator could be repaired quickly and economically.  In the photo of the two button diodes where one had become unsoldered, you made a statement that the diode could probable be reused.  It's been my experience in repairing power supplies, battery chargers, auto alt diode boards, etc, that's a sure sign that the diode has shorted.  But I'm sure you know that.

Also, taking the reference voltage at the headlight would be where the lowest voltage drop would occur since it is the single most current draw item in the electrical system (besides the starter.)

I think that a lot of charging systems fail because owners tend to hang on to marginal batteries that put an additional strain on the already marginal charging components.   If you suspect the battery is nearing it's useful life - toss it and save yourself grief down the road.

Anyway - thank you for your time and research on providing info on the reg.

[Kiwi_Roy]

LaMojo, unfortunately the headlight Voltage drop is not consistent, my VII Sport can be anywhere from 0.5 to 1 Volt, it drops back if I wiggle the relays.
Adding after market headlight relays removes the Voltage Drop, adding extra lights increases it.

The black wire of the Ducati Energia draws about 15 milliamps, I think that's the only reason it was placed after the headlight relay so it's disconnected when the key is off.

It does a great job of regulating the headlight Voltage but not so good a job on battery Voltage
I have been advocating direct connected Electrosport ESR510 as a replacement, it senses the battery Voltage directly across the red & Green wires. Even though it may still have a black wire Electrosport told me it's not used
(some ESR510s come with the black, some without)