Starter Relays Blowing, why? Cali 1100 '95 carb

[izzug otom]

Hi guys, I wonder if anyone might be able to give me the best way to go about finding the fault behind my starter relays blowing. My bike wouldn't start and the relay was making a sound like a very feeble and failing horn. I switched relays and she started. Cool. Then a few days later, the same problem, bike won't turn over on the starter and the replacement relay was making the same feeble/failing horn sound.

It seems there must be a fault somewhere to cause this. Is there anything obvious I hould be aware of.

I changed the battery a few weeks before this happened, but that's holding a good charge, and can't see anything obvious there.

Thanks in anticipation 

[Wayne Orwig]

May be a form of 'startus interruptus'.
The power for the starter solenoid goes through a fuse, up to the ignition switch, back through a fuse, trough a relay contact, then to the starter. If the ignition switch, wiring harness, relay contacts, or anything along the way are weak, the starter solenoid inrush current hangs and pops the fuse. The solenoid inrush is over 30 amps. The fuse is 20 or 15.

On that bike, I would start by cleaning the ignition switch, and fuse holders. Maybe replace all of the relays too.
The solenoid itself may be hanging. You may be able to clean it up.
If everything is in good shape, and it is a 15 amp fuse, you might try a 20. I think the bike has a 20 in it now though.
Do try to inspect the ignition switch though. They often fail and melt the contacts out of the plastic.

Edit: Just reread this. I thought you were saying 'fuse' blowing. Duh. I have to wonder if you just have a poor battery connection, or a bad battery. Measure the battery voltage when you try to start it. Also, those years, it was common for the starter to pop off a magnet, and do odd things like that.

[Chuck in Indiana]

same feeble/failing horn sound.

This is a new one on me.  Sounds as if the relay is chattering? Dunno. Do what Wayne says, though.

[wirespokes]

Sounds like a trouble shooting tree is needed. You know, a way of checking the system to locate where the fault lies.

I'd say that Wayne's idea that the starter could be failing with a dropped field magnet is a good one. The way to test whether the relay is the problem or not is to bypass it. Since the relay delivers electricity to the starter - do it yourself directly from the battery. Be sure the bike is in neutral! 

Run a jumper from battery + to the spade terminal on the starter solenoid (that's the connection the relay energizes). If the starter is healthy, it will crank the engine. The key doesn't even have to be on.

If the starter doesn't crank, you've probably found the problem.

[Groover]

This is almost like Jeopardy... I think the clue is in the question "I changed the battery a few weeks before this happened"

Try a different battery?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hi guys, I wonder if anyone might be able to give me the best way to go about finding the fault behind my starter relays blowing. My bike wouldn't start and the relay was making a sound like a very feeble and failing horn. I switched relays and she started. Cool. Then a few days later, the same problem, bike won't turn over on the starter and the replacement relay was making the same feeble/failing horn sound.

It seems there must be a fault somewhere to cause this. Is there anything obvious I hould be aware of.

I changed the battery a few weeks before this happened, but that's holding a good charge, and can't see anything obvious there.

Thanks in anticipation 

I think your relays are buzzing because the signal to the coil is erratic, this is causing the relay to arc and of course this is very hard on the contacts.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1994_California_1100.gif I think this is your schematic, it shows a relay (41) connected to the side stand, that may be where the problem originated (in the side stand switch (33)) it has always been a weak point.
As well as the ignition switch that Wayne mentioned I would go over the fuses to make sure the contacts are clean and tight.
Perhaps bypass the stand relay.
I don't thing running a direct feed to the start relay would help in this instance, if the coils dropping out a direct feed might even make it worse.

[Brian UK]

If the volts supplying the relay coil drop too much when the relay closes and the solenoid load is applied, the relay will drop out. Volts then rise enough to close the relay again and repeat.
Somewhere you have a poor connection.

[pehayes]

+1 on 'wirespokes' suggestion to bypass the system so as to verify that it is not a starter or solenoid problem.

In addition, clean and tighten any grounds involved in the circuit.  Find out where the battery's main ground meets the frame.  Clean and re-secure.  Perhaps add a second ground from  there to the starter mounting bolt.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[wirespokes]

Thanks Pat. You're right, I wasn't suggesting jumpering to the relay - but to the starter.

But I think Roy has a point - and something I forgot - the buzzing. I think when the starter locks up due to dropped magnets the relay doesn't buzz. Nothing happens. I think Roy is onto something looking for something blocking the flow. Perhaps try troubleshooting from receipt to source. Deliver 12V to the starter solenoid. Starter spins? Move to the solenoid, disconnect the hot lead, connect the jumper and try again, though it's doubtful the relay is the problem. The question is whether it's the control lead to the relay or the power lead.

The fun with problems like this is figuring out a troubleshooting plan; what to check, and where, to isolate and spot the issue.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I agree with Wirespokes, if you exercise the starter directly it will rule out the starter itself.
Connect to the solenoid spade connector with a 3ft length of wire, touch the other end on battery +
It will make quite a spark because its over 40 Amps so touch it firmly.
This tests the starter and battery as one.
Wouldn't a bike this old have a Bosch starter, no magnets to work loose like a Valeo.
If the bushes (bearings) get too worn the Armature rubs on the fields shows up as a polished armature
The brushes of course can wear down to a point they lose contact with the commutator,

[Groover]

Lots of great suggestions for sure. I'm leaning towards this one

Do try to inspect the ignition switch though. They often fail and melt the contacts out of the plastic.

[bodine99]

Hi guys, I wonder if anyone might be able to give me the best way to go about finding the fault behind my starter relays blowing. My bike wouldn't start and the relay was making a sound like a very feeble and failing horn. I switched relays and she started. Cool. Then a few days later, the same problem, bike won't turn over on the starter and the replacement relay was making the same feeble/failing horn sound.

It seems there must be a fault somewhere to cause this. Is there anything obvious I hould be aware of.

I changed the battery a few weeks before this happened, but that's holding a good charge, and can't see anything obvious there.

Thanks in anticipation 

Go back a check/tighten the batt cables first

[Murray]

Not enough current is passing through the relay coil to power it, get some contact cleaner clean the realy contacts and socket, fuse holders and fuses and the switch blocks.

 On the carbed bikes the start relay is also the headlight relay which it drops out the healight to give maxium starting current. It also passes through a couple of molex connectors which if the fist lot of cleaning doesn't solve the issue that would be the next thing to look at.

It is unlikely IMO there is anything wrong withthe actual relay itself. The action of swapping it probablly slightly cleaned the contacts alowed it to work for a little while.

[wirespokes]

When was the change made to Valeos? I know a 97Cali that's got the Valeo, and am pretty sure it came with the bike new. Did the 95 have a Bosch?

Let's follow the circuit and troubleshoot it systematically. That's really the way to fix stuff: figure out what's failing and fix. Sometimes it seems pretty obvious what's wrong and skip right to that step of the troubleshooting tree. Swapping stuff out or shotgunning the process hoping the fault falls out in the process isn't the best way to play the game. Since this isn't a side-of-the-road repair, let's learn something from it. Electrical problems can be some of the more difficult for a lot of us, mostly because we can't see those little electrons moving through those electrical devices and say "ahah! that's where they're going astray!!!" We have to understand what's going on, what's supposed to happen, and what we should expect to see at different points of the system. We have to know a bit about how it's supposed to work in order to understand why it isn't. So take a wider view and use this as a learning experience to advance understanding, rather than just a repair to get the machine back on the road.

Troubleshooting is a fault-finding process where you logically check the system to see where the 'chain of command' fails. 'A' causes something to happen at 'B', which then affects 'C'. There are two ways of checking for the failure - from effect back to cause, or the other way around. Either works. And do use logic. It may seem the fault is closer to 'cause' so start there.

In this case, the problem is the starter isn't working. Something wrong with that circuit. There aren't that many things connected with making the starter work, so let's check  them out. If there's a question of how to do it, ask. This is a good place to find out. It's my opinion electrical issues are the most difficult problems for most guys - from my experience dealing with the old bikes and cars I've owned. So if there are questions, ask away. You're among friends and now's the best time to learn. I took a two year electronics course at the community college in the mid '80s, and even though I never really used the data in a work situation, it did help me learn a lot about electricity. But I'm still learning, and there's stuff I don't know very well. So don't feel bad if it's a difficult area for you to wrap your head around. You're not alone.

[Wayne Orwig]

When was the change made to Valeos? I know a 97Cali that's got the Valeo, and am pretty sure it came with the bike new. Did the 95 have a Bosch?

The Valeo was being used before 1994. Not exactly sure what year they started though.

[izzug otom]

Sorry guys, I haven't had chance to look at my bike yet, I'll hopefully get chance tmro or Monday.

I think the starter i good, as when I changed the relay it turned the engine with ease.

I did change the battery recently, and I'm wondering if this may be the problem. The connecting poles are really pathetic. One small screw connecting a thin steel connector plate to the battery, and one small threaded screw to connect the terminals.

Any thoughts guys? This is the battery I bought MBTX20U http://www.motobatt.com/MBTX20U

Cheers Martin

[Brian UK]

That battery should be fine, but do check the terminals, the worst design I have ever seen. Very difficult to get them properly tight.

For what it's worth, Guzzi started to use the valeo starter around '88/89.

[izzug otom]

Truly crappy terminals they are too.

[izzug otom]

Am I right to assume that if the starter drops a magnet, then it won't be intermittent, it will just be constant fail?

Just so I can drop that as cause for concern if that's the case. 

[BRG-BIRD]

It wouldn’t hurt to have the battery tested to be sure, not sure if that would cause a relay to fail. Start small is what a very accomplished technician told me many years ago.

[Kiwi_Roy]

That battery should be fine, but do check the terminals, the worst design I have ever seen. Very difficult to get them properly tight.

For what it's worth, Guzzi started to use the valeo starter around '88/89.

Although the terminals are brass I would still assemble them with some grease, buy a small tube or jar of Vaseline from the chemist and use it on all your electrical joints, switch contacts and wire lugs.

[wirespokes]

Am I right to assume that if the starter drops a magnet, then it won't be intermittent, it will just be constant fail?

No. It can lock up the starter right away, but not necessarily.
It's possible for the dropped magnet to only interfere slightly with the armature for a time before the lock up.
It makes troubleshooting more difficult because you think it can't be the starter. I got stranded six or seven miles from home when a magnet dropped. It sounded like the starter wanted to work and I thought it was the battery. It was sluggish turning over, but started. Then the engine died and the next time the relay just clicked. By all indications the battery was low and I thought there was something wrong with the charging system. The LM1000 couldn't be roll started so went home and brought back a spare battery. When that didn't fix it, I knew it was the starter.

[Wayne Orwig]

Am I right to assume that if the starter drops a magnet, then it won't be intermittent, it will just be constant fail?

Just so I can drop that as cause for concern if that's the case. 

When my 1994 Valeo dropped a magnet, it was somewhat intermittent. When it failed, it was like a weak battery. So I replaced the battery first. It still would crank slowly, or not at all, sometimes. If I would jump start it, it usually worked fine. So it still tended to point to the battery. Then I found the failed starter.

[izzug otom]

Ok guys thanks, I much appreciate your thoughts. I hope to look at things tmro.
If it was a dropped starter magnet, would I not still hear the selenoid click?
All I get is the chattering relay.

I think I'll charge the old battery up and give that a try, just to eliminate the crabby connectors on the new one.
My starter is not that old, but I guess that's by the by.

[Wayne Orwig]

Ok guys thanks, I much appreciate your thoughts. I hope to look at things tmro.
If it was a dropped starter magnet, would I not still hear the selenoid click?
All I get is the chattering relay.

I think I'll charge the old battery up and give that a try, just to eliminate the crabby connectors on the new one.
My starter is not that old, but I guess that's by the by.

Too many years back for me to recall the 'sound'. What you say makes sense. I just recall that a jump start appeared to fix it. I was traveling and ASSumed it was simply a bad battery.

[wirespokes]

Like Wayne said, the jump might add enough oomph to make the starter overcome the drag of the magnet and not prove anything. Replacing the relay with the problem remaining pretty much says the relay isn't the problem.

What could easily be happening is the relay connects the lead to the solenoid, which then connects the starter to the battery. Because the starter is either locked or almost locked, it draws enough current there's not enough left for the solenoid. The solenoid releases, the starter is no longer connected to the battery, but your finger is still on the button. Now there's enough current to activate the relay, and so it tries again. And again. And again. It happens quickly enough it sound like a buzz.

The starter comes out in about five minutes. It's one of the easiest parts of the system to check out and where I'd start.

[izzug otom]

Hey guys, how do I determine if a magnet has dropped once the starter is removed?

[Brian UK]

Shake it and see if it rattles.
Otherwise take the end cover off and look.

[Wayne Orwig]

Pretty sure you will have to disassemble it. If a magnet comes loose, it is stuck to the armature and won't rattle around in there.

You might be able to momentarily apply power with jumper cables, and make sure it spins freely.

Did you ever measure the battery voltage while trying to crank it over?

[izzug otom]

Sorry guys had a nasty bug.

I'm just going to take a look with a mate. He's a bit more clued up on the electrics than I, thankfully.

I will try the voltage across the battery whilst the tarter button is pressed.

I'm only getting 12v on my speedo voltage reading, whilst across the battery is reading 13.6v, jut with the ignition key turned on, maybe that's an indication of a bad contact or earth connection.

One thing I can't understand Wayne, is why would a jump from another 12v supply work, when a good battery doesn't. It doesn't make any sense to me, am I missing something here? Cheers mate