Author Topic: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box  (Read 2810 times)

Offline Old Jock

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Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« on: January 17, 2022, 09:25:39 AM »
I know how much we all love an oil thread  :evil:

Up until now I've been running Redline Shockproof Heavy and it appear to have been fine, but looking into trans oils again for an R9T.

The Redline doesn't publish much hard data on it and it's not GL4 or 5 compliant. I've seen rather glib replies from Redline when questioned about this such as (I paraphrase) "We don't subject shckproof to these tests as it's such a unique product" Even viscosity data seems odd film thickness greater than a 75/250 yet low fluid friction like a 75/90.

This isn't an anti Redline thread, all I'm stating is that with a lack of hard published facts and not complying with industry recognized specs, I'm thinking about changing back to something a little more convnetional like a Penrite or Liquid Moly 75/90 or 80/90, both of these oil producers provide spec sheets and meet GL5 standards.

My own thoughts are the Redline has been Ok but after quite a short period it does tend to loose the slick shifitng it initially provides and that it does adhere to the gears, which appears to be a good thing, but the lack of specs and hard data about what it actually consists of makes me a little uncomfortable

Any thoughts anybody

John

Offline Stevex

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 10:29:14 AM »
You say 'older 5 speed boxes and bevels'; I thought GL4 was the go to as GL5 is known to cause corrosion issues of the 'yellow' metals.
I've just moved away from Liqui Moly GL4/GL5 and gone to Halfords GL4 (EP80W/90).

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2022, 10:58:01 AM »
Hi Steve

The older boxes do contain some yellow metal parts, that's true.

It's been a while since I checked but I've a vague memory that most GL 5 oils produced now are not harmful to yellow metals.

The original reason was due to extra Sulphur being added to the GL5 additives to reduce friction.

I believe that there is also something about GL5 not being used with synchronizers too, but that's not of concern to us

The simple answer is to ask the manufacturer or look at the FAQs on his website.

I'm leaning towards the Penrite full synth GL-5 oil and the yellow metal question is directly addressed in their FAQ, the Liqui Moly I'm not too sure right now

Offline TOMB

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2022, 11:51:43 AM »
I use Mobil 1 75/90 Syn. in the bikes I have owned, see signature below and miles ridden.

Current ride is a 76 Convert.

Mobile 1 is used, Trans, Rear Diff.

Torque converter DEX 111

Engine gets Mobil 1 15-50 Syn.

I wouldn't worry about the Group 5. I never had any issues over the years, and it appears others here had similar results.

A little light reading in link below.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/synchromesh-manual-transmission-lubricants.93561/#post-1231182

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/search/1070746/?q=corvair+gl4+gl5&o=relevance

Download PDF in upper right corner of 1st. page

Enjoy

TOMB
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 12:16:58 PM by TOMB »
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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2022, 11:51:43 AM »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2022, 02:28:08 PM »
I'm undecided on the Redline Shockproof pink goo.

I have opened up a couple of transmissions that had it in them. It sort of separates and leaves some thick 'spooge' (technical term 😄 ) behind. But that is not to say if it harmful.

My EV had fifth gear starting to whine after about 100,000 miles, with a lot of that towing a camper. Loud enough that I found it annoying even with earplugs. So, I poured in the pink Redline, and the noise mostly went away.
Again, not saying that is a good or bad think, it just did. I have a feeling it was not a bad thing.
About a year later, I replaced the gears. I still run the pink goo. Not for any specific reason.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2022, 02:41:32 PM »
Redline Shockproof Heavy is the only oil I recall where I had to shake it up to mix it after (shelf) purchase as if whatever they add to it can drop out of suspension.
Does it do that in service and end up at the bottom of the case or FD sump, who knows without looking.

I have a bottle of Bel Ray Sport Transmission Fluid for the Commando's 1970's gearbox (which does have bronze bushes and folk have run ATF in them for decades with no ill effect it seems) to try.
One of the trusted (opinion) members to me who was a long time user of Redline Heavy in that box noted a marked difference with that Bel Ray product so might try it in the Eldorado gearbox in the future.

The thing with gearbox oil is unless it fails how would you know if it is good besides noted improved shifting.

Are the teeth going to wear off, probably not.

Is someone going to remove and send any bronze parts out for examination for loss of material (even microscopic) I doubt it.
If it ain't broke it must be OK.

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2022, 02:43:32 PM »
NOT being a wise guy-why not use what is recommended by BMW?
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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2022, 02:51:05 PM »
NOT being a wise guy-why not use what is recommended by BMW?

The spec for that bike is GL-5 75w-90 which is a lot of available oils unless you put the as it came from the factory Castrol in the gearbox.

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2022, 03:27:21 PM »
Thanks for the replies

 Tomb; Interesting articles, thank you

Wayne; I always value your contribution goes without saying

LesP, I suppose the question is does it separate out and leave the heavier components of the mix at the bottom of the box?

I agree that unless something bad happens or the shift becomes horrendous you probably won't really know, the boxes are also pretty agricultural into the bargain. When I've changed the Shockproof in the past the change gets noticably slicker but the improved shifting doesn't seem to last too long

kingoffleece; This is not only for the BMW but also for the Guzzis. As far as BMW, they recommend their "own" (a Castrol product I believe) trans oil 75/90 GL5 loooking through some BMW forums you get much the same varied selection of brands and weights that you see for Guzzis. Not surprising given the bike's architecture is similar and the trannie is just another splash fed constant engagment box. Some on there run the Milkshake, but not so many. As far as weights, they're all over the shop, guess multigrade oil viscosity is less critcal with a transmission which will probably run around 60C.

Think I'll see how I get on with the Penrite.

Loads of people using the Pink/Blue Milkshake and I've only seen a couple of bad reports, Hardley boys seem to love it.

My paranoia, just have a nagging distrust when there are no specs or standards and information is at best vague.

Never say never though I may go back after trying the Penrite............ .who knows

LesP

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2022, 04:08:36 PM »
LesP, I suppose the question is does it separate out and leave the heavier components of the mix at the bottom of the box?

I agree that unless something bad happens or the shift becomes horrendous you probably won't really know, the boxes are also pretty agricultural into the bargain. When I've changed the Shockproof in the past the change gets noticeably slicker but the improved shifting doesn't seem to last too long

It was certainly like that when I opened the first bottle.
If 'some thing settles in the bottle sitting on the shelf I see no reason why it would not do that in service also. (Did I just start an Internet rumour)
With the final drive and the holes at the roof of the sump, if so and it settled I see no way for it to re mix. (if true)

I forget the distance from the gears to the floor of the gearbox but perhaps the same if the swirling in there could not agitate and resuspend the is it an additive in Redline.

The idea being add oil (I care less about the cost to some degree if it works) that will not accelerate wear of gears or bearings and make for the smoothest shift possible and at this stage that would be a quieter shift than that on my Africa Twin DCT.
Will it retain that, only time will tell and if not it was not the best oil for the application which would bring you back to the start. (Maybe the Bel Ray transmission fluid which does mention usable in wet clutches but why, what is missing that might be good)

At the end of the day you could use the cheapest oil or even used 'chip fat and the gearbox would still work and with some they would just adapt to any inadequacy as human nature can do.

As of a week back my Eldorado has plain old Castrol GTX 20/50 in the engine now until it gets Royal Purple 20/50 HPS.
If I find any settlement in the FD sump ($799 for the gears alone) the Redline will be replaced with something that at least looks like oil.

 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 04:12:31 PM by LesP »

Offline moto-uno

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2022, 04:19:07 PM »
  ^  Wow , I gotta say some of those sentences left me wondering ? Is English a second language or just
something you like to play around with ? :wink:  .  Peter

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2022, 05:29:34 PM »
  ^  Wow , I gotta say some of those sentences left me wondering ? Is English a second language or just
something you like to play around with ? :wink:  .  Peter

This comes as no surprise from you and of what value to the thread. (don't bother answering)

All I was trying to say is there seems to be some form of additive in Redline Shockproof Heavy that drops out of suspension.
I use that product in both the gearbox and FD and it is the main subject of the thread so responded but all you can do is make some childish remark.

Two years of -, two years of seeing no family, the loneness near debilitating on occasion. I apologise if my writing offended you.
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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2022, 08:17:46 PM »
I'll giving BelRay a try. When I had my last Harley the trans was horrible shifting unit. I tried several different lubricants including Shockproof. The Shockproof was miserable to get flushed out. I finally wound up using BelRay gear oil for twins. It worked the best of all those that I tried. I stuck with it until I traded it for my Audace.
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Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2022, 08:20:20 PM »
Please, gents... this is all very cogent and topical discussion, and it also is a discussion occurring in automotive circles. I personally am a bit wary of the Redline line of products, and there certainly is talk of the additive package dropping-out, "centrifuging-out" leaving very lean 'pickins in the bulk fluid that's left...
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Offline Scout63

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2022, 08:22:32 PM »
A man with your machining skills can write in stick figures LesP.  The world will still beat a path to your door.

I use Redline Shockproof in the Commando gearbox, which is handy for identifying whether a drip is from the crank or gearbox.  In the interest of simplicity city I use it in Guzzi gearboxes and rear drives for the same reason although drips are not common.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

Offline SoCV

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2022, 08:43:15 PM »
 If anyone has contact info for Les shoot me a message .

 Thanks

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2022, 08:55:55 PM »
LesP hand in there!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I'm old school. In a Loop 4 speed I run GL4, rear end of a 4 speed gets the same since I have it out. Loop 5 speed gets either GL4 or 5.

The old school part, Sta Lube has been working for 40 something years in all but my HD. In HD so far I've used the BelRay, but will probably just use Sta Lube next change.

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Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2022, 09:31:37 PM »
John,

The Pink Goo is good stuff, and hard to beat. I don't use it as it is almost impossible to clean out and drain and once you use it, takes forever if you want to change to something else. Have had a couple buddies try it to save a bad differential or trans, but when the unit failed and we disassembled, it was really hard to clean out.  I just use dead dino GL5 or whatever the units are rated for. No synth, nothing fancy.
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 11:58:24 PM »
LesP,    You've got mad skills and lots of valuable knowledge worth sharing, if this place brings you comfort and joy, I hope you continue to pull a chair up to the virtual camp fire and don't let a little noise keep you away.

     Re the red goo, I never used it before, but I will be for a while, I just bought a case of it  :laugh:

      I've read all the pros/cons etc and I hope I don't live to regret it,  :rolleyes:

      The reason I made the switch was this. I still haven't opened the 5 speed case on my CX, but I'm convinced that the scarf I started noticing after a stupid   :violent1: lazy no load downshift from 5th that caused a false neutral from h*ll, was the failure of the small radial bearing at the end of one of the shafts.

       I figure if that sticky red goop was sticking to cases, it "might" have stuck to that radial bearing and prevented the failure? idk.

        What I do know, is that after dumping some left over rear diff moly additive, labelled something like "manual tranny miracle slick shifting cure" :angel: into the tranny was when the failure occurred, I will never make that mistake again.

         With my luck, red goo will be made with the same crap  :undecided:

         fwiw
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Offline DAMMAG

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2022, 03:07:18 AM »
Le Mans MK3.

I was running Motul 80w90 (HD I think) in the gearbox and final drive. Wasn't too impressed with shift shift quality and the clunking noises during shifting.

Tried some old Nulon 75w90 I had laying around. Shifting was even worse.

On the weekend I changed the gearbox oil to Penrite 80w90 mineral. Seems to be cleaner/softer shifting with less noise. We'll have to see how it goes long term.

Damian.

Offline Huzo

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2022, 03:44:41 AM »
This comes as no surprise from you and of what value to the thread. (don't bother answering)

All I was trying to say is there seems to be some form of additive in Redline Shockproof Heavy that drops out of suspension.
I use that product in both the gearbox and FD and it is the main subject of the thread so responded but all you can do is make some childish remark.

Two years of -, two years of seeing no family, the loneness near debilitating on occasion. I apologise if my writing offended you.
I withdraw any enrolment in this website once and for all.
That’s pretty sad...
I don’t think Moto-uno meant that to sound as churlish as it did, but he “shot from the hip” and unfortunately hit a vital organ.
But it’s always going to be a dangerous area to play if you’re looking for a laugh.

Offline Huzo

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2022, 03:45:59 AM »
A man with your machining skills can write in stick figures LesP.  The world will still beat a path to your door.
+1

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2022, 05:29:12 AM »
Wow Didn't expect so many replies so thank you all

Please I'd rather not have the thread zapped

Following on from Huzo I'm in full agreement.

LesP Although I know nothing of your situation it sounds both sad and bleak, I hope it's resolved for you soon.

Please give it some second thoughts before leaving, many, myself included value your input, as you can see.

I've had threads pulled because of inadverdant remarks, it's easy to post a glib comment and the intention gets misconstrued.

The Redline has never given me any cause for concern, no bad noises and even after having it in a while, the shifting was no worse than I normally expect out a Guzzi box (ocassional false neutral, ocassional horrid "Clunk" but in the main fine). I'm sure nobody will regret using it, it's in hundreds if not thousands of Harley, Guzzi, BMW and God knows what else boxes. I've only seen less than a handful of bad reports about it, so there is little to be concerned about. It's the Marvo mystery oil aspect and glib/vague replies, to legitimate questions, from Redline that make me somewhat spectical.

Nice to hear somebody reporting positively on the Penrite, I'll report back on how I get on with it.

I am expecting to have residual Milkshake in the trans and bevel box (FD) unless I take them apart.

My experience on previous attempts to drain were hopeless if you just opened the plug, virtually nothing came out.

To drain it I heat the box with an air gun until it's warm bordering on hot, followed by spinning the rear wheel vigorously in neutral, that seems to work but it won't eliminate all of it.

Might flush the trans through with Parrafin (kerosene) and leave it for a few days to evaporate off.

Anyway great to hear the different opinions, from both fans and sceptics   :popcorn:

John

Offline Murray

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2022, 09:33:09 AM »
80w/90 hypiod gear oil in both, you can put the molly/graphite treatment in it if you want/helps you sleep at night modern oils are pretty good, change it regularly with the engine oil. Tried the redline and frankly it didn't do much over and above the regular mineral oil and was dead at 11000 kms. Oil in good condition makes the biggest difference, redline was three times the price for barely double the life.

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2022, 10:36:51 AM »
That’s pretty sad...
I don’t think Moto-uno meant that to sound as churlish as it did, but he “shot from the hip” and unfortunately hit a vital organ.
But it’s always going to be a dangerous area to play if you’re looking for a laugh.
Well put, on all bases, Huzo.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:38:25 AM by Cdn850T5NT »
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2022, 11:31:02 AM »
Redline can't be purchased locally, so I don't use it. I've rebuilt rear drives and transmissions that had been running it and there is separation going on - thick layer of goo on the bottom. Not encouraging.

I've been running Bel-Ray Gear Saver in 5 spds. and it seems to work perfectly well. The old 4 spds. get CRC Sta-Lube GL4 gear oil. Rear drives get whatever I fill the transmission with, moly with the CRC, none with the Bel-Ray.

Lately I've been trying Royal Purple Max Gear in my bikes. My friend Leo had a BMW R65 with a particularly noisy and reluctant shifting transmission and a switch to the Max Gear improved both dramatically. It's safe for yellow metals. Readily available here.
Charlie

Offline Stevex

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2022, 12:14:27 PM »
  ^  Wow , I gotta say some of those sentences left me wondering ? Is English a second language or just
something you like to play around with ? :wink:  .  Peter

Happy now?
If you've nothing constructive to say why not just STFU?

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2022, 12:30:06 PM »
That’s pretty sad...
I don’t think Moto-uno meant that to sound as churlish as it did, but he “shot from the hip” and unfortunately hit a vital organ.
But it’s always going to be a dangerous area to play if you’re looking for a laugh.
You know, Stevex, I think Huzo, above, puts it best...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 12:30:46 PM by Cdn850T5NT »
1985 Eurospec 850 T5 NT (Nuovo Tipo - New Type... i.e. Series III)

Offline Mr Revhead

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2022, 05:52:59 PM »
The main concern of GL4 vs GL5 is they are totally different specifications as far as pressure capability goes.
Broadly speaking GL4 is a gearbox oil and GL5 a diff oil.
Yes a lot of transaxles use GL5 due to the diff.

GL5 also does not play nicely with yellow metals, which is commonly used to make syncros, not an issue with Guzzis.

Yes you can have a oil that meets GL4 and GL5 specs.

Film thickness is separate from viscosity, so the way they phrase it "film thickness greater than 75w250 yet low friction like 75w90" is totally feasible and true.


If you are finding some sludge or similar after using Redline, it's not the oil. It's probably some containment or water/condensation. Redline is quality stuff and it's capability far exceeds what a Guzzi 5 speed will throw at it.

Penrite.... avoid. 99% of the stuff they put on the container is marketing BS and they hold virtually no approvals. They also dell many different products that are exactly the same, just in a different bottle to try and convince people they have the perfect thing for every application under the sun.

Offline moto-uno

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2022, 06:18:20 PM »
  I think there's been some dark interpretation of my earlier remark . Like other's , I read these posts with the
hope of finding information that may be of use to me . "At the end of the day you could use the cheapest oil
or even used chip fat and the gear box would still work " . Easy enough to understand and enjoy the levity of
the remark . "And with some they would just adapt to any inadequacy as human nature can do " . This is what
brought about the remark of his just playing around with us . For the life of me I don't understand what that
means in relation to the beginning of the sentence !
  Hope this clears up my response to his post , Peter 

 

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