Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Travlr on December 02, 2019, 06:58:32 PM
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In an earlier post Kev M wrote:
" I LOVE THE smallblock, it's the second coming (of the airheads), TO ME."
Since I've been considering an airhead, Kev's post got me thinking. Both are twins, both are shaft drive. So I did a comparison.
WB: R100R: 58.8" V7III: 56.9"
HP: R100R: 60 V7III: 52
Wet Weight: R100R: 469 V7III: 425
Power/weight ratio: R100R: 7.8 V7III: 7.45
Of course the V7III gets you ABS, FI, 6 speed etc.
I put a lot of miles on airheads. My fav is the R90S. Perhaps an V7III with cockpit fairing and hard bags?
(https://i.ibb.co/5LGXmkw/v7-sport-tour.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5LGXmkw)
(https://i.ibb.co/4MLhs2j/r90st.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4MLhs2j)
Mike
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In a word: YES.
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Yes but the V7 does just about everything better than any airhead. My /6 was great to look at and talk about. It had crappy suspension, brakes and acceleration. The electrical system would give Lucas something to brag about. Oddly enough, you can get a used V7 for less $$$ than a /6 due to the cult like following of the latter.
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Why stop the comparison with just the R100... What about the R90, R80, R65 (both chassis).
I've had a couple airheads, and when I first started looking at smallblocks about a decade ago I came to the conclusion that the Guzzi smallblocks were the closest thing to what the airheads were plus some modern amenities and arguably a more engaging motor.
Ymmv
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Don't forget the newest Airheads are 24, soon 25 years old.
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Yeah, but.....
where/when is the aftermarket support?
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I don't remember there being THAT much more aftermarket support for airheads in the 90's.
But that was never my point in making the comparison.
The similarities:
* Air-cooled
* 2-valve
* Pushrod
* Twin
* Longitudinal crank
* Shaft
* Dry clutch
* Cartridge oil filters
* Simple valve adjustment
They are more similar than not in things like size and power. Certainly more like each other than most other bikes out there today.
Obviously there's a lengthy list of differences too, but I think that list is a lot bigger with anything currently from JAPanInc, BMW, Triumph, even RE.
Perhaps an Ural solo should be a contender but I think they've evolved differently due to the predominance of sidecar usage.
So yeah I still say they are the heirs of the legacy or the closest thing to one.
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The good old days
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-TP5KMRs/0/2b20f9fa/M/IMG_0017-1-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-TP5KMRs/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-GvcPJGc/0/c88c92e2/M/IMG_0018-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-GvcPJGc/A)
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Yes, yes they are. And that’s why I like the small blocks.
I tell people if you like old airheads, you will like a SB Guzzi. If you hate airheads, you probably won’t like a SB Guzzi.
I had a 1978 BMW R80/7 that I loved to bits, but divorce/first wife caused its loss or I’d still have it. I wound up buying a new 2013 V7 Stone because I figured it was the nearest thing I could find new to my old airhead.
Overall performance is comparable, which is a performance envelope I grok. Reasonably quick if you give it lots of throttle. But you can’t do Banzai passes uphill on a 2 lane road against 3 logging trucks. Yet plenty of fun on mountain roads—just surf the torque, no need to shift constantly.
All day comfortable with a bikini fairing and the right handlebars (Norman Hyde “M” bars). I run mine at 80-85 mph all day. Top speed 100 or maybe 105.
In my opinion, the Guzzi handles *considerably* better. Brakes are vastly better. It is nice to have cast wheels and tubeless tires—no more spoked wheels/tubed tires for me.
Gas mileage is about the same (41-45 mpg) but I had about a gallon more on the airhead (the Guzzi still has a decently large 5.2 gallon tank).
I like the Guzzi engine “feel” and vibes a lot more. The airhead is a neat old funky engine, but the Guzzi is just a lot better.
Guzzi gear box is considerably smoother. Still a “long throw” gear box that encourages emphatic shifter action.
My Guzzi doesn’t have ABS or traction control. Don’t really want that stuff.
I’m frankly ambivalent about fuel injection and all the other computer stuff. The really irritating problems I’ve had with the Guzzi have been due to an early ECU failure, then a failed engine temperature sensor, and then a string of crank position sensor failures (or connectors in that circuit). As much as I like the genuine technological advances of better handling and tubeless tires, I think I’d be just fine with carbs and points compared to ECU and flaky electronics.
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Yeah, but.....
where/when is the aftermarket support?
Well, here in Germany it is extremely good. Only one example: Wunderlich https://www.wunderlich.de/shop/en/classic-by-wunderlich.html?___from_store=de .
A good friend from my flying club has 2 bikes. One an Ur-VFR 750 and one a newly achieved R100/7. The latter because in his youth he had an R80/7 in the same colour (metallic blue). With bikini fairing. I just rode the bike for a longer time. I must say it does not everything worse than my 2013 Stone which I love dearly. The BMW has a dramatically better suspension (ok both bikes have progressive springs in the forks). The seating position is better. It is not in the least as nimble as my Guzzi but equals the Italian bike in neutrality. It is definitely as desirable as my Guzzi. For a longer ride the BMW is the better bike.
By the way before he commissioned the bike he put some work into it. The carbs e.g. he did rebuilt. He was able to get everything he needed for this. Plus an aftermarked electronic ignition. For reasonable prices.
In terms of character these bikes are absolutely comparable.
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Well, here in Germany it is extremely good. Only one example: Wunderlich https://www.wunderlich.de/shop/en/classic-by-wunderlich.html?___from_store=de .
A good friend from my flying club has 2 bikes. One an Ur-VFR 750 and one a newly achieved R100/7. The latter because in his youth he had an R80/7 in the same colour (metallic blue). With bikini fairing. I just rode the bike for a longer time. I must say it does not everything worse than my 2013 Stone which I love dearly. The BMW has a dramatically better suspension (ok both bikes have progressive springs in the forks). The seating position is better. It is not in the least as nimble as my Guzzi but equals the Italian bike in neutrality. It is definitely as desirable as my Guzzi. For a longer ride the BMW is the better bike.
By the way before he commissioned the bike he put some work into it. The carbs e.g. he did rebuilt. He was able to get everything he needed for this. Plus an aftermarked electronic ignition. For reasonable prices.
In terms of character these bikes are absolutely comparable.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I meant...BMW airheads have widespread aftermarket support, Wunderlich, Touratech, Twisted Throttle, etc. See nothing comparable for MG.
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The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original equipment on the v7 is far more reliable. There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.
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The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original equipment on the v7 is far more reliable. There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.
For sure, though it's probably always going to be smaller just because of the difference in production numbers. But even though Guzzi smallblocks have been around for decades their peak popularity is still pretty new. And in that, they are STILL PRETTY NEW and don't need a lot of the rebuilding stuff that's currently being offered for airheads only because they've been out of production for so long.
But again, I wasn't comparing the sales success or dealer network or aftermarket support when I made the comment. I was purely talking about the similarities between the bikes (design, ride, feel, and service).
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The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original equipment on the v7 is far more reliable. There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.
The aftermarket is less a matter of reliability than it is “farkle-ing” (is that a word?) a bike to ones personal taste in accessories.
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For sure, though it's probably always going to be smaller just because of the difference in production numbers. But even though Guzzi smallblocks have been around for decades their peak popularity is still pretty new. And in that, they are STILL PRETTY NEW and don't need a lot of the rebuilding stuff that's currently being offered for airheads only because they've been out of production for so long.
But again, I wasn't comparing the sales success or dealer network or aftermarket support when I made the comment. I was purely talking about the similarities between the bikes (design, ride, feel, and service).
The aftermarket support for my ‘80s Airheads was quite good in the ‘80s. ......and remains so today.
...and yes I understand and agree with your comparison of the essence of each, but just wish there was comparable support outside OEM. If/when I wanted fairings, windscreens, seats, rearsets, luggage, etc etc for the Airhead there were and are multiple choices available. That’s all I’m sayin’
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The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anything.
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but just wish there was comparable support outside OEM. If/when I wanted fairings, windscreens, seats, rearsets, luggage, etc etc for the Airhead there were and are multiple choices available. That’s all I’m sayin’
Me too.
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The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anyhing.
Not much gets by you.
Except everything (i.e. the point).
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Your right! I don't get the point.
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The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anything.
According to the canons of the Airhead Beemer Club, an airhead is any BMW with air-cooled heads...including /2s, R69S’, R60s, R67s, R5s, R26s, etc. That makes the origin of these bikes considerably more aged...
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According to one of my Guzzi books, the SB was as first sold in 1977, I presume I. Europe.
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Interesting thread. When I got my license in 1996, there wre three bikes I really liked; SRX600, XBR500 and BMW R65 Mono. A freind had an R65 and it looked like a superb touring bike for 1, and thats what I wanted to do. Maybe with a B750 I have sort of got a refined version. :laugh:
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Your right! I don't get the point.
The original airheads were light, simple, air cooled twins with shaft drives. They were easy to work on and friendly to ride. The motto of the BMW Airheads club is "simple by choice."
Many of us still enjoy that style bike. In an era of increasing complexity, the V7 still retains many of those characteristics.
Mike
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The original airheads were light, simple, air cooled twins with shaft drives. They were easy to work on and friendly to ride. The motto of the BMW Airheads club is "simple by choice."
Many of us still enjoy that style bike. In an era of increasing complexity, the V7 still retains many of those characteristics.
Mike
Logic is Lost on Lance
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Logic is Lost on Lance
So is Moto Guzzi.
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So is Moto Guzzi.
True, but that's a totally separate conversation.
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Perhaps the Subject line needs to read: "Is the '09 and later V7 series the new Airhead?" Even that might not be specific enough though. :wink:
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Perhaps the Subject line needs to read: "Is the '09 and later V7 series the new Airhead?" Even that might not be specific enough though. :wink:
Perhaps people ought to take this a little less seriously.... and maybe measure with yardsticks instead of micrometers.
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Logic is Lost on Lance
Are the oilheads any harder to work on than the air heads? If not are the oil heads the new airheads?
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Are the oilheads any harder to work on? So are the oil heads the new airheads?
Legitimate question. Of course it's not the only metric I used when making my comparison, so in a word "NO".
Even my 96 R1100RS was certainly "more" complicated including longer valve adjustment procedures due to the 4V heads.
But my comparison is based on much more than that.
I don't see how one would a V7 is more like an airhead than an oilhead on many bases, despite the fact that a decade later the smallblock got EFI and just recently they finally added ABS.
The quote that started this thread should be taken in context of how I've explained it regularly over the last decade or two. That the Guzzi smallblock line is the closest thing you're gonna get new today to what the Airhead was and might have become if BMW had continued to built it and simply modernized some components (like adding EFI and ABS).
But INSTEAD BMW went a different way with the oilhead and that was much more different than most of the airheads from motor to suspension/chassis despite the fact that a few of the late airheads had paralever most did not and AFAIK none of them had a telelever (which really changes the front end feel and performance).
So again my conclusions.... the closest we have new today closest to the spirit of the airhead and pretty damn "simple by choice" bla bla bla
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Lovable twins like the Airhead,the V7, the Hinckley Bonnevilles, and others is just a well-balanced genre. I am most impressed that the V7 has held true to the vintage priority of light weight. This is a weight class that offers bikes that can handle most any road...even those great Forest Service routes that we all love.
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As I've said, I absolutely hated my R90/6 (after a while). I sure wouldn't want to have the small block remind me of one.
I bet it wouldn't.
Moto
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Moto. Just out of curiosity, why did you absolutely hate your R90/6?
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Moto. Just out of curiosity, why did you absolutely hate your R90/6?
It had a gangly, awkward riding position -- mostly the handlebars and the weirdly shaped tank, plus the foot peg position. I felt like I was riding a toilet equipped to steer like a wheelbarrow.
It vibrated and the brakes were weak. The suspension, especially the front, was badly damped.
Not only that, the transmission locked in 2nd gear 650 miles into an 1800 mile loop of a trip and I had to ride 400 or so miles up the coast of Oregon and Washington, in 2nd gear, to get to any shop that would look at it. This took the bloom off the rose.
About the same time I got my T3, a much better bike in every way, I found.
Moto
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About the same time I got my T3, a much better bike in every way, I found.
Agreed, although the airhead guys and girls will throw rocks at me. <shrug> A friend had an R90S, and we swapped bikes for a weekend. I thought, "This is what everyone is raving about??" Didn't float my boat at all.
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Perhaps people ought to take this a little less seriously
How about: "Is a small block the modern CX500?" Or is a CX500 more modern than a small block? :grin: :grin:
Mike
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Moto, half of what you mentioned could have been changed (ergos) and my comparison does allow for the smallblock to be there more developed/better version with a more engaging motor.... Just staying.
How about: "Is a small block the modern CX500?" Or is a CX500 more modern than a small block? :grin: :grin:
Mike
Uhhh, no, not even a little MCHonda the fast food of motorcycles need not apply.
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Moto, half of what you mentioned could have been changed (ergos) and my comparison does allow for the smallblock to be there more developed/better version with a more engaging motor.... Just staying.
not even a little MCHonda the fast food of motorcycles need not apply.
Kev,
I'm not saying no one could love a BMW. The frame itself felt wrong to me, especially compared to the Tonti frame. Just not at all the same kind of bike. I should probably stop elaborating about now!
Moto
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Yes. Kinda what I was thinking when I took this photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/fd8nbXC/IMG-0405.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fd8nbXC)
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Kev,
I'm not saying no one could love a BMW. The frame itself felt wrong to me, especially compared to the Tonti frame. Just not at all the same kind of bike. I should probably stop elaborating about now!
Moto
Well first, it's all good, just a conversation. We're just expounding our opinions on the matter. No one has to agree with me.
I don't share memories about my 80/7 or our R65, or my bud's R65LS like you're saying. Then again if my only experience with an airhead had been Jay's /5 my opinion would probably be worse than yours.
So I'm curious about your particular experience and thoughts, but their existence (and accepted truth) still doesn't negate my feelings in my comparison, at least for me.
Maybe that's cause just like I realize there were different models and generations of airheads there are (to a lesser extent, but still are) different generations and models of Guzzi smallblocks. Maybe even more now if you include the V9 and V85. And I don't necessarily like the riding position and feel of all of them either. Though I'll admit to liking more than not.
But again I'm not saying airheads and smallblocks are the same... I'm saying closest in s lot of ways.
But in your case I understand that it's good that it's not THAT close right?
I can get that too. All good.
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I felt like I was riding a toilet equipped to steer like a wheelbarrow.
Good one. No wonder you didn’t like it!
What was the deal about getting stuck in 2nd?
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I generally liked my R90/6 but coming from nearly 100k on a short wheelbase R75/5 it was a much better bike. There were things I didn't like. The stands were terrible, both side and center. The seats on both were absolutely terrible. They sloped forward enough that I was alway sliding into the tank. But I made a few changes, different bars, heavier springs in the forks and Fox rear shocks. A friend owned a R100RS that he let me take it for a spin. I didn't think it felt much different than my 90.
I quit riding a number of years ago but got back into again about 6 years ago. I went to the darkside and rode Harleys up until this past July when I got my Audace. I can afford only one bike at this time but I think I would like to have a V7 in the garage. I think it would be perfect for local riding but I have never ridden one. I will ask the dealership the next time I am there if there is one I could ride even though I have no intention of buying it. I need to pay off my home improvement loan first. Then again when my Audace gets to heavy for me I would probably be looking at a V85TT Traveler. Decisions, decisions, decisions, but not for awhile. I just have to be content rebuilding a YA6 125cc Yamaha this winter.
kk
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What was the deal about getting stuck in 2nd?
Broken shift return spring. Couldn't dislodge it.
Part of a longer epic. My future wife and I rode two-up from southeast Idaho to the coast of Oregon and then up to Seattle, from there back through Montana to Idaho Falls. We crossed one low mountain range from Idaho into southeast Oregon against the advice of locals, camped in the south Oregon desert, and broke down just as we pulled in to an overlook above Crater Lake, Oregon. I was refused help by every BMW dealer I called within hundreds of miles.
So I calculated a top speed for 2nd gear -- 52 mph, I think -- and headed north along the coast. We crossed another low range along the Oregon coast at night in dense fog and sleet that I really feared might kill us, looking for a place to stay. The regulator and stator finally gave out (from continuous high rpms) in a complete failure of the electrical system, stopping us about 30 miles from my sister's house in Bremerton, Washington.
I paid an independent mechanic several hundred dollars for repairs, and he showed me the broken spring. Back through the Lolo Pass to Montana, dipping into Idaho again along the Salmon River, and home, all safe and sound.
Now here's the irony. I'd bought that R90/6 because I thought it would be reliable, in the expectation of making that exact trip. The previous owner had had a good amount of work done on it by the local BMW dealer, including a complete rebuild of the transmission. When I got home I found the itemized receipts. There, in the list of parts replaced, was the charge for the new shift return spring. It was less than a one dollar part, and it had broken after less than two thousand miles of service.
Granted, Guzzis also break return springs, but after this I'd had enough of that bike.
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Wow. Thanks for sharing an interesting story.
I’d probably hate that BMW pig too!
So tell us. And be honest. How did the T3 treat you over the years?
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My BMW shifter return spring spring failure occurred at the very north end of Passo dello Stelvio at the end of a long day. I stopped in Mals Venosta for the night. The next morning I figured out that it would be possible to ride in third gear all the way to Munich where BMW repairs are easy to arrange, and I did it by 2 PM. Two days before I was in Sicily, so it worked out OK. I was also lucky to be stuck in third... but FWIW I’m told it’s possible with enough man power to tip the bike upside down and shift to the gear you want with gravity now working in your favor!
I was and I suppose still am pretty well acquainted with the people who invented the Airhead concepts, meaning that label and the ‘simple by choice’ mantra. When they came up with that stuff that they were mostly riding later model BMWs than the 70s style boxers... for example B Jan’s 1990-whatever R100R. The later ones work pretty well by comparison.
There really is something to the Airheads appreciation of those bikes, and I agree that the attributes they appreciate in them can at least to a degree be seen in the newer Guzzi small blocks too.
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Wow. Thanks for sharing an interesting story.
I’d probably hate that BMW pig too!
So tell us. And be honest. How did the T3 treat you over the years?
It's been great. Never left me stranded. I love the long low riding position (sport bike bars) and the great, massive flywheel. It's got Wixom saddlebags and a flyscreen, and is painted black. Loaded up with gear and a tent and a bag of charcoal it will fly all day at 90 mph if you can find a place to do it. It also corners well, without drama.
I''ve put thousands of dollars of parts and hundreds of hours of labor into it of course, but never begrudged a dime or a minute. Notable repairs and upgrades include new clutch and flywheel, Gilardonis, new instruments, recovered seat, new paint, fork cartridges, springs, shocks, etc., etc., all part of the experience. It starts up more reliably than any bike I've owned.
It's no showbike, though.
Not all Tonti bikes are the same. This is a short steering head frame, almost identical to the same-era V7 Sport and LeMans I. Though its motor is in a mild state of tune, when stripped down (and fitted with low bars) it is a similar, sporty ride. I enjoy it more than my Griso, I find myself thinking pretty often.
Moto
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Broken shift return spring. Couldn't dislodge it.
Granted, Guzzis also break return springs, but after this I'd had enough of that bike.
Exactly what happened at my 2013 Stone last autumn. It was expensive. Do I hate the bike now? No.
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Agreed, although the airhead guys and girls will throw rocks at me. <shrug> A friend had an R90S, and we swapped bikes for a weekend. I thought, "This is what everyone is raving about??" Didn't float my boat at all.
I can understand and agree with that view. I remember being absolutely thrilled at the opportunity to ride a friend's R100. Finally I get to ride a BMW!!!!! I found it to be a very bland bike with little character. I remember wondering if the R90, R80, R65 was a much better balanced bike. My Nevada has much more charisma (IMSMO) then at least that single BMW.
I also recall riding a demo R1100 when they first came out (1995?) and being so impressed I considered buying one.
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Broken shift return spring. Couldn't dislodge it.
Part of a longer epic. My future wife and I rode two-up from southeast Idaho to the coast of Oregon and then up to Seattle, from there back through Montana to Idaho Falls. We crossed one low mountain range from Idaho into southeast Oregon against the advice of locals, camped in the south Oregon desert, and broke down just as we pulled in to an overlook above Crater Lake, Oregon. I was refused help by every BMW dealer I called within hundreds of miles.
So I calculated a top speed for 2nd gear -- 52 mph, I think -- and headed north along the coast. We crossed another low range along the Oregon coast at night in dense fog and sleet that I really feared might kill us, looking for a place to stay. The regulator and stator finally gave out (from continuous high rpms) in a complete failure of the electrical system, stopping us about 30 miles from my sister's house in Bremerton, Washington.
I paid an independent mechanic several hundred dollars for repairs, and he showed me the broken spring. Back through the Lolo Pass to Montana, dipping into Idaho again along the Salmon River, and home, all safe and sound.
Now here's the irony. I'd bought that R90/6 because I thought it would be reliable, in the expectation of making that exact trip. The previous owner had had a good amount of work done on it by the local BMW dealer, including a complete rebuild of the transmission. When I got home I found the itemized receipts. There, in the list of parts replaced, was the charge for the new shift return spring. It was less than a one dollar part, and it had broken after less than two thousand miles of service.
Granted, Guzzis also break return springs, but after this I'd had enough of that bike.
Sounds like an excellent pre-marriage, acid test, for choosing a wife! Hope it worked out well in the long run!
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Sounds like an excellent pre-marriage, acid test, for choosing a wife! Hope it worked out well in the long run!
I actually subjected several young women to similar tests, looking back. They all passed. Maybe I should have assigned grades.
Moto
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I've had an '86 R65 for 20 years and done about 200,000 km on it. I've had an '08 Breva 750 for 3 years and done 70,000 km on that. Both are simple, comfortable, easy to work on, reliable and fun so, yeah, maybe the small block is the new airhead.
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I’d much rather have my newer V7II than an old airhead . But that’s just my eccentricity showing !
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I’d much rather have my newer V7II than an old airhead . But that’s just my eccentricity showing !
Oh me too...
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Not thinking about it until now but it begs the question are URAL's the new airheads since they are in current production?
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Not thinking about it until now but it begs the question are URAL's the new airheads since they are in current production?
Nope
Already addressed.
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Nope
Already addressed.
Wadda about the movie?
(https://i.ibb.co/JcCwtRC/Airheads.png) (https://ibb.co/JcCwtRC)