State of Moto Guzzi

[professor]

I bought my first Moto Guzzi and it is a good motorcycle, different in many ways from the others I have owned, but none the less a sound buy. Looking at a new Griso today. So I get the MG message.

To know the brand better I bought most of the Guzzi books on line on Amazon. One in particular stood out; Moto Guzzi, The Complete Story By Greg Pullen. Printed in2013 in England. The last chapter held my interest for a second read. Very up to date.
Here is what I learned from Chapter 8, entitled The Future.
It puts some of the threads here in perspective.
1. MG as part of Piaggio is seen as a niche product. High quality, low production. A premium brand which they can charge more for.
2. Two other manufactures influence MG, Harley Davidson and Royal Enfield. Both retro styled brands with heritage like MG.  Both very successful. HD in America. And RE producing 70,000 bikes a year, building a new factory to double production and a four to six month wait in the home market for a bike. And yes, the Big Four sell in India. RE also has a new 750 vertical twin due out and in R&D now. Interceptor?
3. Piaggio's target for MG is 20,000 bikes per year.
4. The target markets are Germany, France and Italy. American cruiser styling has sold well there. Even if HD have not. (Yamaha V-Max sold very strong in France. They like big bikes)
5. Can MG be built outside of Italy and do well. Some say no. Others say yes and point to BMW and Triumph. Both with third world factories. Would you buy a Ferrari from Thailand?
6. MG does not need to be cutting edge. HD is current, but not cutting edge. RE is not even current, just updated slowly.
7. MG needs a 500cc single and may get one. A horizontal engine.
8. MG knew the four valve motors had a camshaft wear problem, recalled bikes and fixed the problem.
9. Volume is relative to the market. The top UK dealer sells 14 to 15 California models each year. Bulk sales are V7. ( 14-15 bikes!! A good month at a BMW dealer)
10. Piaggio has a master plan for all of their products. MG is right on schedule with the New V9 Roamer. It fits into the "Urban 20 to 35 year old" market which is world wide, not just US Hipsters. If HP were the primary issue no 44 HP Sportsters would sell. They do. Style matters most to this demographic.  (HP matters most to sport bike riders)
11.  American styling is more important than the American market. Piaggio Design Center is in Pomona Calif. BMW choose American Roland Sands to design the Nine-T. It is a success every where in the world.
12. Piaggio is very healthy with MG, Vespa, Gilera, Aprilia, Derbi and Scarabeo brands.
13. Motorcycling is slowing (dying??) in developed countries. The surge is in developing countries. So, niche marketing Premium Brands makes good business sense in the west. There may not be new riders coming along quickly and in volume. HD's new bikes (500 and 750) are for foreign markets primarily.
The above is the opinion of the book's author and his analysis. You may not agree.

[Vasco DG]

Since point 8 is patently wrong it renders the rest of his opinions meaningless.

[professor]

Indeed, I wondered about that as I read it. Certainly did not match up with the material on this website. The text is adamant that the issue was resolved.

[Mike Harper]

Since point 8 is patently wrong it renders the rest of his opinions meaningless.

I agree with  Pete here.

Is it  possible that what I have heard all  along about   "Those who can do and those who can't write "
Is true?

[Doppelgaenger]

I do think MG is at the top of the "retro" bike in terms of quality product with reliability and good components stock. I can only hope they start innovating again now that they've built up their lineup of small block bikes. MG has shown some of the most innovative thinking in the history of motorcycles, they need to come out with a knockout punch. I maintain my desire to see a 90 degree V4 in a guzzi along the lines of Motus, only without the stupid price.

Piaggio is pandering to the market with MG and not looking forward, I almost wish they'd bugger off and allow the brand to innovate, but then Guzzi would just go bankrupt again.

Royal Enfield might be making 70,000 bikes a year, but they're not good bikes. If they sold them in the west for the prices they charge in India they might actually be worth buying and sell like crazy, but since they feel the need to double the price over here they just become bad jokes. They aren't worth that kind of money and any kind of used bike for the same price is going to be a better deal.

[professor]

Agree in regard to RE. Rode one the length of India. Many problems. I once had Bullet Walla ten years old change a cable and adjust the valves. Every village has one.

On the Four Valve issue, here is the author's source if it matters. Paul Harris owner of Corsa Italiana, Walton-on-Thames UKs largest MG dealer. Sells only MG. Quote from Harris;" The issue of the eight valve head is absolutely sorted. Everything was recalled and some even got new oil pumps and bigger oil cooler. It might have been component suppliers dropping standards: all I know is that we were told to do the work and we did it. I am not aware of any one having problems any more." Page 166.

So, all Pullen did was quote the UKs largest and most successful MG dealer. He sought creditability.  But, still it does not square with this forum and the expertise here. Appears like in near any endeavor that involves money, the truth is always elusive. Resolved any interest I had in the prior to 2013 four valve head bikes.

I wonder if they were recalled in all markets?

[professor]

August 24, 2014 - (Press release edited by webBikeWorld) - The Motorcycle Industry Council reported that sales of street bikes, off-road bikes and scooters increased a significant 2.5% in the second quarter of 2014 from 1Q, with sales up 2.6% over the second quarter of 2013.

Dual-sport motorcycle sales were up an amazing 12% percent (384 units) from the second quarter of 2013, with off-road bikes up by nearly 21% (1,243 units) from the same period last year. Scooter sales were up by 208 (4.9%) compared to the second quarter of 2013.

Sales of street bikes were down by 1.5% from Q2 of 2013 but overall, the Q1 and Q2 2014 sales of street bikes were up by 1.7% (~3,000 units) from the first six months of 2013 as a comparison.

Meanwhile, the Piaggio Group reported slow scooter sales in North America, which affected their overall global sales goals. Combined Vespa, Aprilia and Moto Guzzi sales for the first 6 months of 2014 were reported at 278,500 units, a decrease of 20,000 units from the same period in 2013.

North American sales increased by 3.2% but scooter sales were down 2% during that period. However, Piaggio reported that they have 25.4% of the European market in scooters and 21.3% in motorcycles.

Piaggio also opened the first Chinese Vespa store in Beijing.

[pyoungbl]

The Pullen book was printed in 2013 so it was probably actually written in late 2011 or early 2012.  As I recall, that's about when many of us were thinking that any flat tappet problems seen with 8 valve engines were likely the result of over cooling or owner abuse.  There were only a very small number of known failures.  I can see where the UK distributor could easily be in denial since that market probably sold only a fraction of the bikes sold in the USA and our total sales are laughably small.  I'd guess that less than 2,000 8V bikes had been sold in the US (700 total annual sales, 50% small block...so 350 big block per year in 2008-2012).  Add in the fact that many bikes do not rack up many miles per year and that the failures usually happen after some mileage, then the statement starts to make sense.  Now, some four years later we see a different reality.

Peter Y.

[rocker59]

Points 3 and 6 are also rubbish.

3.  Aprilia declared the 20,000 unit goal in the early 2000s.  Piaggio doubled-down on this goal and in 2006 pushed production to 10,000.  Then they colapsed.  down to 2500-3000 for several years.  Now they're back up to 7000 +/-, but 20,000 is a pipe dream, and not likely at the top of Piaggio's current list of priorities for Guzzi.  In other words, old news when this book was written.

6.  HD is full of high-tech.  They have been leaders in fuel injection, throttle by wire, and anti-lock brakes.  Also leaders in electrics, not to mention production techniques.  This guy knows nothing of HD, other than what he's heard from detractors.  HD wraps its high tech in vintage clothing.  What's going on is under the skin.

[Cool Runnings]

6.  HD is full of high-tech.  They have been leaders in fuel injection, throttle by wire, and anti-lock brakes.  Also leaders in electrics, not to mention production techniques.  This guy knows nothing of HD, other than what he's heard from detractors.  HD wraps its high tech in vintage clothing.  What's going on is under the skin.

HD is full of high-tech (A single pin engine)? 

[tazio]

The Pullen book was printed in 2013 so it was probably actually written in late 2011 or early 2012.  As I recall, that's about when many of us were thinking that any flat tappet problems seen with 8 valve engines were likely the result of over cooling or owner abuse....

Peter Y.

understatement of the year!lol
~and a lot of "not so" funny one liners thrown at anyone daring to suggest otherwise.
An open mind can be a beautiful thing.

[Vasco DG]

I've always had an open mind. That's why I'm able to say I was wrong. I needed EVIDENCE though. Not just shrieking hysteria from people who were actively wanting the new motor to fail. It took me six/seven years to aquire the evidence. When I had it I admitted I was wrong. I have no problem with behaving like a grown-up.

Pete

[professor]

I really like MG even though this is my first one. So, I want them to make the 100 year mark in 2021.
My reading else opens my mind up to some questions.

Is the revamping of the 1400 line enough to boost sales worldwide? Piaggio put plenty of money into this project. They stepped up to the plate.  The US Style Center drove the restyling of the new bike. And it is not foo far from the restyled Goldwing. So, certainly within the "modern" eye. But is it enough?

Would MG be able to sell a liquid cooled engine? Or would it be better to use the Triumph, HD, BMW model and make the liquid engine look air cooled? In Triumph's case even a carburetor. Given emissions do they have a choice?

MG is very fragile. Producing 10,00 and under units leaves no room for error. Offend the core base and you're dead. MG cannot be Kawasaki and do a " 300 HP Hyper-bike" or any thing near that. The money is not here. Kawasaki motorcycle is a very small part of Kawasaki Heavy Industries. But, should they stay married to the "V" engine?  Twenty-five years ago De Tomaso tried to move away with Benelli and MG integration and failed to convince insiders in the company to move.

I would imagine the average of a MG big block buyer is about 47-50 years old maybe older. You can't build a company as HD found out on the Geritol generation. Eventually they die. Young buyers must come into the fold. What about them? Enhanced V7s? The Roamer seems to accomplish that at moderate development cost and stay within the envelope or MG paradigm. Pete made a dramatic point in regard to the "Traditional" bike in another thread. But does MG actually have a choice give the resources available from Piaggio? Resources from the market place?  Can MG be radically different and still be accepted in the market place?

My dealer told me yesterday as I looked at the Griso; "they have to play it safe. BMW they are not." I noticed that in Europe KTM is the fastest growing brand with strong gains each year. Broad base of buyers. I bought a DUKE single and it is indeed a marvel. At 350 lbs and 70 HP it rips. How I'd love to see something like single that from MG. Derbi within Piaggio has some bike close so the ability is there. 

In all due respect to age. It is very easy to be critical and nay say. Much more difficult to be proactive and creative and then turn that into financial success. Every new idea comes under the eye of the past. It either escapes to find it's own way or dies (killed).

[canuguzzi]

No, you can't build a global company that reaches the top tier in sales on the backs of the Geritol crowd, yet that is what HD did. It wasn't 20 something's paying 20 grand for a HD that got them to the top, it was an improvement in quality, reliability and in not screwing over customers.

It does not cost money to put a bolt on tight enough, it does not cost money to make sure two parts are aligned properly during assembly, it does not coast money to answer a phone and guess what,

It does not cost money to be honest and open with your customers.

The constant excuses as to why MG can't do this or that should go into a book, the one called what not to do when you make motorcycles.

MG behaves and operates the way it does because it sits on the apologies and excuses of those who think a bike for sale that is well sorted is being sold out of pride and not exasperation and frustration and the realization they did manage to put lipstick on a pig.

Who is going to say that not tightening fasteners, putting parts together haphazardly costs more than just doing it right?

It cost more to wire the starter correctly than the stupid way they do it?

Were it not for apologists and explainers of mediocrity MG would be selling more bikes and today it would be the brand to own instead of the one so many new buyers rush to get rid of within a year or two of ownership.

[Kev m]

HD is full of high-tech (A single pin engine)? 

You confuse an iconic design choice with technology.

[professor]

So your thesis is; MG needs a quality management effort. A TQM? Much like any Japanese company or HD did.....finally.

[Arizona Wayne]

Whatever MG needs to right the ship.............th e front door is locked so they can't get in.      Move on, nothing new here.

[professor]

True sentiment. MG cannot survive outside Piaggio. For better or worse Piaggio is in charge. They are a profitable multi-national corporation with diverse products. Vespa is pure tradition, copied by near every body in the far east.  Piaggio scooters new technology in scooters. Derbi and Gilera to the small bike market. Aprilia to the sport bikers and go fast. MG is the iconic brand that we have our love-hate relationship with.  And they will do well in China too.  As a corporation they will do as they please....and must do to make a profit.  You know that when you buy a MG. If that pains you go else where. I've no problem with it. I know what my MG is and is NOT.   As for HD they built the modern corporate structure on the aging Baby Boomers and their disposable income at that particular point in time. Once the mortgage market collapsed and the second and third mortgages went away from over inflated real estate...so did the buyers. Who also aged out of the market as well.  You can't SUSTAIN, continue or project long term growth on an aging (dying) population. Witness the 500, 750 and Sportster markets. Or if you choose market attempts.  Not 50,60 or 70 years old. The paradigm of yesterday, often fails today. HD is not guaranteed a second hundred years. They will earn it. As will MG. The question I pose is how to do that and on what platform. Honda is big enough to try to create a new market niche. MG, I fear must respond to what is there without loosing ground.

[Cool Runnings]

Piaggio BV 350 (30hp)

[bad Chad]

Wow, there I s some major blow veating pushing fast out of completely unknowing sphincter s.   

Let me know   when you guys are running your own multi billion dollar companies, then perhaps you will have some credibility.

[oldbike54]

Wow, there I s some major blow veating pushing fast out of completely unknowing sphincter s.   

Let me know   when you guys are running your own multi billion dollar companies, then perhaps you will have some credibility.

 I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night 

 Let's not get too heated up here fellas , just the internet and all , besides , seriously doubt if the mothership is listening 

  Dusty

[professor]

Cycle World called the BV 350 the most innovative engine design in the world powering a scooter. High praise indeed. Especially considering that BMW used Kymco for theirs.

I would add one last thing to think about. HD does not sell motorcycles, they sell a "lifestyle".  Clothing, accessories and what ever else that identifies the buyer with that particular lifestyle.  Harley riders all wear the "uniform" bought at the HD dealer.  Ducati Scrambler is a lifestyle machine and brand (Ducati says so), complete with clothing. RE in it's stores in London sell the new RE lifestyle. Bullet Heads are into the RE lifestyle. Vespa stores sell the scooter lifestyle. The newest store is in China's capital city. Triumph clothing says this is my lifestyle. My vehicle identifies me with a certain way of living life of seeing life. HD is the extreme it says "All American Values."  What ever that is? Different things to different people.

MG is getting actor Ian McGregor to say; "this is the machine for my life style."  Young guys want to be Ian.  MG does not want to sell motorcycles. It wants, via Piaggio, to sell a lifestyle. Lifestyle breeds brand loyalty and peer acceptance. Creates a community. Peer acceptance is very big with human beings. We want peers to say; "Man that is a cool bike, you are cool". Manufactures nurture this.

Now, I  know in advance that I will hear; "I march to my own drummer. I don't need to be cool" Bet my pay check you are not 30 years old either and if you are you are not the majority. Motorcycles in the west are not transportation. They are jewelry, you wear them. It is not about cams, pistons, bearing and gears. OR horse power.  It is about how you look on the machine. In Viet Nam and far east many times you ride because you need to go somewhere to survive. But, here in the west young men look so very cool on the Nine-T and older men think they do as well. At least until the helmet comes off.

So, MG must create a lifestyle if they can. Not loose the traditional buyer and move forward with new bikes under a lot of government pressure in regard to emissions and all within a limited budget under the thumb of a hard nose capitalistic master called Piaggio. I think they are doing pretty darn good given the constraints.

[canuguzzi]

  Everything is lifestyle connected. Everyone here who own a Moto Guzzi dies so because it fits their lifestyle.

Sorry, but HD sells motorcycles. They happen to seel good ones that people will buy because they work, you can get parts just about anywhere, they have great dealer support and so on.

No matter how much lifestyle goes into marketing, it is just that. The bottom line is they pay attention to their market and sell to it and sell good stuff. I'd never buy one, not for me but there is no arguing they sell high quality.

[oldbike54]

 Are red suspenders a lifestyle choice 

  Dusty

[Kev m]

Sorry Professor, but though I understand what you are saying from a marketing perspective it's still just semantics saying that their BRAND is tied to an image that they use to drive want/sales.

But that doesn't preclude the actual need for a real product behind that image, whether we're talking about Harley, Ducati, Triumph, BMW (cars or bikes), Benz, Porsche, Audi, Apple, Gap, or whoever.

All the marketing on the world can only go so far without the product. Eventually The brand will whither and die without a good enough product.

As for Transportation vs. Image it's not all black and white. Some buy strictly for recreational usage, some for their choice of practical usage, most for some combination.

Let's face it, most car or truck purchases in the US are based on desire as much or more than need.

[oldbike54]

It will do, I just acquired mine!

 Just had a vision , a certain Navy officer showing up for inspection , all decked out in his resplendent dress whites , wearing red suspenders 

  Dusty

[professor]

Kev you are 100% correct. Substance matters. But remember, building a better product will not guarantee sales. People must be lead to it and believe it makes them better, prettier, faster, cooler and stand out.  It takes both sides. MG has yet to find that balance. Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.

[oldbike54]

Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.

 Hey , we have Luigi 

  Dusty

[professor]

Tell him to crank it up! And to put some lock tite in the muffler shield bolts. And yes rewire that darn starter on the Norge. It sucks.

[Kev m]

Kev you are 100% correct. Substance matters. But remember, building a better product will not guarantee sales. People must be lead to it and believe it makes them better, prettier, faster, cooler and stand out.  It takes both sides. MG has yet to find that balance. Ask Victory motorcycles. It took Arlen Ness to make them cool.

God I think the Ness influence has been what was holding them back. They've been mechanically great, but stylistically challenged.

Indian makes more of a splash with essentially the same tech, but better styling and a loose claim on a brand name to which the styling is tied..

So yeah, you need a combination of marketing image and substance.