State of Moto Guzzi

[tazio]

I've always had an open mind. That's why I'm able to say I was wrong. I needed EVIDENCE though. Not just shrieking hysteria from people who were actively wanting the new motor to fail. It took me six/seven years to aquire the evidence. When I had it I admitted I was wrong. I have no problem with behaving like a grown-up.

Pete

Mr.Pete, when it comes to Guzzi knowledge and informative contributions to this forum, I ain't a pimple on your ass.
I also stand by the statement that many disparaging remarks have been leveled (for years) at members that dared to suggest
an alternate view on this flat tappet fiasco. That is all.
I haven't called your name out on this.

 Fraternally yours,
 Michael

[Arizona Wayne]

Everything is lifestyle connected. Everyone here who own a Moto Guzzi dies so because it fits their lifestyle.

Sorry, but HD sells motorcycles. They happen to seel good ones that people will buy because they work, you can get parts just about anywhere, they have great dealer support and so on.

No matter how much lifestyle goes into marketing, it is just that. The bottom line is they pay attention to their market and sell to it and sell good stuff. I'd never buy one, not for me but there is no arguing they sell high quality.



Really?  if you ask any top honchos at HD they say they don't sell motorcycles, they sell a lifestyle, so you are completely off.   Good try, grasshopper.  What I posted here has been MGs attitude before Piaggio became their owner.  I don't see it changing any time soon, no matter what anyone here thinks.    I'll believe real change when I see/experience it.

[oldbike54]

 Wayne , just curious , how many top execs at HD have you asked this question ?

  Dusty

[professor]

God I think the Ness influence has been what was holding them back. They've been mechanically great, but stylistically challenged.

Indian makes more of a splash with essentially the same tech, but better styling and a loose claim on a brand name to which the styling is tied..

So yeah, you need a combination of marketing image and substance.

Kev they were dying before Arlen Ness restyled the bikes when first introduced.  Not my taste either. But go back and research why they hired Arlen and Corey. Ness is recognized in that niche as the "Man".  I speak the truth. Indian sells the name Indian. Top Brand recognition. Which just happens to be very good motorcycles as well. Would they sell as well if they were named Polaris?? That is why they paid the millions of dollars for privilege and right to use the Name Indian exclusively.

[professor]

No matter how good your product, how well built, how functional......to be successful someone must desire to buy it. Someone must want it enough to pay for it. Being well made is not enough if no one recognizes your product for that or any other quality. Marketing identifies the potential demographic of the consumer pool and attempts to created a demand within that pool of potential buyers.
If a product becomes the center of a consumers lifestyle...ie Jeep and off-roading on the week ends. ATVs in the desert with the family. Adventure bikes and motorcycle vacations. Touring bikes aa a vacation vehicles then you win. A portion of their life and time centers on your product. Provide them with a club...HOG Riders, Goldwing Owners, BMW Owners and you have a peer group and a social community around your product. Peer pressure to remain within the group. And continue to buy your product. The clothing line helps ID people as members of the group. Basic Marketing 101.

My point is that MG has none of this and is attempting to build it to a limited extent. I repeat HD sells lifestyle as much as motorcycles. People what to be part of it. It is asocial network of like minded individuals. Instant acceptance.

There is reason MG targets Germany, France and Italy. HD has no real advantage here. The big blocks (California) fill that market niche nicely. And have. And the V7 fills the "urban metro scene."
Last, go the thread on this forum Entitled "Because They are Cool".  This very sweet girl may not know a piston ( or maybe she does) from a connecting rod. But she knows "cool". MG marketing reached her. And she bought a V7. Experienced guys talk (this forum)  design,  parts, specs and numbers. New riders talk "cool".  Good motorcycles are of the heart, not of the head.   Marketing makes cool. Engineering makes quality. You need both. Just as we need quality sales and dealer service.

My research after reading every book on MG in print available on Amazon. I bought a step child. Neglected. Forgotten. Misunderstood. Mistreated.  As brilliant as it is flawed at times. But with a soul that when allowed to speak stirs me. I love this thing. I want to know more about it. I was asked; "why did you buy that thing??" Because it is alive and it speaks to me. This ain't no appliance homey.
 

[mg940]

I tend to agree with the professor  the world is obsessed with image not reality I own a Moto Guzzi because I like to be different to the general crowd and I get spoken to wherever I stop because I ride something different yes its a heart decision because there are a myriad of alternatives that make more sense from a head perspective also yes most people on this forum have mechanical knowledge as do I and I have always been interested in mechanical technology and have followed F1 since 1980 once I realised I was never going to own a Ferrari Moto guzzi was my affordable replacement yes I know Pete will say they are not a Ferrari fair call but they are as rare  particularly mine as its a Bellagio  but marketing is king in todays world because only us old guys keep anything long enough for it to breakdown HD Ducati Triumph Ferrari etc probably make more money from T shirts and caps then from bikes and cars I can afford a T shirt or cap I cant afford the product but wearing the badge is more cool for young people that's why they pay $90 for sneakers when you can have the same ones from the same chinese factory for $10 but with the wrong brand on them    I work with a lot of young people who don't know how to open the bonnet of there car cant read a dipstick you expect that from a girl but most young blokes are now the same most things run on lowest common denominator  don't lift them up bring everyone down to that level thats why an oil change at a dealer costs $100s instead of $30 might work for us oldies if we live long enough by the way Im only 50 

[Kev m]

Kev they were dying before Arlen Ness restyled the bikes when first introduced.  Not my taste either. But go back and research why they hired Arlen and Corey. Ness is recognized in that niche as the "Man".  I speak the truth. Indian sells the name Indian. Top Brand recognition. Which just happens to be very good motorcycles as well. Would they sell as well if they were named Polaris?? That is why they paid the millions of dollars for privilege and right to use the Name Indian exclusively.

I'm not sure that the evidence supports Ness' stylistic influence as the factor for their growth.

Personally I think there bikes took a step backwards in aesthetics at that point. The sharp angles, spindly turn signal stalks etc. No thanks.

Hell I've got a friend who traded his older, more organically styled Vic on a newer one, only to sell it and buy another older one.

I think Indian is working out for them because of a combination of selling the heritage AND better styling.

The cruiser/traditional bike market is rough on designers. Harley sets the benchmark and everything else runs the risk of being called a copy or a caricature. Indian has legitimate claim to a similar organic look that is neither and THAT I believe helps their sales.

But, as usual, the quality product is there and that is job one.

On this subject of marketing and image, I think some "authenticity" or arguable tie to said traditional look is important.

It's a factor in the successes of Harley, Triumph, and arguably even Guzzi with the current smallblock.

It's also why JAPanInc. struggles with that market segment.

[Kev m]

MG940, you cover a lot of ground with that post.

I disagree with some parts.

For starters, I don't think the past was all that different. A look at history shows that people are generally the same and generally make the same mistakes and assumptions.

I don't think everyone who rode a motorcycle was always a passionate gear head. I don't think all kids today can't wrench.

I do think trends in technology and reliability have reduced the pressure for riders to be mechanics so there may be a swing in demographics. I just don't think it's a total change.

As for merchandizing it's a common belief that I hear bantered about. Maybe it comes from other forms of it, like movie and toy companies, but that's a different model.

I can't say for sure (and suspect no one that isn't in the accounting or management of a major vehicle producer can) but I suspect strongly Harley and every vehicle manufacturer does NOT make more on the t-shirts and clothing.

If you read Harley's annual report the revenue from bike sales is many, many times the revenue from motorclothes and merchandising. I realize those are gross numbers and not net, but the scale alone suggests my stance.

I know a local Harley dealer pays $10-12/t-shirt (his cost) and self them around $30. So even assuming net of $20/shirt be needs to sell > 85 shirts to make the margin on one 883, or as many as 175-200 shirts to make the margin on dresser models.

And that is only margin in MSRP, not including any markup for freight/prep/financing/service contracts etc.

[molly]

Point 8 of the original posts shows the state of denial in the U.K. dealer network. I have must have phoned half a dozen dealers and got the same response (actually two denied point blank there was a problem), all the while knowing my local dealer was saying much the same as Pete Roper is now, albeit at least 12 months earlier.
The default attitude from the dealers is basically to sell bikes and worry about the consequences later. Nothing unique in this but for Guzzi in their niche market status it has been the kiss of death. They haven't got the range of engines that say Honda offer to dilute the fallout so the impact on the brands reputation has been greater.

Dealers probably now view the flat tappet problems as a thing of the past and are ploughing on selling the the new models which hopefully are reliable, with hardly a glance over their shoulders. Which is I suppose is understandable in the cut throat sales business. It just leaves this forum to carry on the hand wringing.

[Cool Runnings]

Panheads forever... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMV7xpq13Ec

[professor]

My MG gets photographed when parked. People look. My friend's new Harley, not a glance. Way too common. His Knucklehead get photographed. There is some pleasure in owing the uncommon. I have beat this subject to death. It appears that MG will do what it pleases in terms of product development and placement. There is a gap between Italy and the US that even the Design Center did not fill. I rode every new Goose the dealer had in the demo fleet. The big blocks are heavy. The Griso is close to what I want. But I come from KTMs. So, I am jaded. I'd love to have a nice 1200 standard on the V7 model or pattern, just upsized a bit.  The BMW twins seem to do OK in this format. But my research indicates and history illustrates that MG and Piaggio will go in their own direction. I don't think they have a clue as to how to utilize focus groups. I attended several put on by Yamaha and they were indeed enlightening. They seemed, seemed genuinely interested in what we had to say in regard to new products. Soon (two years) after the FZ09 and FZ07  came out. And of course both went to the top 10 in sales. Much consumer input. HD does the same with it's loyal following.

[pebra]

But my research indicates and history illustrates that MG and Piaggio will go in their own direction. I don't think they have a clue as to how to utilize focus groups.

Yeah, Piaggio seems to be stuck with us......