Author Topic: Wearing Hi Viz  (Read 2207 times)

Online Huzo

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2022, 10:09:37 AM »
Yeah, if you’re about to get Liberace’d, no amount of bling will protect you.

Online Sye

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2022, 10:38:08 AM »
Best addition for reducing crashes is a 6" metal spike sticking out from every steering wheel.

Other than that, I always assume they haven't seen me and I do wear a bright reflective vest.

Offline SIR REAL ED

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2022, 10:44:16 AM »
Nah, no tattoos for me SRE..
Can’t be bothered putting up with pricks…

I applaud your choice in swimwear.....
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Offline SIR REAL ED

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2022, 10:51:45 AM »
Best addition for reducing crashes is a 6" metal spike sticking out from every steering wheel.

Other than that, I always assume they haven't seen me and I do wear a bright reflective vest.

That is the greatest automobile safety tip I have ever read.  I salute you sir.

No doubt most tailgaters and red light runners do so because they feel invincible.

All drivers knowing they will have to "ante up!" in case of an accident would be a great deterrent!

Imagine the reduction in traffic court case loads.

Easy tied into existing smart car technology, if you are one car length per 10 mph behind the car in front of you, there is no spike.  As you get closer to the car in front of you, the spike extends farther and farther out from the steering wheel.
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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2022, 10:51:45 AM »

Offline SIR REAL ED

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2022, 11:11:07 AM »
I have been riding with a hi-viz yellow mesh jacket for years.  I find the mesh jacket over a tee-shirt to be cooler on a hot sunny day than just a tee-shirt.  Due to blocking the sun I assume.

A few years back, I was riding the back roads and stopped to buy two cantaloupes (bigger than a softball but smaller than a soccer ball) from a roadside stand that I knew had excellent melons.  So I stuffed both melons inside my jacket to carry them home.

Riding thru a few small towns on the way back, it seemed my visibility had increased at least ten fold!!!

Weird, huh?

the Dolley Parton effect? 
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Online Huzo

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2022, 01:27:45 PM »
I have been riding with a hi-viz yellow mesh jacket for years.  I find the mesh jacket over a tee-shirt to be cooler on a hot sunny day than just a tee-shirt.  Due to blocking the sun I assume.

A few years back, I was riding the back roads and stopped to buy two cantaloupes (bigger than a softball but smaller than a soccer ball) from a roadside stand that I knew had excellent melons.  So I stuffed both melons inside my jacket to carry them home.

Riding thru a few small towns on the way back, it seemed my visibility had increased at least ten fold!!!

Weird, huh?

the Dolley Parton effect?
Yeah, I use that to good effect.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2022, 03:44:19 PM »
Given the number of road menders and loads of other wearers of yellow hi viz I feel that it is of limited use.


I don't get your logic there.

If there are other people on the road who are not getting hit by cars because of the yellow hi viz how will that hurt our goal of not getting hit while wearing yellow high viz?!?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 03:45:01 PM by Kev m »
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Offline Speciality

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2022, 03:33:46 AM »
My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?

Online Sye

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2022, 05:13:48 AM »
My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?

Good post but you will never know whether you were lucky or not. Road positioning, correct gear and speed for the conditions, awareness and defensive riding are all part of our survival tool kit. Daytime headlight and standing out like a budgerigar help with visibility but are not a magic bullet. Advanced training is up there too and is one of the most beneficial. Personally, I take advantage of everything out there and similarly have been accident free for over 50 years of riding.

Offline SIR REAL ED

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2022, 08:28:16 AM »
My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?

I have often thought the same when I see a deer whistle mounted on someone's car, truck, or bike.  No telling what the deer will associate the noise with, but with a high population of deer whistles on vehicles, the sound of the whistle will simply become the sound of traffic.  ie: part of the environment near a road.

Same thing with headlights on during daytime driving.  Humans are very adept at not noticing anything that is commonly experienced.
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2022, 08:37:15 AM »
Remember, it’s not the speed that will kill you, it’s stopping forward motion to quickly that gets you!
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Online Stretch

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2022, 08:51:36 AM »
Quote
there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact.

Yep - just like the 3rd brake light. When they first came out decades ago, they DID reduce rear end collisions for a short time.
Then people got used to 'em, and now they're back to running into one another.

(What's the record in the US for a pileup on the interstate: 80-something vehicles?! Why? Following too closely, driving too fast for conditions, and not looking far enough
ahead for changing road conditions. Tell me I'm wrong.....)

I always ride like I'm invisible. Always have an out other than panic braking. No, that's not ALWAYS possible, but you've got to
try to maneuver to make it so if you're caught in a bad situation. Keep space around you. Approaching an intersection or someone
who looks like they are capable of making a left turn? "Jink" a bit - move laterally in the lane to make yourself more visible. Flash
your lights? Hmmm.... maybe not -  the other driver could interpret that as an invitation to complete the LH turn, and do so. Remember
that you're a relatively small object and speed of approach is something that drivers habitually misinterpret with motorbikes.

Leave LOTS of room up front!

Anticipation is WAY more important than just relying on reflexes.

There's a school of thought that says that ANY accident that a motorcyclist is involved in is the motorcyclist's fault. Got rear-ended?
You should have been more aware and left enough room to get out of the way. Retread came off of an 18-wheeler in heavy interstate
traffic and hit ya? Should have anticipated that scenario and had an out. Ran over something in the road? Should have been paying more
attention and left enough room up front to maneuver.

Too harsh? Yeah, probably - but looking at things that way keeps one from becoming too complacent, which is the object of the exercise.

"Prepare for what your enemy CAN do - not what you THINK he will do." I've almost certainly slightly misquoted that - who said it? Somebody
on this forum will know......

OTOH, wearing bright clothes can't hurt!    :grin:

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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2022, 09:39:52 AM »
Stretch, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the 3rd brake light no longer reduces reared collisions?
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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2022, 11:56:01 AM »
The new one for me are the flashing yellow lights. Used to be that they were on Highway DOT vehicles and tow trucks. Now every pickup with a name on the door drives around with flashing yellow lights. Now they don't stand out at all. The only ones that stand out are the flashing red and blue. :copcar:
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Offline Texas Turnip

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2022, 02:23:36 PM »
Interesting thread.
I can't count the amou nt of wrecks I've seen where an idiot plowed into safety cones, flares, flashing lights, police cars and fire trucks.

Million mile rider Karl Wurth didn't ride with a bright yellow jacket. Randy Tefft has a black jacket and he has lots of miles.

I've been hit while unloading gas at a station and I had my 4 ways on and safety cones out.

Do what makes you  feel good.

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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2022, 03:20:11 PM »
I would hate to see the damage the TX Turnip does to the front end of a car!

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Online Stretch

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2022, 05:33:45 PM »
Quote
Stretch, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the 3rd brake light no longer reduces reared collisions?

Chad, pretty much everybody agrees that when the third brake light was introduced, it definitely reduced rear-end collisions.
A quick troll through the internet also shows that everybody pretty much agrees that the effectiveness has decreased with time.
The big question is, how much has that effectiveness decreased over time?

Some sources say that there's virtually no difference any more, while government sources
say that they still reduce accidents, but provide no hard numbers to support that claim.

Looking at things anecdotally, I don't think it makes much difference any more, and one or two of the sources I've cited
seem to agree with me there. That's my opinion - YMMV.      :grin:



https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc-rear-end-safety-autocover-0901-20160831-story.html

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2022, 05:40:34 PM »
Problem is..
When you say “there’s no difference anymore”, you are presuming you know what the stats would be if the change had never been made in the first place and you never can.

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2022, 05:52:11 PM »
Am I making a couple of assumptions here?

Oh, yeah!  :laugh:

That's why it's an opinion.........

My point was agreeing with Speciality's point that Hi-Vis is becoming less effective the more
people wear it. I think he has a point, and the 3rd brake light was my analogy. And the 3rd brake
light doesn't appear to be as effective as it was at first.

And I'm also gonna continue to assume that I'm invisible to car drivers.....  :wink:

(Although not to cops with radar guns!)   :copcar:

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2022, 06:09:31 PM »
If someone told me that the wearing of high visibility clothing would give me a 5% advantage. then I would take it.  Nothing is 100%, but a bit of risk management is better than nothing.

I also add extra light to the rear of my bikes.  Here's one such example.  Helps with the night visibility, and I've noticed that many cars stay back a little more at the stops.

https://youtu.be/5GX626ivc_g
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 06:14:12 PM by kballowe »
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Online Huzo

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2022, 06:23:25 PM »
Am I making a couple of assumptions here?

Oh, yeah!  :laugh:

That's why it's an opinion.........

My point was agreeing with Speciality's point that Hi-Vis is becoming less effective the more
people wear it. I think he has a point, and the 3rd brake light was my analogy. And the 3rd brake
light doesn't appear to be as effective as it was at first.

And I'm also gonna continue to assume that I'm invisible to car drivers.....  :wink:

(Although not to cops with radar guns!)   :copcar:

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Ahhh yes Stretch.
When I used the term “you” I didn’t mean YOU…
My point is that if one claims that a certain measure is “not as effective as it used to be”, one must factor in the other variables that are conspiring to make the sample mor hazardous than it once was.
The new safety measure may very well be more effective than before, but the regime that it exists in has become correspondingly more dangerous.
I could make the erroneous case that seatbelts are killing more people than they save, because the world road toll is greater than it was when they were mandated 50 years ago.
It’s just that there are 20 times more cars on the road now than then, so massively more collisions.
Now you only have 10% of 1000 crash victims dying…(100)
Back then you had 90% of 50 crash victims dying…(45)

I could say based on that Mickey Mouse reasoning that seat belts are dangerous and have no benificial effect.
Yet clearly, without them in my model, you’d have 90 deaths per 100 crashes….We’ll never know and do not have the current data to make a calculation.

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2022, 06:49:35 PM »
Huzo, you're right - the comparison between the effects of a third brake light in 1985 and
2022 is certainly NOT apples to apples. Lots of variables there. Just traffic volume alone is
completely different. The result of arguing for or against the effectiveness of that dratted
light is NOT going to result in a black and white, irrefutably clear answer.

I suppose at this point I have to apologize for my large contribution in hijacking the
Hi-Vis thread! Sorry about that....... :sad:

Back to colorful clothing!

Aerostich will sell ya a complete suit in Hi-Vis.

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2022, 06:54:27 PM »
Huzo, you're right - the comparison between the effects of a third brake light in 1985 and
2022 is certainly NOT apples to apples. Lots of variables there. Just traffic volume alone is
completely different. The result of arguing for or against the effectiveness of that dratted
light is NOT going to result in a black and white, irrefutably clear answer.

I suppose at this point I have to apologize for my large contribution in hijacking the
Hi-Vis thread! Sorry about that....... :sad:

Back to colorful clothing!

Aerostich will sell ya a complete suit in Hi-Vis.

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Me too Stretch…Love ya’  :kiss:

Online Stretch

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2022, 06:59:23 PM »
LOL!

Offline Kev m

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2022, 07:05:13 PM »
My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?

Ahhh, here it isn't so common as to have lost it's ability to stand out.

Yes highway workers use it, but they are hardly common.

That said, common shouldn't be an issue. As most drivers don't constantly hit things that are common. It's not the commonality that is necessarily the issue.

When DRLs became the standard on cars some used the same argument that bike accidents would increase because of some perceived "commonality" where headlights would no longer single then out as somehow "special" or 'unique". But most people avoid hitting other cars and it matters not if they think your headlight means you're a car or a bike, they would likely prefer not to hit you. I don't think the commonality hurts the effectiveness.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2022, 07:13:28 PM »
Chad, pretty much everybody agrees that when the third brake light was introduced, it definitely reduced rear-end collisions.
A quick troll through the internet also shows that everybody pretty much agrees that the effectiveness has decreased with time.
The big question is, how much has that effectiveness decreased over time?

Some sources say that there's virtually no difference any more, while government sources
say that they still reduce accidents, but provide no hard numbers to support that claim.

Looking at things anecdotally, I don't think it makes much difference any more, and one or two of the sources I've cited
seem to agree with me there. That's my opinion - YMMV.      :grin:



https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc-rear-end-safety-autocover-0901-20160831-story.html

NHTSA
DOT HS 808 696
NHTSA Technical Report
March 1998

https://www.woodrufflawyers.com/blog/2016/10/rear-end-car-accidents-and-modern-vehicle-requir

                                                         -Stretch

Eehhhhhhh your first source says:

"Still, the consensus seems to be that the third-light mandate worked. As far back as 1995, an insurance institute study concluded that model year 1986 cars experienced 5 percent fewer rear-end collisions from 1986 through 1991 than would have been expected without the high-mounted lamp"

And the second references the first as it's source.

I don't think it says what you seem to think it says.
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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2022, 07:32:09 PM »
Yep.

Quote
....collisions from 1986 through 1991.....

For 5 years it WAS more effective - with effectiveness apparently steadily decreasing.

If it was still as effective in later years, then we'd expect the percentage, (NOT #) of rear-end collisions to remain flat, yes?
But as was discussed earlier, there are other factors involved, and even the experts agree that the
picture ain't as clear as they'd like it to be. And we don't have those statistics from prior to 2014, so we
can't really say definitively. It would seem from the increase in rear-end accidents that something isn't
working, eh? Like maybe people are not paying as much attention to that 3rd brake light anymore?
It would seem that with more SUVs and pickups on the road compared to the 1980s, and the 3rd brake
light higher up off the road in most cases as a result, that the light would be more visible and therefore
more effective. But people following too closely would negate that effect......and on and on we go....
It could also be that the 3rd brake light is still VERY effective and the carnage without it would be much, much worse...........  :shocked: :shocked:

Quote
Between 1988 — the earliest figures available — and 2014, the percentage of fatal crashes that involved rear-enders actually rose from 4.6 percent to 5.2 percent. Rear-end injury accidents also increased, from 24.9 percent of all crashes to 28.7 percent, according to the NHTSA. Likewise, rear-end property damage-only collisions increased from 23.5 to 29 percent, and the percentage of rear-end accidents jumped from 23.8 to 28.8 percent.

But such raw data can be misleading, experts said, because other factors are involved.

Entertaining debate, but enough for me tonight.
Good Night, everybody!

                                               -Stretch


 



« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 07:38:14 PM by Stretch »

Offline lucian

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2022, 07:45:01 PM »
I think cell phones should be required to be hi vis so when ass wipe drivers drop them to the floorboards they can find them quicker, and maybe be upright in time to slam on the binders before they mow one of our sorry asses over.

Offline Kev m

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2022, 07:47:12 PM »
Yep.

For 5 years it WAS more effective - with effectiveness apparently steadily decreasing.

If it was still as effective in later years, then we'd expect the percentage, (NOT #) of rear-end collisions to remain flat, yes?
But as was discussed earlier, there are other factors involved, and even the experts agree that the
picture ain't as clear as they'd like it to be. And we don't have those statistics from prior to 2014, so we
can't really say definitively. It would seem from the increase in rear-end accidents that something isn't
working, eh? Like maybe people are not paying as much attention to that 3rd brake light anymore?
It would seem that with more SUVs and pickups on the road compared to the 1980s, and the 3rd brake
light higher up off the road in most cases as a result, that the light would be more visible and therefore
more effective. But people following too closely would negate that effect......and on and on we go....
It could also be that the 3rd brake light is still VERY effective and the carnage without it would be much, much worse...........  :shocked: :shocked:

Entertaining debate, but enough for me tonight.
Good Night, everybody!

                                               -Stretch

Didn't the same article you sighted say there were other factors.

You can't say it was no longer effective because too many other variables changed.

But i personally think that without conclusive evidence to the contrary it's unwise to assume it no longer helps.

Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline Scout63

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Re: Wearing Hi Viz
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2022, 09:20:53 PM »
I go both ways.  I’ve installed Denali driving lights on some bikes and I feel that they really help me be seen.  I also buy helmets in white and wear a hi-viz mesh jacket in the summer. BUT - when it came time to buy that Aerostich Transit leather suit that I’ve wanted for years, I couldn’t buy it in yellow. It just looks too cool in black. 

I guess it’s all about risk management. We all ride - everything else we do to minimize risk is just working around the edges.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA
‘46 Rapide
3 Bevel Ducs
‘71 R75/5
‘72 Combat Commando
‘73 v7 Sport
‘78 SR500
‘79 G5-T3 mashup
‘19 Husky Vitpilen


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Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride, Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here