Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: injundave on March 17, 2019, 10:42:15 PM

Title: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on March 17, 2019, 10:42:15 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/Mkw6dSK/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mkw6dSK)

(https://i.ibb.co/3FZHjc5/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3FZHjc5)

(https://i.ibb.co/nM27xB2/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nM27xB2)

(https://i.ibb.co/b77cFdJ/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b77cFdJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/r0JwMFB/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0JwMFB)

(https://i.ibb.co/hXhY60f/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hXhY60f)


Looks like I am now a Lario owner. I saw this on the Book of Faces today. The previous owner's son borrowed it and it lost power so he pulled over. He and a friend then spent half an hour trying to bump start it with the result that one piston and valve is knackered. Not sure about the head. The price was good and I will go to bring it home later in the week. From the owner's memory its a 1989 model.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Muzz on March 18, 2019, 02:07:12 AM
Now whotcha gone and done Dave. :evil:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: malik on March 18, 2019, 02:12:50 AM
Nice one, Dave. Another just right for UnZud's roads. Let us know if you need anything. There's one in bits in the Shed here, and a frame coming to be fitted with all the Breva bits. Martin (jacksonracing) has posted here with segments of his Lario fettling.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on March 18, 2019, 07:01:57 PM
welcome to the dark side
do nothing without pulling cam
my one off to tas again today, new tyre just on
any news re case Mal ? Iím just about convinced top end is proven, should start building the roller tappet one soon
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on April 04, 2019, 04:12:05 PM
An update. This arrived this morning. For it's age, according to the spec plate on the steering head its a 1988 model, its in surprisingly good condition cosmetically. The paint looks as though it needs a cut and polish to bring it right back. As yet I haven't been into the engine. I am going to leave it until my wife has seen it, after all she made me buy it because she thought I needed a project after finishing the V50 for my daughter. I have been reading Chuck's and Jim's posts again regarding refurbishing their Larios and talking to Brian about how to make the top end reliable. Looking forward to some fun!


(https://i.ibb.co/Lr0YZnh/IMG-0526.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lr0YZnh)

(https://i.ibb.co/kGTSsC7/IMG-0527.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGTSsC7)
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: JACoH on April 04, 2019, 05:53:57 PM
What are those things on the mufflers, heat shields?
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 04, 2019, 06:15:37 PM
What are those things on the mufflers, heat shields?

The look stock to me.. cant see too well with this tablet.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Roebling3 on April 04, 2019, 07:21:15 PM
Injun Dave: Do you know the manufacturer of the fairing?  R3~ 
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on April 04, 2019, 09:39:40 PM
What are those things on the mufflers, heat shields?  They are heat shields of some kind. The only thing I can think of that they would protect is saddlebags. They are way too far back to do anything for the pillion's feet.

Injun Dave: Do you know the manufacturer of the fairing?  It looks like it has been there forever. The indicator lenses are factory. I just went and had another closer look at the fairing. Some of the mounting hardware looks a bit home made so, maybe, its not an original fixture.


(https://i.ibb.co/xKZ12WJ/IMG-0540.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xKZ12WJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/9WskxRH/IMG-0539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9WskxRH)

(https://i.ibb.co/jb7z3fQ/IMG-0537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jb7z3fQ)
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on April 05, 2019, 12:21:12 AM
nice Buy, there is some info available on how to make them last a bit longer.
keep us posted with your results..

my daily transport lario ( with close to 100.000 km) is developing a interesting vibration at higher revs,
i think i will be changing a camshaft soon.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on April 05, 2019, 11:55:40 PM
So, this afternoon, a wet and cold one, the first such day this year, well it IS autumn after all) I got out in the shed, put the Lario up on my work bench and started stripping the left side. The tank and side covers came off first and then the valve cover.


(https://i.ibb.co/C5jggkP/IMG-0542.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5jggkP)


Rockers off. Single valve springs! Why did I think they had doubles?


(https://i.ibb.co/N7msf7W/IMG-0543.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N7msf7W)


Head off. Oh dear!!!


(https://i.ibb.co/VjdNWGc/IMG-0544.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VjdNWGc)


Piston off.


(https://i.ibb.co/1XCXkbx/IMG-0545.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1XCXkbx)



(https://i.ibb.co/GQFp4gj/IMG-0546.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQFp4gj)


The head is a real mess.


(https://i.ibb.co/HF44ttR/IMG-0547.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HF44ttR)



(https://i.ibb.co/Q9djD6v/IMG-0548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q9djD6v)

upload images (https://imgbb.com/)


New cylinder required.


(https://i.ibb.co/hZHpjkz/IMG-0549.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZHpjkz)


Not a good picture but there is damage to the cam, specifically the second lobe from the left.


(https://i.ibb.co/71ZkKTD/IMG-0551.jpg) (https://ibb.co/71ZkKTD)


And while I was there I came across this interesting breather arrangement.


(https://i.ibb.co/qjCR844/IMG-0550.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qjCR844)


The top and bottom hoses come from the rocker cover. The middle one goes down to the sump and the two big ones on the rear side vent under the rear fairing. Tomorrow I will remove the oil pan and pull down the right side. I hope all is well in there.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: malik on April 06, 2019, 01:13:31 AM
Seriously nasty. I hope your sump is in better shape than the Nevada's -


(https://i.ibb.co/PDG02jZ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PDG02jZ)


Yes, that's one of the big end bearings in the top left.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 06, 2019, 02:11:40 AM
Dave
talking to Mal the other day, if you decide to put his 2. valve top ends on , and if your rh head is good which almost certainly is
I would like to buy all the lario bits,  both mine did rh side so rh head and piston / barrel exactly what I need for #2
might need to fly over and swap bits but due an unzed visit anyway
pm me if it sounds like a plan
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on April 06, 2019, 08:58:34 AM
Quote

Head off. Oh dear

that is what a dropped exhaust valve looks like.... been there a couple of times.
the head should be salvageable, , will need some welding , machining and new seats.
i wonder if a cylinder from a two valve engine could be modified to fit , i am running out of cylinders.

apparently yours already had all the factory mods done ( wide cams , single valve springs. )
interesting to see it still dropped a valve

i would be curious what valve was fitted, can you check with a magnet if the exhaust valves  are stainless steel?
first bach was two piece steel,
the second type of valves were one piece stainless, with lash caps to stop the rockers hammering into the valves
the latest  valves should be stainless ( so not magnetic) with just the top of the valves magnetic due to the stellite top.

Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: kevdog3019 on April 06, 2019, 11:25:21 AM
For the upper end of these engines you need upper end parts. Lots of weak areas and eventually your weakest link will give.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on April 06, 2019, 11:58:37 PM
Back to the shed this morning. We changed from Daylight Saving Time to NZ Standard Time last night so I have a theoretical extra hour to play with. First things first, I stripped the toasted head.


(https://i.ibb.co/RHMHhzS/IMG-0552.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RHMHhzS)


The valve springs are single but not progressive.


(https://i.ibb.co/wR1kpkT/IMG-0553.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wR1kpkT)


I tested the valves and found them all to be magnetic so indications are that they are the factory two-piece? Then I started on the right side.


(https://i.ibb.co/jbmYSj9/IMG-0554.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jbmYSj9)



(https://i.ibb.co/rdC22jp/IMG-0556.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rdC22jp)




(https://i.ibb.co/VTWs5df/IMG-0558.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VTWs5df)


I can still see the cross-hatching in the cylinder.


(https://i.ibb.co/rcNKhry/IMG-0559.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rcNKhry)


A short while later I had the frame separated from the rest of the bike.


(https://i.ibb.co/cQcWJgR/IMG-0560.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cQcWJgR)
<br

/>(https://i.ibb.co/FJW0C71/IMG-0562.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FJW0C71)



(https://i.ibb.co/Q68BFXm/IMG-0563.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q68BFXm)


Lots more work saw the sump off. This is what we found in the bottom!


(https://i.ibb.co/Yyt1qbG/IMG-0564.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yyt1qbG)


The damage to the cam lobe is more apparent in this photo.


(https://i.ibb.co/j3Dtmgc/IMG-0566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j3Dtmgc)


While I was doing the spanner work my amazing wife was busy with degreaser and a selection of brushes. Here is the result.


(https://i.ibb.co/d2CdJ4c/IMG-0567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d2CdJ4c)


Its almost 5.00pm. Time for food and, more importantly, a hot shower. More tomorrow.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on April 07, 2019, 01:43:24 AM
a broken camchain tensioner, first time i see one of those.
apparently somebody just removed the inner valve springs , in a efford to stop the valves from snapping.
used to be a pretty  common mod
unfortunately he did not  change the valves. 
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: dguzzi on April 07, 2019, 04:49:14 PM
Such a nice looking bike...wonder how a newer engine might fit.  I know its a sacrilege.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 07, 2019, 06:47:56 PM
a broken camchain tensioner, first time i see one of those.
apparently somebody just removed the inner valve springs , in a efford to stop the valves from snapping.
used to be a pretty  common mod
unfortunately he did not  change the valves.
single springs look same as oe on the v75 head I found in France, really odd bit is the +.7 mm preload spacer they also fitted, proper wtf moment
Such a nice looking bike...wonder how a newer engine might fit.  I know its a sacrilege.

cheapest easiest thing to do
not sacrilege if he sells me lario bits to recycle
that should make swap a pretty painless e$perience esp as Mal has one , only Tasman Sea is in the way
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on April 07, 2019, 11:12:46 PM
I have been finding some odd and bizarre things about this bike. The breather system was one, but this one is really weird


(https://i.ibb.co/DbyVnPg/IMG-0569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DbyVnPg)


The clutch actuator arm was extended and the other piece raised the rear anchor point for the outer clutch cable. Not what you might call an elegant solution, but it really begs the question "Why?" When I removed the sheet metal extension I found the original lever beneath, in perfect condition. All I can think of is that there may, sometime in the past, have been s difficulty in obtaining a clutch cable and that this enabled something else to be used.

I have been right inside. The sludge trap was clean and, although showing some small bright inclusions, the main bearings show little sign of wear. I think that the engine went bang and stopped before there was time for anything nasty to get pumped through. The oil pump looks pristine and had no detritus in it. Even the oil filter had no bits in it although the wire screen was covered.

There is no detectable up & down movement in the big ends. The big end bolts are so tight that my 10mm socket, although a good fit, wants to round off the nuts, so I have not yet been able to inspect the bearing shells.

One cam follower has wear on the flat face but all the others appear fine.

The clutch looks great. The gearbox seems to be selecting all the ratios it came with. The drive shaft and UJ are all fine.

I have a lead on a left side cylinder, head and piston and should know by the end of the week if it is all available. I toyed with the idea of using twp-valve V65 bits. In some ways this may be a very good idea but I do like the idea of 4 valves per cylinder. I have never ridden a Lario and would like to try it. We shall see.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 07, 2019, 11:58:55 PM
if you ever come to melbourne welcome to have a go on mine
 but there are many things beyond the myths that need sorting, took me a while before I was happy to button it up and treat it as designer intended.
very surprising 3 tappets still good, basically the whole story is told there, cam, adjuster and valve tip damage all symptoms
both my engines had been welded up and ďrebuiltĒ
both worse than factory original, pins pulled ready to pop
Either way you go check lh rod for straight, one of mine badly twisted ie big end not facing same direction as little end
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Frenchfrog on April 08, 2019, 02:35:56 AM
The clutch arm was probably extended to make the pull lighter dave..hope you can sort the bike out easily.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: stubbie on April 08, 2019, 03:34:39 AM
Is that what they call valve displacement? :thumb:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Muzz on April 08, 2019, 03:01:02 PM
Holy pistons Batman! :wink:  A bit of damage going on in there Dave. :shocked:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: stubbie on April 08, 2019, 07:34:51 PM
Not sure if they are the same heads but Niks Euro Bits has left hand heads for a v65.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 09, 2019, 10:53:35 AM
Not sure if they are the same heads but Niks Euro Bits has left hand heads for a v65.

Nope. 4V heads are beginning to be scarce on the ground.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on February 09, 2021, 08:46:46 PM
It has been almost two years since I last posted here. In that time much has happened with the Lario. I finally got it to run late in 2019 after a major engine rebuild - valves, springs, collars, keepers big-end and main bearings, cam chain and tensioner etc.

It was fitted with a Newtronic electronic ignition system which seemed to work sometimes. I changed the coils, plugs and HT cables, cleaned the carbs numerous times but it never quite ran right. In the meantime I found an original bikini type fairing and a set of unobtanium front indicators so I had a bike that looked right but still did not run well. I tried to ride it to a friend's house about 50km from here. I got half way there when the gearbox siezed solid in third and I had to bring it home on a trailer. The second-hand gearbox I found was NOT cheap!

Late January this year I bought a DynaS ignition system. The advertising blurb says that all electronics are contained under the timing cover, in other words, no black boxes hidden up under the tank. The system consisted of the plate (which replaces the old points), a magnetic rotor , two coils and HT cables, plug caps etc, a short piece of red wire for the power feed to the system and a small bag of hardware (terminals etc).
I had to make some brackets to mount the coils but, that aside, fitting was extremely easy. The plate connects to the coils with only one wire to each, switched power goes to each coil and the previously mentioned piece of red wire is spliced into one of the power feeds to the coils and plugs into a third wire from the plate.

I set the timing at 7 degrees BTDC and pushed the start button. The engine started immediately and settled into an idle at 1000rpm. Throttle response is instantaneous and acceleration is much improved. Even in 4th gear acceleration is surprising.

Tomorrow morning I an taking the bike for a Warrant of Fitness, a mechanical check required by law every 6 months and I will then relicense it for a few months to really try it out. So here it is.


(https://i.ibb.co/hChWPcJ/lario1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hChWPcJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/dD003sB/lario2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dD003sB)

(https://i.ibb.co/5szy1Mm/lario3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5szy1Mm)

(https://i.ibb.co/yQ64Y8M/lario4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yQ64Y8M)
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: SLDMRossi on February 09, 2021, 08:49:38 PM
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/1986-Moto-Guzzi-LARIO-V-65-5015478925

No connection to Seller...

Steven Rossi
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: lucian on February 09, 2021, 09:06:05 PM
Love a happy ending!  Beautiful bike and must be a blast to ride, good luck with the check up. Do they have to put a finger up the tailpipe?
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Scout63 on February 09, 2021, 09:56:38 PM
Bravo InjunDave.  That bike will treat you well.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2021, 06:54:41 AM
Ooh, unobtainium turn signals.. :smiley:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: malik on February 10, 2021, 06:22:07 PM
Well done, Dave. Trust that the shakeout runs go well. You know where the twistie roads are.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 10, 2021, 11:47:13 PM
Well done Dave, sorted they are a wonderful motor, such a shame most got destroyed before they got fixed, but for a few hours work then theyíd be a classic now instead of a pariah.
Give it berries, itíll cry for more,, mineís still making power at 8750, sees 9 safely when corner too close for upchange

But gearbox sounds a bit scary, what happened ?
Small blocks have a rep for whining but donít think Iíve ever heard of a lock up
Intend to give mine a V9 box and rear end sooner or later, maybe sooner if yours was just a worn out part that broke
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on February 11, 2021, 05:59:51 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/VYXGFXD/gearbox2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYXGFXD)

(https://i.ibb.co/Gs0tGLN/gearbox1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gs0tGLN)


From the "One picture is worth a thousand words" file, here are two pictures.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2021, 06:23:13 PM
Uhh, that's *not* going to buff out..
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 12, 2021, 02:23:09 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/VYXGFXD/gearbox2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYXGFXD)

(https://i.ibb.co/Gs0tGLN/gearbox1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gs0tGLN)


From the "One picture is worth a thousand words" file, here are two pictures.

Good shots
No oil ?
Or signs of a PO interfering? Larios get a few amateur ďfixesĒ some are mind boggling, at least the box in mine shows no signs of ever being apart, Iíd hate to see what the man who fixed the engine would have done in there.

Glad youíre ok, mustíve been a memorable moment
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: chuck peterson on February 12, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Som ting Wong...sorry about the transmission

Found some Lario BUB mufflers if anyone interested

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=109263.0


Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 12, 2021, 11:49:56 AM
Pretty amazing gearbox problem, I ran a seriously modified v65  off road for 100.000 miles, the gearbox was the only part that did not at some point need a rebuild was the gearbox.

So really wonder what happened to this one.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on February 12, 2021, 03:14:43 PM
When the box seized I had been travelling a country road at around 60mph. I turned off onto a side road and went to change from 2nd to third when the back wheel locked. Pulling the clutch did nothing and I skidded to a stop. I couldn't get it out of gear and had to drag the bike sideways to get it off the road. Needless to say it went home on a flatbed truck.

When I pulled it apart there was no sign that anybody had been in there before but, with the considerable benefit of hindsight and considering the overall state of the poor thing, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody had been in there. Funny thing is, apart from the obviously damaged bits, the rest of it seems fine.

As it happened my parts supplier, Pete, had a virtually new V65 box available. Lots of dollars later it was fitted. I must say that the new box still whines but nowhere near as much as the old one did.

Having now had a few rides, hopefully with more to come this weekend, I must say that I am beginning to understand why the Lario has a small, but dedicated following. It is very responsive to the throttle and steers well with that lovely Tonti frame stability. The 16 inch wheels are a bit odd after the V50 and T3 but I'm sure I will get used to it. I had hoped to repair and sell it but, after the financial surprise of the gearbox that is not a viable proposition as I would lose too much so I may as well keep it and enjoy it.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: malik on February 12, 2021, 08:21:44 PM
 :thumb:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 13, 2021, 07:21:45 AM
You can check the gear selected spring, if it has one winding it is the original one.
These tend to brake at some point, the upgraded guzzi spring has two windings, and solve the problem.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Tom on February 13, 2021, 06:13:29 PM
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Tom on February 13, 2021, 06:14:22 PM
Som ting Wong...sorry about the transmission

Found some Lario BUB mufflers if anyone interested

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=109263.0

Kwai lo negah see fut. 
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: injundave on February 15, 2021, 01:15:56 PM
So I took it for a ride, about 60 miles, on Saturday afternoon. It was a fine, hot, sunny day, just perfect for a rural ride.

The bike ran sweetly all the way except when, being used to the T3 torque, I forgot to change down on a long uphill stretch. I realised that the engine was overheating and it was too late to change down so pulled over, switched off and sat in the quiet for 10 minutes. It started and ran happily and the journey continued without further trouble.

A visit was made to the Hawke's Bay Classic Motorcycle Club where it attracted some interest and I consumed a small beer. As a special treat to myself, the route home was the twistiest I could find and I arrived home with a big smile.

Just a couple of minor points: The hand grips were loose and kept wanting to come off the ends of the bars, easily fixed with a small dab of glue. The left footrest rubber was the same. The turn signal control, one of those "move in the direction required to turn on and push to turn off" types was not working properly. I half pulled it to bits yesterday and gave it a clean but it's still not right. Perhaps complete disassembly today and further investigation is required.

All in all, pretty happy and looking forward to the next ride. Of course it's raining all day today.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: timmythecop on February 15, 2021, 01:56:04 PM
The as delivered fairing was from mid 90's Buell Thunderbolt.

(https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/s2_thunderbolt.jpg)
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 17, 2021, 01:38:28 AM
I had hoped to repair and sell it but, after the financial surprise of the gearbox that is not a viable proposition as I would lose too much so I may as well keep it and enjoy it.

I offered to offload the engine, Iíd probably have paid more for just the engine than you paid for the bike
Someone would grab all the unique Lario cycle parts in a flash too
Larios with dropped valves are worth a bit to wreck, but whole running ones, no

But properly fixed they are awesome, sadly most Iíve heard of change the coilbound valve springs ( the reason the cam wears out) for some lighter but just as coilbound springs.
Then they get valvebounce and no top end AND a worn cam
And then'...............

You can check the gear selected spring, if it has one winding it is the original one.
These tend to brake at some point, the upgraded guzzi spring has two windings, and solve the problem.

Iím sure Dave would have spotted that
But with BB early 5 speeds return springs breaking was really common
I would always warn people of the risk of riding it and bit of spring getting caught in between gears
But never heard of it actually happening, external bungy cord return spring and ride it till $ or time was normal in the days when bikes were everyday transport.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 17, 2021, 08:02:21 AM
i was commenting on the gearbox spring as a way to investigate if the box had been apart before breaking down.
so we could rule out errors from a previous owner.
all guzzi's i own ( including the nuovo falcone) had that spring break.
i have one in the toolkit of the V7sport :-)

with the right tires the lario's handling is great, i would love a V7-3 engine to fill the gap left by the current 4 valve engine that dropped yet another valve....



Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 17, 2021, 06:26:43 PM
Quote
with the right tires the lario's handling is great, i would love a V7-3 engine to fill the gap left by the current 4 valve engine that dropped yet another valve....
I have that valve dropping problem cured, I think..  :smiley: but tires have been frustrating, to say the least. Last fall, I found some Conti scooter tires the right size,  use the Sport Attack pattern.. and *maybe* the compound. They "seem to be" really good, but I'll have to go somewhere to find out.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 18, 2021, 12:20:39 AM
my lario did 40.000 miles between dropping valves, i was convinced i had the valve train problems solved until it dropped nother valve.
if your conti's are like the pirelli diablo scooter tires on mine i think you will be impressed.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 18, 2021, 01:32:32 AM
my lario did 40.000 miles between dropping valves, i was convinced i had the valve train problems solved until it dropped nother valve.
if your conti's are like the pirelli diablo scooter tires on mine i think you will be impressed.
Yea, mine had 80k km on it after expert fix, bought it from good friend who didnít ride it anymore, took me two weeks to drop valves and I thought I was babying it. Of course , she had never been over 100mk/h on it.
I only ever intended to put late SB in but curiosity got me, I bought Chuckís old motor and very fortunately 1 head in absolutely original spec.
Mine and Chuckís were absurd fixes, attempts at symptoms but no thought for cause.
Jury has to come back in long before you even think of bolting it back together
Itís only an engine, design superb, slight issue with component control.
Fix the cause and there cannot be symptoms
Look at your camshaft for clues, cam and tappet wear tell stories
But if youíve given up and have good right side, pm me, I Ďd like to build a hot one but the std one is so good Iím not going to touch it, it will outlive me
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 18, 2021, 04:08:47 AM
i'm pretty committed to getting it right, the engine is great if it runs well.
I just need to locate parts, and think of some extra modifications.
I already have the upgraded valves , springs, spring retainers and camshaft.

Next on the list are the tappet screws and probably a reground camshaft ( if i can find somebody to do it) ,the lack of quietening ramps on the stock cam might be part of the problem.
i am also looking as a oil jets on the cam
the lack of quietening ramps is less of a problem with the lighter two valve valve train.
i like the idea of having a hot cam anyway , the lario does not run out of breath like the 2 valve engine does, so should benefit from a hot cam.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 18, 2021, 07:41:02 AM
i'm pretty committed to getting it right, the engine is great if it runs well.
I just need to locate parts, and think of some extra modifications.
I already have the upgraded valves , springs, spring retainers and camshaft.

Next on the list are the tappet screws and probably a reground camshaft ( if i can find somebody to do it) ,the lack of quietening ramps on the stock cam might be part of the problem.
i am also looking as a oil jets on the cam
the lack of quietening ramps is less of a problem with the lighter two valve valve train.
i like the idea of having a hot cam anyway , the lario does not run out of breath like the 2 valve engine does, so should benefit from a hot cam.
If I were going to *really* try to build a good one, I'd look hard at Martin's thread on building his. One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 18, 2021, 12:33:59 PM
Quote
One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.[/quo

i was thinking of oil jets aiming at the cam from the side, instead of drilling the cam.
KTM uses oil jets  on its singles
shouldnt be too hard to do, adding a oil gallery on the side of the cam
i'm not on my first lario rebuild, but i have yet to find the silver bullet modification solving the valve issues
i also have a hotrodded 350 engine (550 CC) that is even harder on its valves
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 18, 2021, 09:17:37 PM
Quote
One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.[/quo

i was thinking of oil jets aiming at the cam from the side, instead of drilling the cam.
KTM uses oil jets  on its singles
shouldnt be too hard to do, adding a oil gallery on the side of the cam
i'm not on my first lario rebuild, but i have yet to find the silver bullet modification solving the valve issues
i also have a hotrodded 350 engine (550 CC) that is even harder on its valves

Silver bullet is some simple measuring tools, valve spring pressure gauge was only one I had to buy
Than abc
Assume nothing
Believe no one
Check everything

Itís all the misinformation (fake news?) that creates disaster
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 19, 2021, 04:10:48 AM
Silver bullet is some simple measuring tools, valve spring pressure gauge was only one I had to buy


may be , or may be not , we'll see if you manage 50.000 miles on a hard worked engine.

i have seen engines built by professional tuners using nice kibblewhite and carillo finest parts explode.
The factory paris dakar efford was not very successfull, despite serious funding.  (DNF because of blown engines )
I expect the guzzi factory to have owned a valve spring pressure gauge at some point.

i use a digital scale and a milling machine with DRO instead of a spring gauge. works for me.
 
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: GoLario on February 19, 2021, 11:39:31 AM
Gentlemen,
I am aware this is a change of subject, however the experts appear to be assembled here
I am rebuilding a Lario from a crate with (all) the parts and now I had a good look at the airbox
The airbox has a "sump", before the connections to the carbs branch off
I would expect the drain connection at the lowest point of the "sump"
Actually there are 2 connections, both same dimensions
The one at the lowest point is "not open"
The other one, next to it, slightly higher up, does give access to the sump
Then, halfway the airbox , there are, at the bottom, two more connections
The big one of the two is plugged
I would like to understand this set-up
Can you help?

Thank you very much

Evert Wijnberg




Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on February 19, 2021, 11:42:08 AM
Gentlemen,
I am aware this is a change of subject, however the experts appear to be assembled here
I am rebuilding a Lario from a crate with (all) the parts and now I had a good look at the airbox
The airbox has a "sump", before the connections to the carbs branch off
I would expect the drain connection at the lowest point of the "sump"
Actually there are 2 connections, both same dimensions
The one at the lowest point is "not open"
The other one, next to it, slightly higher up, does give access to the sump
Then, halfway the airbox , there are, at the bottom, two more connections
The big one of the two is plugged
I would like to understand this set-up
Can you help?

Thank you very much

Evert Wijnberg

perhaps this helps?
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-lookup/1980-89-moto-guzzis/v65-lario-650-1984-87/air-filter-en-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18.html (http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-lookup/1980-89-moto-guzzis/v65-lario-650-1984-87/air-filter-en-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18.html)
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: GoLario on February 19, 2021, 01:02:15 PM
Thank you very much for the swift reply
You are right, the exploded view shows where to connect
And maybe I should not make life too complicated in trying to understand the presence of the other studs

Again thanks,

Evert Wijnberg
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 20, 2021, 11:12:03 PM
may be , or may be not , we'll see if you manage 50.000 miles on a hard worked engine.

i have seen engines built by professional tuners using nice kibblewhite and carillo finest parts explode.
The factory paris dakar efford was not very successfull, despite serious funding.  (DNF because of blown engines )
I expect the guzzi factory to have owned a valve spring pressure gauge at some point.

i use a digital scale and a milling machine with DRO instead of a spring gauge. works for me.

Factory engines survived Dakar, one bike burnt, another is still running here, I know the owner
Rods may turn out to be the demise of mine but neither they nor KW valves will have any effect on the issues I measured.
If you measured spring pressure Iím interested what pressure you ran on your latest blow up (when you built it)
At seat and at (measured not guessed) full lift
Clearance to bind at said full lift
Importantly all 8 valves, factory set up was not even on heads Iíve seen, variations in installed height and pressures
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: GoLario on February 21, 2021, 11:27:01 AM
Hello,
I am in the process of re-building a Lario, and like all of you I wanted to find out why these Lario's drop a valve with such high probability
I don't think, throwing in the understanding I have by now, will do any good, as at its best it would give only clues for understanding the high probability of a valve failure, but no practical solution
But if I can help to gather data when the engine is put together and then monitor data over time, when running the engine, I happily will try to support
However, I will need then a clear protocol for testing and establishing these data, what tools I need and how to use them 
I have seen there has been a lot of discussions on measurements, but I do not want to go from there as I do not want to end up with "misunderstandings"
So, as a start I am prepared to offer my Lario as a "testing device", prepared to put in some effort (and cost)

Regards,
Evert Wijnberg
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: huub on February 22, 2021, 07:14:56 AM
Quote
Factory engines survived Dakar, one bike burnt, another is still running here, I know the owner

moto guzzi entered 4 bikes in the 1986 dakar, none of them made it to the finish.
indeed one burned down
that was the end of guzzi's interest in the Dakar...
I tracked down one of the mechanics a couple of years later, when preparing my V65 TT for off road competition.
the term UJ failure was the best they could do to to explain the early DNF without making a fool of themselves. 
but was not the complete story.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Frenchfrog on February 22, 2021, 08:09:39 AM
Far from the complete story on the V65 Baja...As far as I know no official entries were made by Guzzi in the Dakar...the 4 Huub refers to were sponsored by the French importer I think. They then saw that the comp department at mandello were getting the Baja together and asked for some to be made to offer to their clientele in France. I know of at least two of these bikes and apart from big chassis mods the engines are pretty stock 2 valve  v 65's. Some like the Australian one were fitted with 4 valve Lario heads , Another variant was entered and won it's class in the French Super Motard championships for a couple  of years. All these bikes were privately entered . The biggest issue with the TT and NTX Guzzis in small block form is the fragility of the swinging arm and UJ combo which is one reason the BAja 's used a big block swinging arm and rear drive. The story goes a lot further into big block territory as Torri who competed in many long distance enduro races developed several big block racers after using baja's ...sadly he didn't receive much help from Guzzi and didn't have much success either and gave up racing , moved to Ethiopia and remained in obscurity until
 a few years ago.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on February 22, 2021, 09:41:02 AM
Any other Lario owners have the electrics black out at the most inconvenient moment.
I found there's a main molex connector under the tank, the two large pins Positive to the switch and Positive from switch to fuse box in mine were overheating and losing contact.
Eventually after trying to replace the pins I thought, I'm never going to unplug this anyway and crimped it around the connector, no more problems.
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 23, 2021, 12:36:22 AM
moto guzzi entered 4 bikes in the 1986 dakar, none of them made it to the finish.
indeed one burned down
that was the end of guzzi's interest in the Dakar...
I tracked down one of the mechanics a couple of years later, when preparing my V65 TT for off road competition.
the term UJ failure was the best they could do to to explain the early DNF without making a fool of themselves. 
but was not the complete story.
You might want to read this
http://www.guzzi.com.au/baja/index.shtml
Phil knows all, He just told me more interesting stuff but canít remember detail so wonít try quoting.
His 8 valve has never been apart as far as he knows, revs to 9 like mine does,
Must be others in the world whoíve got them going right, a few racers who got a lot more
Mine is inherently std, valves, rods, pistons, carbs etc etc


Any other Lario owners have the electrics black out at the most inconvenient moment.
I found there's a main molex connector under the tank, the two large pins Positive to the switch and Positive from switch to fuse box in mine were overheating and losing contact.
Eventually after trying to replace the pins I thought, I'm never going to unplug this anyway and crimped it around the connector, no more problems.
Rewired of course, Roy, no one runs std Guzzi 60ís, 70ís or 80ís wiring do they ?
Title: Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 24, 2021, 08:31:44 AM
Any other Lario owners have the electrics black out at the most inconvenient moment.
I found there's a main molex connector under the tank, the two large pins Positive to the switch and Positive from switch to fuse box in mine were overheating and losing contact.
Eventually after trying to replace the pins I thought, I'm never going to unplug this anyway and crimped it around the connector, no more problems.

thanks, KR.. saved in my Lario stuff file. I'll give it a look when I get a round toit.