Author Topic: Uh-Oh, Lario  (Read 3347 times)

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2021, 06:54:41 AM »
Ooh, unobtainium turn signals.. :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline malik

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2021, 06:22:07 PM »
Well done, Dave. Trust that the shakeout runs go well. You know where the twistie roads are.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2021, 11:47:13 PM »
Well done Dave, sorted they are a wonderful motor, such a shame most got destroyed before they got fixed, but for a few hours work then theyíd be a classic now instead of a pariah.
Give it berries, itíll cry for more,, mineís still making power at 8750, sees 9 safely when corner too close for upchange

But gearbox sounds a bit scary, what happened ?
Small blocks have a rep for whining but donít think Iíve ever heard of a lock up
Intend to give mine a V9 box and rear end sooner or later, maybe sooner if yours was just a worn out part that broke

Offline injundave

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2021, 05:59:51 PM »






From the "One picture is worth a thousand words" file, here are two pictures.
1975 850 T3
1980 V50
1988 V65 Lario

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2021, 05:59:51 PM »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2021, 06:23:13 PM »
Uhh, that's *not* going to buff out..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2021, 02:23:09 AM »






From the "One picture is worth a thousand words" file, here are two pictures.

Good shots
No oil ?
Or signs of a PO interfering? Larios get a few amateur ďfixesĒ some are mind boggling, at least the box in mine shows no signs of ever being apart, Iíd hate to see what the man who fixed the engine would have done in there.

Glad youíre ok, mustíve been a memorable moment

Online chuck peterson

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2021, 11:19:18 AM »
Som ting Wong...sorry about the transmission

Found some Lario BUB mufflers if anyone interested

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=109263.0


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Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2021, 11:49:56 AM »
Pretty amazing gearbox problem, I ran a seriously modified v65  off road for 100.000 miles, the gearbox was the only part that did not at some point need a rebuild was the gearbox.

So really wonder what happened to this one.

Offline injundave

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2021, 03:14:43 PM »
When the box seized I had been travelling a country road at around 60mph. I turned off onto a side road and went to change from 2nd to third when the back wheel locked. Pulling the clutch did nothing and I skidded to a stop. I couldn't get it out of gear and had to drag the bike sideways to get it off the road. Needless to say it went home on a flatbed truck.

When I pulled it apart there was no sign that anybody had been in there before but, with the considerable benefit of hindsight and considering the overall state of the poor thing, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody had been in there. Funny thing is, apart from the obviously damaged bits, the rest of it seems fine.

As it happened my parts supplier, Pete, had a virtually new V65 box available. Lots of dollars later it was fitted. I must say that the new box still whines but nowhere near as much as the old one did.

Having now had a few rides, hopefully with more to come this weekend, I must say that I am beginning to understand why the Lario has a small, but dedicated following. It is very responsive to the throttle and steers well with that lovely Tonti frame stability. The 16 inch wheels are a bit odd after the V50 and T3 but I'm sure I will get used to it. I had hoped to repair and sell it but, after the financial surprise of the gearbox that is not a viable proposition as I would lose too much so I may as well keep it and enjoy it.
1975 850 T3
1980 V50
1988 V65 Lario

Offline malik

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2021, 08:21:44 PM »
 :thumb:
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
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Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2021, 07:21:45 AM »
You can check the gear selected spring, if it has one winding it is the original one.
These tend to brake at some point, the upgraded guzzi spring has two windings, and solve the problem.

Online Tom

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2021, 06:13:29 PM »
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Online Tom

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2021, 06:14:22 PM »
Som ting Wong...sorry about the transmission

Found some Lario BUB mufflers if anyone interested

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=109263.0

Kwai lo negah see fut. 
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline injundave

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2021, 01:15:56 PM »
So I took it for a ride, about 60 miles, on Saturday afternoon. It was a fine, hot, sunny day, just perfect for a rural ride.

The bike ran sweetly all the way except when, being used to the T3 torque, I forgot to change down on a long uphill stretch. I realised that the engine was overheating and it was too late to change down so pulled over, switched off and sat in the quiet for 10 minutes. It started and ran happily and the journey continued without further trouble.

A visit was made to the Hawke's Bay Classic Motorcycle Club where it attracted some interest and I consumed a small beer. As a special treat to myself, the route home was the twistiest I could find and I arrived home with a big smile.

Just a couple of minor points: The hand grips were loose and kept wanting to come off the ends of the bars, easily fixed with a small dab of glue. The left footrest rubber was the same. The turn signal control, one of those "move in the direction required to turn on and push to turn off" types was not working properly. I half pulled it to bits yesterday and gave it a clean but it's still not right. Perhaps complete disassembly today and further investigation is required.

All in all, pretty happy and looking forward to the next ride. Of course it's raining all day today.
1975 850 T3
1980 V50
1988 V65 Lario

Online timmythecop

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2021, 01:56:04 PM »
The as delivered fairing was from mid 90's Buell Thunderbolt.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 02:00:10 PM by timmythecop »
1980 1000SP
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2021, 01:38:28 AM »
I had hoped to repair and sell it but, after the financial surprise of the gearbox that is not a viable proposition as I would lose too much so I may as well keep it and enjoy it.

I offered to offload the engine, Iíd probably have paid more for just the engine than you paid for the bike
Someone would grab all the unique Lario cycle parts in a flash too
Larios with dropped valves are worth a bit to wreck, but whole running ones, no

But properly fixed they are awesome, sadly most Iíve heard of change the coilbound valve springs ( the reason the cam wears out) for some lighter but just as coilbound springs.
Then they get valvebounce and no top end AND a worn cam
And then'...............

You can check the gear selected spring, if it has one winding it is the original one.
These tend to brake at some point, the upgraded guzzi spring has two windings, and solve the problem.

Iím sure Dave would have spotted that
But with BB early 5 speeds return springs breaking was really common
I would always warn people of the risk of riding it and bit of spring getting caught in between gears
But never heard of it actually happening, external bungy cord return spring and ride it till $ or time was normal in the days when bikes were everyday transport.

Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2021, 08:02:21 AM »
i was commenting on the gearbox spring as a way to investigate if the box had been apart before breaking down.
so we could rule out errors from a previous owner.
all guzzi's i own ( including the nuovo falcone) had that spring break.
i have one in the toolkit of the V7sport :-)

with the right tires the lario's handling is great, i would love a V7-3 engine to fill the gap left by the current 4 valve engine that dropped yet another valve....




Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2021, 06:26:43 PM »
Quote
with the right tires the lario's handling is great, i would love a V7-3 engine to fill the gap left by the current 4 valve engine that dropped yet another valve....
I have that valve dropping problem cured, I think..  :smiley: but tires have been frustrating, to say the least. Last fall, I found some Conti scooter tires the right size,  use the Sport Attack pattern.. and *maybe* the compound. They "seem to be" really good, but I'll have to go somewhere to find out.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2021, 12:20:39 AM »
my lario did 40.000 miles between dropping valves, i was convinced i had the valve train problems solved until it dropped nother valve.
if your conti's are like the pirelli diablo scooter tires on mine i think you will be impressed.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2021, 01:32:32 AM »
my lario did 40.000 miles between dropping valves, i was convinced i had the valve train problems solved until it dropped nother valve.
if your conti's are like the pirelli diablo scooter tires on mine i think you will be impressed.
Yea, mine had 80k km on it after expert fix, bought it from good friend who didnít ride it anymore, took me two weeks to drop valves and I thought I was babying it. Of course , she had never been over 100mk/h on it.
I only ever intended to put late SB in but curiosity got me, I bought Chuckís old motor and very fortunately 1 head in absolutely original spec.
Mine and Chuckís were absurd fixes, attempts at symptoms but no thought for cause.
Jury has to come back in long before you even think of bolting it back together
Itís only an engine, design superb, slight issue with component control.
Fix the cause and there cannot be symptoms
Look at your camshaft for clues, cam and tappet wear tell stories
But if youíve given up and have good right side, pm me, I Ďd like to build a hot one but the std one is so good Iím not going to touch it, it will outlive me

Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2021, 04:08:47 AM »
i'm pretty committed to getting it right, the engine is great if it runs well.
I just need to locate parts, and think of some extra modifications.
I already have the upgraded valves , springs, spring retainers and camshaft.

Next on the list are the tappet screws and probably a reground camshaft ( if i can find somebody to do it) ,the lack of quietening ramps on the stock cam might be part of the problem.
i am also looking as a oil jets on the cam
the lack of quietening ramps is less of a problem with the lighter two valve valve train.
i like the idea of having a hot cam anyway , the lario does not run out of breath like the 2 valve engine does, so should benefit from a hot cam.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2021, 07:41:02 AM »
i'm pretty committed to getting it right, the engine is great if it runs well.
I just need to locate parts, and think of some extra modifications.
I already have the upgraded valves , springs, spring retainers and camshaft.

Next on the list are the tappet screws and probably a reground camshaft ( if i can find somebody to do it) ,the lack of quietening ramps on the stock cam might be part of the problem.
i am also looking as a oil jets on the cam
the lack of quietening ramps is less of a problem with the lighter two valve valve train.
i like the idea of having a hot cam anyway , the lario does not run out of breath like the 2 valve engine does, so should benefit from a hot cam.
If I were going to *really* try to build a good one, I'd look hard at Martin's thread on building his. One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2021, 12:33:59 PM »
Quote
One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.[/quo

i was thinking of oil jets aiming at the cam from the side, instead of drilling the cam.
KTM uses oil jets  on its singles
shouldnt be too hard to do, adding a oil gallery on the side of the cam
i'm not on my first lario rebuild, but i have yet to find the silver bullet modification solving the valve issues
i also have a hotrodded 350 engine (550 CC) that is even harder on its valves

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2021, 09:17:37 PM »
Quote
One of the aftermarket cam manufacturers (I've forgotten the name.. I'm old) did the oil jet thing, but that wasn't the answer, either.[/quo

i was thinking of oil jets aiming at the cam from the side, instead of drilling the cam.
KTM uses oil jets  on its singles
shouldnt be too hard to do, adding a oil gallery on the side of the cam
i'm not on my first lario rebuild, but i have yet to find the silver bullet modification solving the valve issues
i also have a hotrodded 350 engine (550 CC) that is even harder on its valves

Silver bullet is some simple measuring tools, valve spring pressure gauge was only one I had to buy
Than abc
Assume nothing
Believe no one
Check everything

Itís all the misinformation (fake news?) that creates disaster

Online huub

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2021, 04:10:48 AM »
Silver bullet is some simple measuring tools, valve spring pressure gauge was only one I had to buy


may be , or may be not , we'll see if you manage 50.000 miles on a hard worked engine.

i have seen engines built by professional tuners using nice kibblewhite and carillo finest parts explode.
The factory paris dakar efford was not very successfull, despite serious funding.  (DNF because of blown engines )
I expect the guzzi factory to have owned a valve spring pressure gauge at some point.

i use a digital scale and a milling machine with DRO instead of a spring gauge. works for me.
 

Offline GoLario

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2021, 11:39:31 AM »
Gentlemen,
I am aware this is a change of subject, however the experts appear to be assembled here
I am rebuilding a Lario from a crate with (all) the parts and now I had a good look at the airbox
The airbox has a "sump", before the connections to the carbs branch off
I would expect the drain connection at the lowest point of the "sump"
Actually there are 2 connections, both same dimensions
The one at the lowest point is "not open"
The other one, next to it, slightly higher up, does give access to the sump
Then, halfway the airbox , there are, at the bottom, two more connections
The big one of the two is plugged
I would like to understand this set-up
Can you help?

Thank you very much

Evert Wijnberg





Offline Mayor_of_BBQ

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2021, 11:42:08 AM »
Gentlemen,
I am aware this is a change of subject, however the experts appear to be assembled here
I am rebuilding a Lario from a crate with (all) the parts and now I had a good look at the airbox
The airbox has a "sump", before the connections to the carbs branch off
I would expect the drain connection at the lowest point of the "sump"
Actually there are 2 connections, both same dimensions
The one at the lowest point is "not open"
The other one, next to it, slightly higher up, does give access to the sump
Then, halfway the airbox , there are, at the bottom, two more connections
The big one of the two is plugged
I would like to understand this set-up
Can you help?

Thank you very much

Evert Wijnberg

perhaps this helps?
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-lookup/1980-89-moto-guzzis/v65-lario-650-1984-87/air-filter-en-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18.html
Chad (Shadrach) in Asheville NC
1970 Ambo  (full resto)
1973 Ambo (parts bike)
1976 Robin (dirt road runner)
1984 V65 Cafe Racer (ongoing project)
2007 Breva 1100 (Sport 1200 tribute)

Offline GoLario

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2021, 01:02:15 PM »
Thank you very much for the swift reply
You are right, the exploded view shows where to connect
And maybe I should not make life too complicated in trying to understand the presence of the other studs

Again thanks,

Evert Wijnberg

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2021, 11:12:03 PM »
may be , or may be not , we'll see if you manage 50.000 miles on a hard worked engine.

i have seen engines built by professional tuners using nice kibblewhite and carillo finest parts explode.
The factory paris dakar efford was not very successfull, despite serious funding.  (DNF because of blown engines )
I expect the guzzi factory to have owned a valve spring pressure gauge at some point.

i use a digital scale and a milling machine with DRO instead of a spring gauge. works for me.

Factory engines survived Dakar, one bike burnt, another is still running here, I know the owner
Rods may turn out to be the demise of mine but neither they nor KW valves will have any effect on the issues I measured.
If you measured spring pressure Iím interested what pressure you ran on your latest blow up (when you built it)
At seat and at (measured not guessed) full lift
Clearance to bind at said full lift
Importantly all 8 valves, factory set up was not even on heads Iíve seen, variations in installed height and pressures

Offline GoLario

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Re: Uh-Oh, Lario
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2021, 11:27:01 AM »
Hello,
I am in the process of re-building a Lario, and like all of you I wanted to find out why these Lario's drop a valve with such high probability
I don't think, throwing in the understanding I have by now, will do any good, as at its best it would give only clues for understanding the high probability of a valve failure, but no practical solution
But if I can help to gather data when the engine is put together and then monitor data over time, when running the engine, I happily will try to support
However, I will need then a clear protocol for testing and establishing these data, what tools I need and how to use them 
I have seen there has been a lot of discussions on measurements, but I do not want to go from there as I do not want to end up with "misunderstandings"
So, as a start I am prepared to offer my Lario as a "testing device", prepared to put in some effort (and cost)

Regards,
Evert Wijnberg

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