Author Topic: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners  (Read 554088 times)

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #330 on: January 07, 2015, 12:13:06 PM »
I have been experimenting with using a wideband sensor to dial in the wanted AFR to the 5AM. There's a couple of issues.

1. The 5AM expects a narrowband Rich/Stoic/Lean signal only. You must program an analog output to emulate a narrowband signal, but you can still choose your target AFR as your 'Stoic' point.

2. You can't use an LC-2. The LC-2 has a single ended output. A differential output is required or you get a SERVICE error. :D.  Fortunately this is a good thing, because it completely eliminates the offset voltage noise problem.


 With my lc1 it works. Is the LC2 different in the connection? Just one wire connected. 
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #331 on: January 07, 2015, 03:21:28 PM »
With my lc1 it works. Is the LC2 different in the connection? Just one wire connected. 

Interesting. No, they have the same wiring. Ill have another try soon, but at the moment my LC-2 is attached to a 1200 Sport with a roller top end.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #332 on: January 29, 2015, 08:32:04 AM »
Hi everyone!!
I've recently joined to the happy owners of the MG.
Since my 2011 Stelvio 4V (single lambda) is a second hand bike I've started from disassemble everything (which needs cleaning or repair) and make it work as new.
I also have a BMW F650CS with Power Commander with wideband lambda. Tuning was a really success.
So I've decided to give it a try with Stelvio. I already order necessary equipment.
While I will be waiting for the stuff i decided to check TunerPro but I don't have any bin file for a test.
Could anyone send me some modified maps?
wacholek84@gmail.com

I would like to compare them with the original one from my bike but i have to wait for the cables.
Best regards,
Chris



Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #333 on: January 30, 2015, 06:06:10 AM »
Interesting. No, they have the same wiring. Ill have another try soon, but at the moment my LC-2 is attached to a 1200 Sport with a roller top end.

I checked, I have a wire on pin one of the lambda plug on the bike. I use the pin 4 + 12v to power the bluetooth adapter, so it goes on with the bike and can stay in the tooltray
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #333 on: January 30, 2015, 06:06:10 AM »

Offline Californhihay

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #334 on: January 31, 2015, 05:39:50 AM »
I do not know if this is in the right topic to post this, but i did download the maps with the guzzi-diag, I am new to tweaking the maps and have only downloaded the map from the ECU to try to cure a hot weather  pinking that sounds like it is just coming from the left cylinder. only under hard acceleration. 
I have loaded my bin file from my 2009 california and the XDF from the guzzi diag site. I was expecting to see one set of maps but have V11 & V7 in the file???


if i look at the V11 maps, they have dips at 3000 RPM for ignition and fuel. but the that is for the 15M & I have the 15RC in the vintage.



another question is should the .bin file be only 64Kb, even if it is simple binary file it took 15 minutes to download from the bike ECU.

I am not uploding my map hacking until i have learnt more, it is snowing outside so i have plenty of time until it comes to summer and the pinking comes back.

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #335 on: January 31, 2015, 12:27:08 PM »
64kb is the correct size for your map IIRC. The maps for the 5AM are 320kb and they also take 15 minutes. It is what it is.

The multiple tables for the V11 and V7 are simply allow one xdf for multiple bikes to use the 15x ECU, so there are different tables within the xdf for Tunerpro to interpret the bin.

Each map within the bin file may have different offsets and values, so ignore the maps under the V7 section.

Furthermore, the 'dips' may well be common to V11 maps with the same spec, regardless of whether it's a 15M or 15RC.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #336 on: January 31, 2015, 02:30:26 PM »
I have my stock map from Stelvio. 2229STA42Z from 2011.03.03.
It is practically identical to the 2229STVAD42 2009 NTX. Only difference is that I have Conti ABS (1547).

Question 1: When I first started the bike the temperature of the engine was 0C (32F) so according to the Idle RPM table I should have 1400rpm. This value was also displayed in GuzziDiag under calculated RPM. But my Idle RPM was 1120-1180. When engine reached 60C (140F) idle was settled at 1200RPM. At 100C (212F) - 1225-1250. According to the workshop manual idle speed is 1100 +- 100 RPM. I have no fault codes stored.
My Stelvio fires up like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQifE1Q5nc8
Is it possible to tune the map that my Stelvio would fire up like 8V (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ML9WgHuAKA)?
If 1400 rpm when cold can't be achieved why such high values are stored in the ECU?

Question 2: Lambda 1 reading where always around 190mV during my test. I rev the engine up to 5000rpm and live it there for about 15s but nothing has changed. I understand that Lambda sensor is faraway from the cylinders but isn't it suppose to switch between 100mV nad 1V?

Question 3: My TPS was set at 4,6-4,5. According to the workshop manual it should be set on 4.7+-0.2. TPS reset haven't changed the value.

Question 4: Is it normal to have noticeable popping on engine breaking? Stock exhaust. Test on central stand. Rev it up to 6000 rpm and close the throttle. Popping can be heard from the exhaust.

Chris

« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 03:11:32 PM by Wacholek »

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #337 on: January 31, 2015, 03:48:56 PM »
q1: the ecu tries to reach the calculated value. It uses the stepper operated valve and I think ignition timing for that.  Just watch guzzidiag when it is idle what values change.  If circumstances are so that it can;t reach the number like 1400 rpm, so be it.  How long ago were throttle bodies cleaned?  The mechanical condition should be 100% first.
If you think it's running to low with cold start only, you can change the warm up map. I did that and now I can start and drive away just like it was warm.
well here is my startup from cold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55XQWkQeou4&list=UUZduDZdP8LPoXnPtIXfR7aA
I'm happy like this.

q2
The lambda is a smallband device and not very usefull in making the bike run better. I and a lot more have disabled the thing in the map. And the bike will run better. After some more map changing it will even run much better anyway.

q3
when it's 4.5 it is in the 0.2 range?
Further my understanding is that the lowest value in the fuel map is the value it gets after tps reset. Anyway the ecu sets the value at reset, nothing that can be done by guzzidiag, it just sends the command reset tps to the ecu.
The values in the workshop manual are not 100% correct when talking about the injection, the map is leading here. and idle of 1100 rpm is long ago I've seen a modern guzzi do that.
q4
Some people think it is a lot where others don't think it is when you give them the same bike. But yes they all do it a bit. Also depending on the map. And having an open silencer will make it worse.
What also can make it worse if some connection in the exhaust system are not airtight, be it gaskets or other things.

I have my stock map from Stelvio. 2229STA42Z from 2011.03.03.
It is practically identical to the 2229STVAD42 2009 NTX. Only difference is that I have Conti ABS (1547).

Question 1: When I first started the bike the temperature of the engine was 0C (32F) so according to the Idle RPM table I should have 1400rpm. This value was also displayed in GuzziDiag under calculated RPM. But my Idle RPM was 1120-1180. When engine reached 60C (140F) idle was settled at 1200RPM. At 100C (212F) - 1225-1250. According to the workshop manual idle speed is 1100 +- 100 RPM. I have no fault codes stored.
My Stelvio fires up like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQifE1Q5nc8
Is it possible to tune the map that my Stelvio would fire up like 8V (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ML9WgHuAKA)?
If 1400 rpm when cold can't be achieved why such high values are stored in the ECU?

Question 2: Lambda 1 reading where always around 190mV during my test. I rev the engine up to 5000rpm and live it there for about 15s but nothing has changed. I understand that Lambda sensor is faraway from the cylinders but isn't it suppose to switch between 100mV nad 1V?

Question 3: My TPS was set at 4,6-4,5. According to the workshop manual it should be set on 4.7+-0.2. TPS reset haven't changed the value.

Question 4: Is it normal to have noticeable popping on engine breaking? Stock exhaust. Test on central stand. Rev it up to 6000 rpm and close the throttle. Popping can be heard from the exhaust.

Chris


Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #338 on: January 31, 2015, 04:20:47 PM »
I must say that You have very nice cold start. But You have a 8V. I've noticed that the 8V stelvio has a much better start up than the 4V.
I think also that my worm up table is ok. Engine very reach. Although, idle has never gone above 1250rpm.
I haven't cleaned throttle bodies yet but I've done the balancing check. Perfect match. Bike has 22k km (13660 miles). TPS before reset was 4.6.
I was thinking that maybe something wrong with the stepper motor or clogged pips. I will check those.
About the popping i was just curious. On my F650CS ther is no popping on the stock exhaust.
I'm thinking of removing fuel totally from fuel table when the throttle is close and revs above 2000 rpm. Will see how it will behave then.

Do you have maybe some Stelvio maps from Your own bike to compare? 4V vs 8V.

Is it a good idea to buy innovate LC-2 kit and tune the map for AFR 14.0 across entire map? I've done it on my F650CS with PowerCommander. Huge difference.

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #339 on: January 31, 2015, 04:32:20 PM »
my bike is 2008 first model, now with roller cams. I added fuel in the first seconds, that is left side warm up table.

I have a number of innovate devices. They can help also in understanding what happens.

the thing with removing fuel from table has been tried before, I documented it here too. And it helps.

And yes I have maps, a lot :-)

compare your values with these. For changing, the current engine temp is where to look and change.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #340 on: January 31, 2015, 05:22:18 PM »
I must say that You have very nice cold start. But You have a 8V. I've noticed that the 8V stelvio has a much better start up than the 4V


Not sure what your mean here. There are no 4 valve Stelvio's. They all have the 8V motor.

The single lambda Stelvio was referred to as the '4V', and they dropped that when they released the 2 lambda models.

Quote
Is it a good idea to buy innovate LC-2 kit and tune the map for AFR 14.0 across entire map? I've done it on my F650CS with PowerCommander. Huge difference.


For best running with a stock exhaust, I recommend a target AFR of 13.5



Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #341 on: January 31, 2015, 05:31:38 PM »
marketing made 8v stelvios :-)
The same they did with the gt8v norge and 1200 sport 8v and griso 8v. 
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #342 on: January 31, 2015, 06:00:47 PM »
Tee hee! :D

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #343 on: February 01, 2015, 03:01:28 AM »
marketing made 8v stelvios :-)
The same they did with the gt8v norge and 1200 sport 8v and griso 8v. 

Exactly.
But since the put two Lambdas in 8V the engine started to behave differently.
When you're engine is wormed, when you starting it, at the first you will have a jump of revs up to the 2000 rpm and then i should settle at around 1200rpm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ML9WgHuAKA

But mine and i think rest of the pre two lambda versions will slowly climb to 1200 rpm for a few seconds after the start and never reach 1400rpm when cold. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQifE1Q5nc8

That is mine, stock, worm up table. I will change it.


How about the fuel table? Did you manage to minimize the dip in the torque characteristics? 


Offline Californhihay

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #344 on: February 01, 2015, 03:21:40 AM »
thanks beetle, so i edit the V11's called15M maps even though I have the 15RC in the vintage.
Has any one edited a California vintage map to help with the slight hot detonation that I can compare to mine. other than that it is running good. ???
 or perhaps if the dips in the maps are not the cause, i should be altering another value as the detonation sounds like just the left cylinder.
i have checked every mechanical part is seated and tight.

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #345 on: February 01, 2015, 04:31:18 AM »
thanks beetle, so i edit the V11's called15M maps even though I have the 15RC in the vintage.
Has any one edited a California vintage map to help with the slight hot detonation that I can compare to mine. other than that it is running good. ???
 or perhaps if the dips in the maps are not the cause, i should be altering another value as the detonation sounds like just the left cylinder.
i have checked every mechanical part is seated and tight.

Is it detonation when accelerating? You are in the usa with the bad gas you have there?  I know a member here  lazlokovacs has been busy with that with a vintage. Send him a pm if he has a map for you
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #346 on: February 01, 2015, 03:28:24 PM »
thanks beetle, so i edit the V11's called15M maps even though I have the 15RC in the vintage.

Yes.

Quote
or perhaps if the dips in the maps are not the cause, i should be altering another value as the detonation sounds like just the left cylinder.


The dips are there due to the volumetric efficiency of the engine at those RPM/TPS breakpoints. I wouldn't try to tweak them without knowing what is going on when you get detonation. If you are only getting it during hard acceleration, you may try adding some fuel to table 05 (ACCEL ENRICH). Take note of the RPM and (if possible) the throttle position. You can then get the TPS breakpoints from GuzziDiag by holding the throttle in the same position (without engine running of course). Don't go crazy and only increase in small amounts and then test ride until the pinging stops.


Offline Californhihay

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #347 on: February 03, 2015, 12:20:35 PM »
Is it detonation when accelerating? You are in the usa with the bad gas you have there?  I know a member here  lazlokovacs has been busy with that with a vintage. Send him a pm if he has a map for you

I am in the UK, it is only on hot days under load. I will PM him - thanks.

Offline Californhihay

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2015, 12:29:50 PM »
Yes.


The dips are there due to the volumetric efficiency of the engine at those RPM/TPS breakpoints. I wouldn't try to tweak them without knowing what is going on when you get detonation. If you are only getting it during hard acceleration, you may try adding some fuel to table 05 (ACCEL ENRICH). Take note of the RPM and (if possible) the throttle position. You can then get the TPS breakpoints from GuzziDiag by holding the throttle in the same position (without engine running of course). Don't go crazy and only increase in small amounts and then test ride until the pinging stops.



I could see that it could need to initially have a higher value in a map to get some velocity built up then dip to a smooth rise in value. but the 02-offset map is like the alps.


 I will not be tweaking and uploading just yet, I have just got the hang of downloading and editing the maps. I will try to figure TPS brake point (starting by reading the beginning of this post for the 10th time), I will have a long wait to test ride hot as it is still snowing here, I would like to be ready to make the edits. (thanks)  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 12:44:35 PM by Californhihay »

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #349 on: February 03, 2015, 03:08:16 PM »
Don't get caught up in what the map looks like in 3D. Trying to smooth things out is a recipe for disaster.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #350 on: February 09, 2015, 10:48:08 AM »

compare your values with these. For changing, the current engine temp is where to look and change.


I've changed my worm-up map and i finally getting 1400rpm.   

I have one more question.   In section Ators there is a engine on stepper motor option ? What does it do?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #351 on: February 09, 2015, 12:58:59 PM »
I've changed my worm-up map and i finally getting 1400rpm.   

I have one more question.   In section Ators there is a engine on stepper motor option ? What does it do?

stepper motor does open the stepper valve when you use that. But only with idle running engine. I never tried.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Brevadon

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #352 on: February 13, 2015, 04:50:33 PM »
Hi all,
I'm starting to get back to using GuzziDiag on my Breva750 having lost out a years riding due to an injury. Weather is still raw here but i would like to begin sorting a problem I had with the bike.
The bike is dead standard with only 12K miles and well serviced. It starts well and runs very smoothly up to 2750rpm. Then it goes very lumpy up the rest of the range. I was interested to read the comments on plugs and caps earlier in the thread. I had new NGKs fitted. Do leads give problems? Are there better replacements?

Does anyone have a really good map for the 750 Breva (15rc) that has been found to work well? I've already loaded one I got from Paul ( with Lambda off) but it did not really improve things any.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #353 on: February 15, 2015, 03:58:10 PM »
If I where you, I would start from the stock map. Bike have to run good before you change to the new map.

I've had something like that in my BMW.
Please do check the HV cables. It can be similar problem like with the spark plug caps.
In my BMW I've had problems with the fuel filter. So you can also check fuel pressure and injector cleanness.
Don't forget to check also air filter. I've seen one with mold on it after the winter.

Can you easy rev it above 2750rmp while standing still? Do You feel lack of power below 2750rpm?

One more check. Run on third and accelerating decently up from 2000 to 2300 than open throttle one max. If you start to filling less acceleration than before it mens fueling problem. If not or more power than maybe spark plugs/caps/HV cables. What color are your spark plugs?
Best regards,
Chris

Brevadon

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #354 on: February 16, 2015, 05:29:19 PM »
Hi Wacholek,
Thanks for the suggestions. First, this problem goes back before the winter. Last Spring I had a new airfilter fitted, tappets done, timing checked etc.
Plug colour is near perfect. The bike runs and accelerates very smoothly up to 2750rpm. No trouble getting it to rev to max while static.
You asked about acceleration on the move. It will accelerate briskly to 2750rpm. No problem going on up past 2750rpm, maybe not as energetically as in the lower revs.

The main complaint is this lumpiness that comes in at that point coupled with a fair bit of vibration. The closest I can describe it is that it feels like it is firing too early before TDC and almost firing against the piston rather than with it. I don't get any pre-ignition noise or pinging.  I don't know if that description makes any sense. It does leave the bike unpleasant to ride because the vibes and lumpiness come into it in the normal cruising range in top.

The plugs are new NGKs and as I said the milage is low. The leads and caps will be the first checks to eliminate them as a problem. Hail showers have not encouraged any testing here just now!

Any leads on checking fuel pressure and injectors?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #355 on: February 17, 2015, 05:18:40 AM »
Could be a coil too. TPS value is ok at idle? You see the tps goto >80 degree when opening the trottle max.?
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Brevadon

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #356 on: February 17, 2015, 03:06:23 PM »
Thanks Paul. Tps was ok last time I checked. I didnt check it full open.
I'm going to do a full Spring service , then go through all the checks suggested.
If I'm still beaten at that stage at least a lot of "suspects" will have been eliminated.

John

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #357 on: February 22, 2015, 03:19:37 PM »
Hi,
I have one more question.
This is a log file from ScanM5X which I've made today.
Look at the TPS value. They are jumping around at idle.
RPM      TPS   Air Temp Eng Temp
1210   4.6   13   94
1230   4.7   13   94
1200   4.8   13   94
1220   4.6   13   94
1200   4.8   13   94
1200   4.6   13   94
1190   4.6   13   94

Generally TPS is bouncing between 4.5-4.9. I've noticed also that i have a free play of throttle inside the throttle body. When I move it on a side my TPS readings are changing.
Is that normal?

 

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #358 on: February 22, 2015, 03:23:56 PM »
Yes.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #359 on: February 22, 2015, 03:40:29 PM »
I've just not used to that. There is nothing like this in my BMW.
Nevertheless bike is running smooth.

But I still have a problem with my Lambda sensor. As You can see I have constant voltage of 0.2V. The same is in GuzziDiag.
After a 10km ride my engine reach constant temp of 117°C and even once during this ride Lambda haven't turned on.
I've checked my map and it is a stock map. Both my lambdas are on.
No DTC. Everything is working like it should.
????

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