Fuel maps matter!

[rbond]

Do you know if there is a new map out or one is needed for V7C (2012)? Thanks!

[Vasco DG]

Unless your bike has un-muffled pipes on it it should run quite acceptably if it's tuned right. Pretty sure there have been no mapping updates for the twin TB Smallblocks in the last few years.

Pete

[nikwax]

MLR, just waitng to hear back from nikwax re latest Norge map. I suspec I may need tweak both it and the new Stelvio map for a better cold start.

erm, yeah, sorry, it's been pissing rain and hail here so I've not done the remap yet. Hmm, maybe I'll take the work laptop home tonight and install it.

[lucky phil]

Fuel maps matter!

Didnt realise anyone in their right mind would think otherwise.
Ciao

[frans belgium]

Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.

I will, tx in advance.  Smoothness and mileage already improved with the present map, I'm walways in for more...

[lucian]

I've been called a lot of things over the years, but right minded was never mentioned. Perhaps that's why I like Moto Guzzi's.

[lucian]

For Pete and Mark, wanted to report back on my impressions of the latest map, I believe it is the universal 27b9. I first reset valve lash to 6 and 8 thou. reset tps and learn parameters. It now starts cold and idles perfectly,stepper is working as it should. Throttle response is incredible all the way through the rev's.more power than I'll probable ever use. I do however still have the annoying stumble on slack throttle at 3000 to 3500 rpm's,silky smooth when on throttle only when slack throttle and no load do I get it. It did the same with the 01 map, but not at all with the 7799. I've checked the plug wires and caps for arcing and found none as it almost feels ignition related, kind of like the hiccups, Once above 4000 rpm's it all disappears. Got me wishing for that 7799 map on the low rpm side. Was also wondering if the open loop could be responsible.  Any thoughts?  Thank's again  Dave

[Vasco DG]

I don't think its related to the map per se.

This occurs on a trailing throttle, yes? When you are slowing down, in gear with the throttle closed? If so check and see if it happens consistently at 2,750-2,800rpm indicated. If it is a small 'Lurch' at that point consistently it'll be the fuel cutting back in. To avoid popping on the over-run at higher engine speeds the fuel is chopped completely at 4.6/4.8 throttle until that point. When it comes back in you can feel it and may sometimes get a small 'Pop' as it does so.

Pete

[lucian]

Thank's Pete, I am not convinced it is a fueling problem at this point, other than the fact it still has ethanol from last fall in the tank. I will refrain from any tweeking until I burn that old crap off and get some fresh octane. It is on a trailing throttle when you get the less than smooth running , but it seems to be any time you are below 3500 rpm and at steady throttle. Finally got some spring weather and will have more time to ride, I should get out this week and I'll keep you posted.  Thank you for responding.  Dave

[Birch71]

Can't wait to have the time to plug in the map for the G11!

[lucian]

Sadly I could not get Mark's Griso map to work well on my 09. Super power delivery when throttling up, but farts and coughs on slack throttle cruising in lower rev range. Re loaded the stock 01 map and it runs as it should. I have yet to venture into tuner pro, but would be interesting to compare the two maps in the lower rpm range. I think it may be related to ignition timing values. Thank you Mark for letting me try your map , Do I need to go to a dealer to try the 068s map? Other than a slight flat spot at 2900 rpm's , I am quite content with the 01.   Dave

[beetle]

Dave, yours is the only recent failure I've had with that map. Sorry I couldn't help. I can send you the 68S map if you like.

[Vasco DG]

I have to say I find this very odd and wonder if there is another problem, possibly tappet failure, involved.

Pete

[lucian]

Thank's for that Pete, I just reset valve gaps to 6 and 8 thou. They were still in spec with the old settings of 4 and 6. I will run it a bit and check them again . Don't know what to expect of the 68 map but I will run it tomorrow and find out. At what point should you pull the cam boxes and have a looksee?

[Vasco DG]

I really have no idea what is happening with your bike but it certainly seems to me that something 'Ain't right'.

There are a number of things that have set alarm bells ringing. The fact it seemed to run quite well with the 1100 map I sent you by mistake. It shouldn't of. It should of run like a dog. Now it's not running right with a map that is known to work well on multiple machines in a variety of markets and in all conditions and altitudes.

Look, it could be a glitch in the map or the upload software, I really don't know but in all honesty I doubt it. Given the proven success of the map in other machines I'd be far more inclined to start looking elsewhere for problems. Has anybody ever screwed with the throttle stop screws? Has the linkage rod been buggered about with? How's the TB balance and TPS calibration? Dous the TPS have any 'Dead' spots? Is the air filter clean and installed correctly? Has it been swapped for some sort of shitty aftermarket item? How are the plug caps? They aren't arcing to earth at certain engine speeds and loads? Are the plugs new? If not when we're they last swapped?

When you start the bike from cold is it reluctant to idle unless you goose the throttle for 30 seconds or so? When it does idle is the idle slow or erratic? When warm will it 'Chuff' back through the throttle bodies, most noticeably when the throttle is just barely opened?

As I said, it may be a mapping issue but I'll bet London to a brick that there will be some sort of hint that I'd recognise as the source of the problem rather than the map. If you want to run stuff by me either here or via PM I'll do all I can, from a remote location, to try and get to the bottom of it!

Pete

[lucian]

Here is what I have found after observing from a dead cold start, 48 degrees f. Without touching the throttle it cranks 4 times and fires up, idles at 1450 rpm for around 30 seconds and then drops to 1150, steadily. Tb's are in balance at 3000 rpm and at idle with the right side air bleed open about 1 turn,  used my twin max tool at full sensitivity setting. Air box is stock and I just replaced the filter with an oem from dealer. Yellow paint is intact on link rod ends and on right side tb stop screw. The bellcrank adjustment screw I had to adjust slightly to achieve tb balance at 3000 rpm's maybe one quarter turn. Spark plugs are original I think, 4000 miles currently and they look good gapped to .025 in. Tps reset to 4.8 and have reset self learners, not sure how to check tps for flat spots other than watching values on guzzi diag while changing throttle settings. I did get  a cough or perhaps a chuff as you mentioned with Mark's map, but I am not certain if it were back through the tb's. only in the lower rev's on a fixed throttle position. No evidence of it now with the 01 map. I will try the 068s and see what happens. It is hard to tell if the sacred screw on the left tb has been moved as it still has the yellow paint on the threads, but the center hole for the hex wrench is was not full of paint like the other side. I suspect it may have been moved slightly as the paint on the threads was slightly miss aligned. I lined it back up with the paint mark exactly and it changed the tps from 4.8 to 5.0. I then reset the tps electronically. It did not seem to effect idle at either spot. If the 68 map runs well I may try reloading Mark's map again as maybe my pos laptop could have f'd something up during the upload. I realize how difficult it is without being able to put your hands on the bike , I am happy to do what I can do with my limited skills. Thank's again    Dave.

[Vasco DG]

The fact it isn't doing it with the 01 map may be significant. We're established how very sensitive the 8V mill is to even miniscule changes in valve timing and lift. A closed loop map will adjust to these much more readily than an open loop map which doesn't compensate or change anything. I'm seriously wondering about your cams and tappets now but without a tool like a vacuum mate it's impossible to look at manifold depression dynamically which might tell us something but the only real options would be to graph the cams and compare them or remove and examine them.

In your ownership of the machine have the valve clearances opened up suddenly and inexplicably between checks at any time?

Pete

[lucian]

Pete , I understand your logic, I checked the valves shortly after purchasing and they were slightly looser than the manual setting of 4 and 6 thou. It had about 2000 miles on it then, by looser I mean maybe 1 thou. at most. I reset them to 4 and 6 and they have been holding fine for an additional 2000 miles. I just changed them to 6 and 8 when I installed Mark's map. I have no way of knowing what the gaps were set at prior to my ownership. I was however surprised that they were looser than the recommended setting, I kind of thought with valve recession they would be tight if anything, but I had no base line to judge from. Moving forward I think it may be wise to inspect the cam followers for wear, I hesitate to do so without having a roller kit on hand encase I discover the worst. When I discussed this with the dealer they said it would be a two hour charge to just inspect and if they found a failure, and if MG would provide the parts, it would be another 750 dollars labor to install, So at least a thousand dollars if all goes well. I can imagine there will be additional incidentals as there always is. I can purchase the c kit from af1 for fourteen hundred bucks and have the ability to do it myself with a little research. But to just inspect the cams and followers, will I need to replace the head and base gaskets after de torquing the heads ?Also I think I remember reading that you first have to loosen a couple of bolts at the base of the barrels. I have read the on line shop manual but it seems sketchy at best. Also I do not notice any change in the sound of the valve train, other than the standard bucket of bolts morse chain rattle, Sure do appreciate your take on all of this , I think I'll flog it hard this weekend and see if anything changes.  Stay well,   Dave     

[Vasco DG]

If your bike needs the 'C' kit, (Are there witness marks made with a drill on the inner sides of the heads?) then the heads have to be removed to add shims beneath the inlet valve springs when converting to a roller top end. This will add substantially to the time needed to do the swap. Make sure your shop knows this.

Pete

[Kiwi Dave]

If your bike needs the 'C' kit, (Are there witness marks made with a drill on the inner sides of the heads?) then the heads have to be removed to add shims beneath the inlet valve springs when converting to a roller top end. This will add substantially to the time needed to do the swap. Make sure your shop knows this.

Pete

Could they not be replaced with compressed air holding the valve in place, similar to the procedure for the valve spring replacement on the Hydro Californias?

[Vasco DG]

While in theory yes the fact is by the time the camboxes are off there is very little to be gained by doing it in-situ and you'd need a mechanism to hold the head under tension. Unlike the pushrod motor removing the rockers requires removing two of the stud nuts opening up all sorts of jolly opportunities for warping the heads etc.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

The 'FU2' is exactly what it seems - a not so subtle go at the haters who said I couldn't do it.

Lucian, I'm pleased you like it. The 4 character checksum immediately prior to the date in the file name is how I identify map iterations.

Shaun, I've got a new 2-Lambda Stelvio map of you want to try it. Mpg should be improved, and the ride should be smoother. It was smoother on the test ride (not by me) apparently.

Any Norge 8V owners who read this, I'm going to apply the same type of tweak to the Norge maps to improve smoothnes and mpg. Stay tuned.

You can bet we're staying tuned, thanks to you. :BEER:

[lucian]

Finely solved the mystery of why Mark's map did not work in my griso, seems the sacred screw had been thoroughly f@#!cked with. I have been running the 68s map Mark so graciously sent me to try. It ran well but still lacked smoothness on slack throttle, especially at 3000 rpm's and below. I first ruled out everything else I possibly could by checking tb balance and valve lash , both are spot on. Also replaced the plugs. Something struck me as odd after the tb balance and tps reset when max tps reading was only 83.6. Upon closer inspection of tb linkage I could see that the left side throttle stop (sacred screw) did not allow the right side throttle stop to even seat. Fortunately the right side stop screw had not been disturbed or the link rod ends. So I dropped the link rod off allowing the right tb to close against its factory set stop, amazingly enough the tps value went to 4.7. I then closed both air bleeds and hooked up the twin max and used the sacred screw to balance the left side with the right. Then by adjusting the bellcrank screw until the link rod became exactly aligned with the right side ball I re attached it. The sacred screw had been turned in almost a turn and a half! No wonder it couldn't trim properly. Anyway I reset the tps and self learners and continued on with the 68 map and it now ran beautifully with just a slight popping on decel occasionally. I attributed the popping to the fact that I am running a termi pipe with a factory map so I decided to re try Beetle's map again. Holly shit,, can't believe it. It is truly a joy to be able to cruise along at 3000 rpm at fixed throttle with no off on fueling, I can't thank Mark enough for his efforts. Also if it weren't for Pete and Marks generosity I probably never would have sorted out this issue. Also the popping on decel is gone and when the linear power cure hits 5000 rpm you better be paying attention. All this time the poor ecu was trying to sort out bogus input and remarkably it did a decent job of it , to a point. So thank you Mark for your outstanding creation, And thank you Pete for raising my suspicions. Aussies rule!

[Vasco DG]

That'll do it every time.

Knew it wasn't a mapping issue ergo it had to be tune/set-up.

Pete

PS. If you think you need to be paying attention at 5,000 with the Termi map I can tell you that using a no dBk Mistral Hi-Pipe with the right map and giving it the berries at 7.5 will really wake you up! :D I prefer the quiet and docility of the dbK in map but every once in a while, if I'm feeling the need.........

[andrewdonald1]

Fiinally got out on the griso today , 44 degrees and sunny. We've had a few rains and the roads are pretty clean again.and other than a few pott holes, it felt great. I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Vasco for sharing a map that transformed my bike. Oh my god, It didn't even feel like the same bike. It's an 09 and had the 01 map before, it had a shitty flat spot around 3000 revs and was snatchy at idle. Now it is as it should be, smooth all the way up through and idles perfect . I also balanced the tb's which were out both at idle and at 3500rpm's.reset tps and learn parameters and can't believe the result. Before I thought it was just guzzi character and that's the way it was going to be, man was i wrong. So thank's again Pete and Mark, I don't think that griso could run any better than it does now, it's fantastic.  ;-T


Happy Easter to all      Dave

 ;-T ;-T

[beetle]

Finely solved the mystery of why Mark's map did not work in my griso, seems the sacred screw had been thoroughly f@#!cked with.

Eureka! Good work fixing that too. Nicely done.  :bow

So thank you Mark for your outstanding creation, And thank you Pete for raising my suspicions.

 ;D ;-T    You are most welcome.

Aussies rule!

 :D

[56Pan]

(snipped)  Also the popping on decel is gone and when the linear power cure hits 5000 rpm you better be paying attention.
(snipped)

Lucian, thanks very much for taking the time to write such a good informative post.  I'm curious about the lack of backfiring on decel. with the new map?  (I'm locked into the term "backfiring" by my career choice. :))  I worked on several of my GM car engines over the years where the ECU would shut off the injectors after the throttle was closed for a short time.  The explanation I got was that it helped with engine braking when the torque converter clutch was engaged.  Do you know if the new map is shutting off fuel like this on decel.?  Which would explain the lack of backfiring, right? I haven't loaded the new map I've gotten from Mark yet, but my Norge backfires on decel. also but it doesn't bug me that much. I'm just curious. Thanks for any info.

[Vasco DG]

Fuel is chopped completely on the over-run down to, (I believe.) 2,700rpm so at 4.6-4.8 TPS reading this means that when the throttle is closed no fuel is delivered until the engine slows to 2,700 RPM. No fuel? No backfiring. With the factory maps idle fuel is delivered all the way down, no matter what the TPS reading. At certain points the pipe harmonics will make the engine 8 and 16 stroke so the mix burns in the pipe. Hence the backfiring.

Pete

[lucian]

There you have it. I would definitely recommend that you try Marks map. It's a privilege to be able to do so and will likely surprise you as to the improvement, especially in the lower rev range, and on steady throttle openings.   Just make sure your norge is tuned properly to start with as no map no matter what cannot fix mechanical set up issues.  At one point I was willing to live with the little fueling quirks on my griso as I didn't know any different, but thanks to some great folks here on wg, I was enlightened an able to resolve what had been bugging me from day one. Best of luck.  dave

[gbel]

Hey guys, I got a new Stelvio NTX last month and been reading all about the famous 'Mark map' and how much it improves throttle response -- which is one of the gripes I've been having with the bike since I use it as a commuter. I was planning on getting the whole guzzitech kit with PCV/Autotune and map but since I already have the cables for the mapping I want to give it a go to one of those custom maps.

What is the procedure to download the mapping? or better how to contact Mark :)

Thanks in advance.