Lithium Batteries

[gfritzmeier]

 I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with Lithium batteries in their bike??? I'm thinking of getting one but want to know the pro's and cons.

[drawnverybadly]

Cons- they're pricey, smaller capacity so more prone to die if there is a parasitic drain, gets weaker when the temp drops below 50, quality seems to be hit or miss depending on the brand, your normal tender won't work with them, certain brands are sensitive to moisture causing shorts
Pros- Soooooo light! I replaced my 11 pound Yuasa with a tiny 1 pound Anti-gravity and the weight loss is very noticeable

[jackson]

One of my sons has put one in his Harley and a Suzuki sport bike that he owns.  Both have given him lots of problems when the weather turns coldish...........s o he finally gave up and trashed both of them.

[redrider]

Fine if you live in the tropics. Mine needed to sit inside for hours just to start the Benelli which sleeps in a garage that never dips below 55F. Oh, once going, don't stop for lunch if the ambient is below 70F. Excessive starter solenoid consumption.

[Stephen]

I have no experience with Li Ion for MCs, however I wonder if the MCs charging system is up to handling a Li Ion.
The reason I say this is, I recentley attended a full disclosure meeting with the NTSB and the FAA regarding the Li Ion battery on the Boeing 787 as well as factory training.
As mentioned temperature has an effect, as temps increase above 90f there is a chemical change, so being in Texas I won't be buying one.

Fyi, the 787 Battery cost $86,000 each  :o

[Triple Jim]

Fyi, the 787 Battery cost $86,000 each  :o

That's OK, the fuel capacity is over 30,000 gallons, so one fillup costs more than a battery.   :)

[atavar]

Don't forget the safety issues.  Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated.  Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery.  That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be

[Bisbonian]

Don't forget the safety issues.  Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated.  Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery.  That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be

The lithium iron phosphate batteries used for vehicles are different than lithium ion laptop batteries.

No danger of thermal runaway.

[yogidozer]

Cons- they're pricey, smaller capacity so more prone to die if there is a parasitic drain, gets weaker when the temp drops below 50, quality seems to be hit or miss depending on the brand, your normal tender won't work with them, certain brands are sensitive to moisture causing shorts
Pros- Soooooo light! I replaced my 11 pound Yuasa with a tiny 1 pound Anti-gravity and the weight loss is very noticeable

the 11 lbs lost came from an empty wallet!

[kevdog3019]

Been using them for years.  Love them.  Have patience below 50 and hit the starter a couple times.  It will rev up and fire the bike pretty quickly.  Parasitic drain is not its friend.  Sounds like the haters don't understand them.  You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.  Just because the starter does possible NOTHING the first try means it's simply cold and needs to warm up.  The juices get going pretty quickly, give them a few seconds after hitting the starter once or twice and away it will spin.  I don't generally ride below 50 degrees so to me it's a non-issue.  If you have no patience and like instant gratification, them don't get one if you ride in the cold.  They actually hold a better charge in the cold.  
So much is misunderstood about these things it's baffling.

[Aaron D.]

Love my Ballistic. Third year now, never a failure, and only gets a little slow at 40, then I just crank it twice.

[kevdog3019]

One of my sons has put one in his Harley and a Suzuki sport bike that he owns.  Both have given him lots of problems when the weather turns coldish...........s o he finally gave up and trashed both of them.

Tell us the problems please?  Did he know he can thumb the starter a couple times when they seem "weak"?  They will get "strong" pretty quickly with a little patience <shrug>. My take is the Harley and sport bike types aren't going to like hearing their bike with a wimpy starter around their buddies at first attempt in cold temps. Guzzi guys don't care. These things will crank much harder for much longer than the lead/acid types that fade pretty quickly. If your bike is at all finicky at start-up you get many solid chances for it to fire up at full throttle of your starter.

[Big Block Jon]

Yes to this:
"The lithium iron phosphate batteries used for vehicles are different than lithium ion laptop batteries."  The lithium Iron used in a lot of the motorcycle batteries cannot catch fire.
I've been using a Ballistic in my 1000s for two years in Minnesota, never had an issue. left it in the garage all winter with no battery tender.  My bike started right up a few weeks ago. Also, my headlight is noticeably brighter than with the old Yuasa. I get 14v at the posts whenever I've checked.

In the cold, a lithium-based battery will behave in a completely different manner than lead-acid. Often the most mechanically experienced among us find it hardest to wrap their heads around this (or somehow missed the memo).   A lead acid battery begins cranking at it's strongest; in other words, your first attempt  will be the strongest, with additional attempts growing weaker and weaker (assuming the engine doesn't fire).   The OPPOSITE is true of a lithium ion battery.  In the cold (40F or below) the first attempt may yield little or nothing, but as you attempt to crank again and again it will gain strength, starting the bike after ten or fifteen seconds of draw.  This is an understood phenomenon. anything that creates a draw in the cold will internally warm the thing and it will produce good current. Some people have suggested plugging in your heated gear a few seconds before starting the bike, or installing a simple resistor on a switch, in the harness.  Put a little draw on the battery for five or ten seconds, and the thing will fire right up.  

The real downside of lithium (as others have noted) that any parasitic draw is much more dangerous to the battery. The literature warns  that if one ever lets it drop below about 6v, these batteries are un-recoverable. Anecdotally however, I can report that I accidentally left my key in the "accessory" position over a weekend last summer, draining the battery to less than 3 volts, but after putting it on an ordinary charger it recovered and has been maintaining charge ever since.

[Wayne Orwig]

LiFe, Lithium IRON
Not to be confused with LiIon or LiPo.
Few of the safety issues of LiIon.
But, they can easily be destroyed if allowed to be drained.
They struggle to provide current when cold.
You really should use a special balance charger on them

Add to it that my factory AGM battery is now 11 years old and going strong. And I don't get the point of them.

[Big Block Jon]

well, I cut about 19 lbs. of weight, freed up enough space for a tool kit in the battery compartment, have better start-up, brighter lights and dont need to worry about winter killing my battery if I don't put it on a tender. But other than that, I guess, nothing.

[canuguzzi]

Been using them for years.  Love them.  Have patience below 50 and hit the starter a couple times.  It will rev up and fire the bike pretty quickly.  Parasitic drain is not its friend.  Sounds like the haters don't understand them.  You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.  Just because the starter does possible NOTHING the first try means it's simply cold and needs to warm up.  The juices get going pretty quickly, give them a few seconds after hitting the starter once or twice and away it will spin.  I don't generally ride below 50 degrees so to me it's a non-issue.  If you have no patience and like instant gratification, them don't get one if you ride in the cold.  They actually hold a better charge in the cold.  
So much is misunderstood about these things it's baffling.

So true. The stories about exploding batteries are for a different chemistry. When AGM batteries first came out, there were plenty of stories about them too and then they get ingrained in mythology and to date you'll get folks that won't use an AGM because of old stories.

Pound for pound, nothing can compare to the capacity of a lithium. They also discharge in a very linear fashion, unlike other batteries. They also charge much faster because they have lower internal resistance.

The real high quality lithiums can use the bikes charging system as is.

We'll spend big bucks on a new exhaust, then have to remap the bike just for a better sound, rework a center or side stand, then go cheap on the battery. Go figure.

Recently had to start a 90 Buick with a completely dead battery. Hooked up a lithium battery pack the size of two smartphones stacked and it started the car right up. That battery pack can fit into your pocket. Connect it, waited 5 seconds and car started.

Sold.

[kevdog3019]

For under $100 bucks I now have an Antigravity battery (jumpstart) the size of my iPhone 5 that will jump start a V8 truck. It's got a flashlight and warning lights on it also and weighs 8oz
I now have it on me when I ride and when in the truck. I figure I can help others also. Jumper cables are small and fit in my pocket. Cheap insurance. Oh... it comes with all the hookups for charging your phone/laptop/tablet also. Just plug them in. No charger necessary for it as it plugs into your wall or cigarette lighter in vehicle. To me these are no-brainers to carry along.
Wayne, think weight/space savings and more cranking power. I've owned one about 5 years now with no issues. I'll let you know when I hit 11 years.  ;)
Once people get educated...

[kevdog3019]

Don't forget the safety issues.  Li batteries are very known for exploding (violently) if shorted or heated.  Are you sure you want to sit on that?
http://www.techlicious.com/blog/the-risk-of-exploding-lithium-ion-batteries/
This video is showing a failure of a lithium laptop battery.  That batter is puny compared to what you would put in a bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V482lvMRXUg&feature=youtu.be

You are sitting on a combustion engine... beware!  ::)

[bpreynolds]

That there "Search" box for the board will get you lots of results as per lithium batteries - and quite a number of frustrations but always with a few folks who love them too.  Total fail here and I'll never buy another for KY climate.  Bought Shorai battery and special charger for my former Stelvio.  Had big high hopes.  Stranded me in less than a week even after coming off the charger that morning.  But wow did it save a ton of weight on my parking lot only top heavy Stelvio (once moving a graceful dancer) that I owned for a while.  Best advice seems to me if you have the money go ahead and buy one but if you have boxes, take the standard battery with you everywhere you go for the first couple weeks just in case.  

[greer]

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

That link may have been posted before, but it's a must-read if you are considering lithium, in my opinion.  And it offers all around good battery stuff in general.

Sarah

[redrider]

Sounds like the haters don't understand them.  You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.

I understand them and LA types. I was a battery service tech, material handling equipment. I purchased the first one with the balance charger. That one overheated to the point of too hot to touch. Warrantied out. The replacement did not overheat but could not start the machine below 70F. And I was using the 12 cell Ballistic where the cross ref indicated the 8 cell would be sufficient. Two solenoids fried within two months trying to get enough heat built up to crank the bike. Using the balance charger in the garage before the first attempt did not help. The only way to crank the bike was to remove and keep it inside overnight or set in front of the register for a bit. Doing that, she cranked with gusto.  Every stop below 70F was an exercise in frustration. Charging system on the bike works as designed. If they work for you, good. I ride year round and need reliable, first try starting.

[lrutt]

I've had a Shorai in my Honda XR650L now for 3 years. Battery had same CCA as stock but 1/3 the size. Has worked flawlessly for 3 years. Never on a tender...as you have to have special chargers for these.

[drw916]

When my 10 year old AGM Bartley dies on thr R 1100S I'll be going to lithium because of the weight savings and the high, under the tank location.

On the Stelvio, don't really see enough benefits for the cost.

[kevdog3019]

Sounds like the haters don't understand them.  You DON"T need to warm them up inside the house before use.

I understand them and LA types. I was a battery service tech, material handling equipment. I purchased the first one with the balance charger. That one overheated to the point of too hot to touch. Warrantied out. The replacement did not overheat but could not start the machine below 70F. And I was using the 12 cell Ballistic where the cross ref indicated the 8 cell would be sufficient. Two solenoids fried within two months trying to get enough heat built up to crank the bike. Using the balance charger in the garage before the first attempt did not help. The only way to crank the bike was to remove and keep it inside overnight or set in front of the register for a bit. Doing that, she cranked with gusto.  Every stop below 70F was an exercise in frustration. Charging system on the bike works as designed. If they work for you, good. I ride year round and need reliable, first try starting.

You sir had a bad battery.  As a service tech knowing your stuff I would have returned the second as well.  I can see why you have a bad taste in your mouth, but that is very unusual behavior for any battery, let alone a 12 cell.  A 12 cell should be able to power your house.  There are duds with all batteries sorry to say... but you know this.   

[charlie b]

The link Sarah posted is the most complete explanation of the Lithium battery issue I have seen yet.

The main point that some might miss in all that.

You have to size the battery properly, NOT use what the mfg's recommend.  For cold weather especially, you need enough capacity to 1) heat the battery and 2) start the engine.  If you use the mfg's recommendations you get enough for starting but not for heating and starting, which is why many people have such a bad experience with them.  If you are going to be in really cold climates you basically need a much larger capacity battery, which will be very expensive.

When I looked at them a year ago I was going to have to spend in the >$400 range for a battery.  I ride fairly often when the temps are in the 20's.  Most of my rides start with temps in the low 40's.  So, huge capacity is needed.

I currently have a garden tractor battery in the bike.  It is going on 3 yrs now so am looking to replace and will go with an AGM, only because of the price difference.

[kevdog3019]

The link Sarah posted is the most complete explanation of the Lithium battery issue I have seen yet.

The main point that some might miss in all that.

You have to size the battery properly, NOT use what the mfg's recommend.  For cold weather especially, you need enough capacity to 1) heat the battery and 2) start the engine.  If you use the mfg's recommendations you get enough for starting but not for heating and starting, which is why many people have such a bad experience with them.  If you are going to be in really cold climates you basically need a much larger capacity battery, which will be very expensive.

When I looked at them a year ago I was going to have to spend in the >$400 range for a battery.  I ride fairly often when the temps are in the 20's.  Most of my rides start with temps in the low 40's.  So, huge capacity is needed.

I currently have a garden tractor battery in the bike.  It is going on 3 yrs now so am looking to replace and will go with an AGM, only because of the price difference.

Not really true Charlie.  Heating the battery isn't the issue, it's capacity.  As the article points out, if you store the bike with a half toasted battery from the night before, there will not be enough "activity" left to start the bike.  Why is there a half toasted battery from the night before?  Because someone hooked up heated gear, etc. that took an amp draw out of the battery that it could ill afford.  So... the cold start is not the issue, it's capacity.  If you hook up extras like ADV Riders do, then you need much more capacity in your LiFe battery which makes sense because that's not their strong suit.  Living in a cold climate alone does not make for the necessity to have WAY more battery than recommended by the manufacturer. If you run extras get more cells, if not, I have had no issues being at the bottom of the range. I'm currently using a 4 cell that is ONLY recommended for racing bikes with no extras and high charge rates.  I am having no issues with charge even with cold starts, but I run NO extras.  It has very little capacity but lots of zip to turn over the starter on a small block (still less than my previous 8 cell, but adequate).  It weighs 13 oz.  I started the bike 6 different times (some with high turnover rates) on my 115 mile run yesterday, came home and found it fully charged.  I'm giving a good test with something too small and not recommended for my bike.  So far so good.  You don't ALWAYS need more for every application.

These are the opposite ends:

Adventure rider uses a ton of extras that use capacity and the bike can't charge at a rate to keep up thus using battery capacity.
-Must use as large a LiFe battery as possible.
Cafe bike with NO extras, runs higher RPM with good charge rate and longer rides to fully charge the battery.
-Can use minimal capacity LiFe battery

You need to be aware before purchase.  I agree that at some point it isn't worth the $$ to use these things.  I won't argue that.

[charlie b]

Capacity for starting is the issue.

If you are using  more electrical gear than your alternator can produce then you have more problems than just the battery.

[Wayne Orwig]

Wayne, think weight/space savings and more cranking power.

More cranking power when it is below freezing, I'll stick with my AGM.
If weight saving mattered, I wouldn't be riding a Moto Guzzi with a trailer hitch on it.

[dibble]

Cafe bike with NO extras, runs higher RPM with good charge rate and longer rides to fully charge the battery.
-Can use minimal capacity LiFe battery

So how low can I go on a V50 safely? The Guzzi probably never goes out below 10 degrees C (52F ish).

[kevdog3019]

So how low can I go on a V50 safely? The Guzzi probably never goes out below 10 degrees C (52F ish).

8 cell is perfect. I'm only doing an "Extreme" 4-cell Antigravity that gives good cranking but little capacity because of my application.  I want it hidden. Not sure but the Antigravity 4cell regular battery would likely crank a 500cc (as I believe that's the limit they state) and has better capacity. Do a little research on that. The 8 would be more than plenty and it's still very small (any brand). I've had an 8 cell for years on my 650 Lario. Never missed a beat.