Author Topic: Spring pre load  (Read 12517 times)

Offline RANDM

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2017, 07:59:54 AM »
......., you don't see many people stopped
by the side of the road adjusting their susp. because a set of good
corners is coming up! .......


I guess that's exactly what the modern electronic suspension systems do??


Yes - off corse it is, and I guess it must be great for those
who like that sort of thing, but we're only talking basic and
Getting to know what's what.



Ncdan - do a little reading, a reasonable understanding for
road riding is good stuff and not that hard. The Black Art bit
Is what the racers are chasing and beyond what you really
Need for regular type road riding.

Find your happy spot for solo, Dinking or Touring Solo - add
a little Pre-load and Rebound. Touring two up - add a little more,
a dab if tyre pressure helps keep things taut to.

Cheers Maurie.

Offline tris

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2017, 09:02:13 AM »

Yes - off corse it is, and I guess it must be great for those
who like that sort of thing, but we're only talking basic and
Getting to know what's what
.....

That's exactly why I'm interested.

Solo my bike feels perfectly fine to me for the way I ride around here in Lincolnshire.

However, in May I'm off on a tour of Wales and will be fully loaded for the first time and am likely to be on some nadgery bumpy roads

So I'm trying to educate myself as to the symptoms and the simple solutions should it go all weird on me  :azn:

2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

oldbike54

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2017, 02:28:56 PM »
 Tris , my Brit buddies have indicated that simply being in Wales is kinda weird no matter what  :laugh:

 Dusty

Online Kev m

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2017, 03:01:53 PM »


.

Waxi,
Might be overthinking it a bit - while Spring rates ona pair of
Shocks might not be exactly matched they'll be close and with
a twin shock bike the pre load is a stepped adjustment - put each
On the same step and your Golden. Screw thread Pre-load is
More the norm on Monoshock bikes.

Maurie.

Just an FYI, though screw thread may be more common in mono-shock bikes you'll find it on my twin shock bikes including both the V7s and 2016+ Sportsters. Not to mention aftermarket shocks for twin shock applications like YSS.

So Waxi, yes count threads or measure length of exposed threads.

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13 Guzzi V7 Stone
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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2017, 03:01:53 PM »

Offline RANDM

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2017, 03:24:04 PM »
Tris - then spending a little time reading the Total Control,
Linky back one page, or Race Tech stuff might help more.

Oh - and of corse Kevs right, I worded that badly.

Cheers Maurie.

Offline tris

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2017, 03:45:08 PM »
Already printed  :thumb:

And the "if it does this then the problem is probably that" section is very good.

I just need to read it a bunch more times and match the changes to the adjustments I have on the bike.

Better now than trying to work it out on the side of a Welsh road

Thanks for the pointers
2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Orange Guzzi

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2017, 03:59:00 PM »
Does not compute: How do you convert weight (pounds) to spring rate (pounds per inch)?

PS: Many shock/spring assemblies, particularly those with stepped preload adjusters, have some preload at the lowest preload setting.

2 ways, calculate it or know what the spring rate is based on what shock/spring set up you purchased.

Someone knows here how to calculate or look on the www for a spring rate calculator formula.

Orange Guzzi

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2017, 04:01:18 PM »
Now throw the air temperature in and the oil viscosity and you can start all over with your settings.

Offline RANDM

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2017, 04:10:11 PM »
Oh look ................ Is that a can of worms over there!

: ) Maurie. A

Offline nobleswood

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2017, 04:15:51 PM »
Already printed  :thumb:

And the "if it does this then the problem is probably that" section is very good.

I just need to read it a bunch more times and match the changes to the adjustments I have on the bike.

Better now than trying to work it out on the side of a Welsh road

Mr Hagan keeps his Guzzi workshop manual on his iPhone which seems a great idea to me, cos when you're broken down on the side of the road that's when it's really useful.
I've put that suspension pdf on my phone just so I can figure it out as I go.
2004 V11 Sport Naked / Ballabio
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Orange Guzzi

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2017, 04:31:04 PM »
Oh look ................ Is that a can of worms over there!

: ) Maurie. A

No, just a half eaten can of b.s. 

I always dreamed of a bike that would perform better than I can ride.  Then I realized I have 5 in my garage.   Riding a bike to it's limits is beyond most peoples ability.  Even professional riders. 

Offline RANDM

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2017, 05:04:54 PM »
True that.

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2017, 07:07:24 PM »
No, just a half eaten can of b.s. 

I always dreamed of a bike that would perform better than I can ride.  Then I realized I have 5 in my garage.   Riding a bike to it's limits is beyond most peoples ability.  Even professional riders.
Best quote of the day:)

Offline waxi

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2017, 04:35:43 AM »
So Waxi, yes count threads or measure length of exposed threads.

 :thumb:
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Offline redhawk47

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2017, 10:57:36 AM »
What is the suspension travel on a 2016 V7II Stone?
The Owners Manual says 137mm Front & 85mm Rear
The web site says 130mm Front and 111mm Rear
I wonder if the V7II manual was not updated from V7 spec?
I'm trying to set preload using static/rider sag as a percent of travel.

BTW, the rear travel on the Racer is less, perhaps because of the different shock.
Dan
2021 V85TT Centenario, 2016 V7II Stone, CSC TT250, Gone:KLR, CSC RX3,

Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2017, 01:21:37 PM »
I'm trying to set preload using static/rider sag as a percent of travel.

Why?  What magic percentage figure are you planning to pluck out of the sky?

Instead, follow what RANDM (Maurie) says on the first page of this discussion:

"The Pre-Load sets the suspension at the ideal height for Damping to be most effective."

There's your clue for deciding on the amount of preload to apply.

Offline RANDM

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2017, 03:14:18 PM »

I'm trying to set preload using static/rider sag as a percent of travel.



I suppose you could if you have all the info but a zip tie around
the Shock Shaft/Fork Leg and a tape measure do pretty good.

We're not trying to refine it to attempt a 300 kph corner, and I
couldn't help you there anyway. On a built to a price road bike
with average suspension your not going to transform anything
from a sows shell like sound wave collector to a silken women's
disguise supply container anyway.
Do the background reading get some basic figures for a starting
point, make small changes one at a time noting the effect of each
change - don't just go " oh, that's a bit diffrunt " write it down for
reference. Your looking for an evolution in you bikes feel so it feels
"Right" - your not likely to get Revolution and change your cooking
model into a race winner with  couple of clicks - be nice but it ain't
Gonna happen.

Maurie.

Offline redhawk47

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2017, 12:06:55 AM »
What is the suspension travel on a 2016 V7II Stone?
The Owners Manual says 137mm Front & 85mm Rear
The web site says 130mm Front and 111mm Rear
I wonder if the V7II manual was not updated from V7 spec?
I'm trying to set preload using static/rider sag as a percent of travel.

I found the answer for the rear shock, which was my main concern, on the Italian Moto Guzzi website.
Rear wheel travel is 111mm. Measured to vertical direction.
Rear shock travel is 85mm. Measured in line with the shock.

It also follows that front wheel travel is 130mm, measured vertical.
Front shock travel is 137mm, measured in line with the shock.

Dan
Dan
2021 V85TT Centenario, 2016 V7II Stone, CSC TT250, Gone:KLR, CSC RX3,

Offline redhawk47

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2017, 12:11:28 AM »
Why?  What magic percentage figure are you planning to pluck out of the sky?

Instead, follow what RANDM (Maurie) says on the first page of this discussion:

"The Pre-Load sets the suspension at the ideal height for Damping to be most effective."

There's your clue for deciding on the amount of preload to apply.

I'm looking for a starting point. Suggested preload for touring is about 30% of full travel. There is a lot of difference between 85mm and 111mm.

Dan
Dan
2021 V85TT Centenario, 2016 V7II Stone, CSC TT250, Gone:KLR, CSC RX3,

Online Huzo

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2017, 12:20:21 AM »
I'm looking for a starting point. Suggested preload for touring is about 30% of full travel. There is a lot of difference between 85mm and 111mm.

Dan
Keep buggerising around anyway Dan. The more you do, the more you'll learn. I've always sorta left that stuff pretty well alone, that's probably why I don't know anything about it. Like ECU's and similar..

Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2017, 01:29:44 PM »
I'm looking for a starting point. Suggested preload for touring is about 30% of full travel. There is a lot of difference between 85mm and 111mm.

Sure.  Set it there, and if you don't bottom or top out, and you're happy with the ride height, then the preload is at the correct setting (for you).

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2017, 10:35:10 PM »
I got yer preload right here.





image



Offline Tom H

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2017, 10:43:43 PM »
I'm thinking that someone added a bit of spacer to that shock in that pic to add a extra bit of pre load.

Tom
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2017, 10:55:52 PM »
Note the deft hacksaw work.

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2017, 11:03:40 PM »
isn't the rule of thumb 3/4 in sag?

perhaps I missed it with all the posts? 
John L 
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Offline redhawk47

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2017, 11:54:30 PM »
isn't the rule of thumb 3/4 in sag?

Usually it is a percent of travel. Travel varies a lot from cruisers to dirt bikes. The suggested percent varies depending on the type of riding: touring, racing, dirt, etc. About 30% is typical.
Dan
2021 V85TT Centenario, 2016 V7II Stone, CSC TT250, Gone:KLR, CSC RX3,

Offline tris

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2017, 01:55:58 AM »
RIGHT!!

I've been reading and doing my homework and think I've distilled it down into language I can get my head around but could do with a bit of clarification

Once I've set the sag up correctly I need to take a look at the damping.

If I have this correctly the damping is there to control the rate at which the spring compresses or expands such that the wheel remains in contact with the ground and a "good" ride is achieved.

NOW - when I load the kitchen sink et-al on the bike in the Summer for the Wales mission the need to reset the spring pre-load to carry the load is clear, but do the damping rates need to change?

Secondly - my B11 has a mono shock buried in the middle of the bike connect via a linkage of some ratio to the swing arm.

Presumably the fact that the spring doesn't travel the same distance as the wheel is irrelevant and I still measure the vertical travel of the wheel?

I'm pretty good at mechanical usually, but suspension theory has always tended to fall into a bit of a black hole in the past - but this thread has helped a lot

So thanks for your patience and advice


2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Online Huzo

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2017, 02:14:51 AM »
RIGHT!!

I've been reading and doing my homework and think I've distilled it down into language I can get my head around but could do with a bit of clarification

Once I've set the sag up correctly I need to take a look at the damping.

If I have this correctly the damping is there to control the rate at which the spring compresses or expands such that the wheel remains in contact with the ground and a "good" ride is achieved.

NOW - when I load the kitchen sink et-al on the bike in the Summer for the Wales mission the need to reset the spring pre-load to carry the load is clear, but do the damping rates need to change?

Secondly - my B11 has a mono shock buried in the middle of the bike connect via a linkage of some ratio to the swing arm.

Presumably the fact that the spring doesn't travel the same distance as the wheel is irrelevant and I still measure the vertical travel of the wheel?

I'm pretty good at mechanical usually, but suspension theory has always tended to fall into a bit of a black hole in the past - but this thread has helped a lot

So thanks for your patience and advice
Now I wouldn't have had the guts to post this before, but given the supportive comments I've had I'll give it a go, but anyone please shoot me down if needed. When you load your stuff on the bike Tris, remember that adjusting the pre load, (according to the combined weight of wisdom/opinion), will NOT enable the rear suspension to carry the load better, it'll just raise the rear end to give more "ride height", so when you plop the combined tonnage of you and gear on board, the bike will sit more or less level as previous. (I think !!)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:17:50 AM by Huzo »

Offline tris

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2017, 02:34:32 AM »
Now I wouldn't have had the guts to post this before, but given the supportive comments I've had I'll give it a go, but anyone please shoot me down if needed. When you load your stuff on the bike Tris, remember that adjusting the pre load, (according to the combined weight of wisdom/opinion), will NOT enable the rear suspension to carry the load better, it'll just raise the rear end to give more "ride height", so when you plop the combined tonnage of you and gear on board, the bike will sit more or less level as previous. (I think !!)

TONNAGE  :shocked: :shocked:

However after posting I did something radical and READ THE MANUAL  :shocked:

Guzzi say

Just me                  pre-load is 8 clicks from fully soft and rebound is 14 clicks  from fully closed
Me plus luggage     pre-load at 35 clicks and rebound at 11 clicks
Maxed out              pre-load MAX rebound 8 clicks

So the rebound needs to change




2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Online Huzo

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Re: Spring pre load
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »
Hmmmm..

 

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