ngc. Volvo going electric

[blackcat]

I actually love the concept of hybrids, and have wondered why Toyota hasn't expanded its Prius line to include a sports coupe, a convertible, a real-deal wagon, and maybe a Ute.  They just keep trudging along with 5-door hatches.  Boring.

They really are boring, and the new ones look like some kind of praying mantis type bug. Except for the latest, they are the car version of the 70's Earth Shoe. 

[Testarossa]

Regarding the life-cycle emissions of e-cars vs internal combustion, 95% of studies done say that EVs are at least 50% cleaner .

https://www.google.com/#q=cradle+to+grave+pollution+electric+vehicles

This is true even when you recharge on coal-powered electricity -- because modern coal plants are about 40% efficient (60% of the energy is lost as waste heat), and the average auto ice runs about 20% efficient, partly because at idle efficiency is 0%, wheras an electric motor at rest draws 0 amps.

Much b.s. has been written about the environmental cost of lithium battery manufacturing. In fact modern li batteries use no rare earth metals and new, cheap sources of lithium, are in development now.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-03-29/the-great-nevada-lithium-rush-to-fuel-the-new-economy

The stuff you read about the environmental horrors of EVs is bought and paid for by the same fossil fuel guys who delayed the prohibition of tetraethyl lead for 40 years, and by the libertarians who brought you 40 years of tobacco-related cancer denial.

Recommended reading: https://www.amazon.com/Merchants-Doubt-Handful-Scientists-Obscured/dp/1608193942/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499370485&sr=1-1&keywords=merchants+of+doubt

[rodekyll]

Almost everybody

Actually....NO ONE.

It cant be done. There is no possible way to conduct an observed study proving man is the problem.
Why? To do the study man has to be removed. How ya gonna do that?

Maybe Volvo will subcontract the cars to Tesla.

There will never be proof enough for you.  Just saying.

[oldbike54]

Almost everybody

Actually....NO ONE.

It cant be done. There is no possible way to conduct an observed study proving man is the problem.
Why? To do the study man has to be removed. How ya gonna do that?

Maybe Volvo will subcontract the cars to Tesla.

 Actually it is the addition of man , not the removal of man that allows science to understand what is happening . Ice core samples are the main way we can tell what is going on with climate.There are also other data points and info , science has been predicting the effects of burning fossil fuels since the 1950's , way before computer modeling . It's real , no denying it will make it not real . Just like the Earth is more or less round , and the sky is blue , and the Sun is 400 times larger than our moon . 

[rodekyll]

Dusty, there are folks who "believe" things, and will maintain their "beliefs" despite any evidence to the contrary.  It's a waste of energy (to stay on topic) to reason with them because they are not operating at a "reason" level.  My message is to conserve your energy.   

[oldbike54]

 Most of us , myself certainly included , can't really get up on our high horse about the issue , because we helped contribute to the problem . It is however time to move on from fossil fuels . It won't happen overnight , but it will happen . My understanding is Sweden has become a major market for Tesla , seems maybe Volvo is making a smart business move .

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

It is however time to move on from fossil fuels . It won't happen overnight , but it will happen. My understanding is Sweden has become a major market for Tesla, seems maybe Volvo is making a smart business move.

Scandinavia is a 'different' place on a lot of levels, but one that is measurable is where they get their electricity:  In Sweden and Norway its sourced almost entirely from hydropower.  So for them in that region electric transportation may make sense.  Meanwhile Norway has large scale government owned oil production and sells it to the EU, which they have very carefully chosen not to join and which has very limited energy resources and lots of people driving IC cars.  The EU oil money gets used to do all sorts of things domestically in Norway.  It's kind of a fantasy world view and lifestyle, based on having lots of energy in the region.  The Volvo press release reflects Scandinavia's ability to power their own electric cars with hydropower, while also making a PR statement that will help sell (mainly hybrid IC powered 'electric') cars in Europe and elsewhere.  Politically Correct Anything is increasingly the most effective advertising tactic in Europe and electric has now come into vogue after the Diesel fiasco moved that off the Euro PC radar.

[Two Checks]

Actually it is the addition of man , not the removal of man that allows science to understand what is happening . Ice core samples are the main way we can tell what is going on with climate.There are also other data points and info , science has been predicting the effects of burning fossil fuels since the 1950's , way before computer modeling . It's real , no denying it will make it not real . Just like the Earth is more or less round , and the sky is blue , and the Sun is 400 times larger than our moon .

That is unproven theory. The only way to prove it is to duplicate it. It cant be done.
In proving a theory you establish a benchmark. Then you remove the item which you believe is the cause(man). How can you remove man from the climate? You cant so any study result is yet more theory or computer model which is a program written to achieve the desired result.
Saying the addition of man to the equatin is the problem is a foregone conclusion without any observed actual data having been gathered without having man in it. It assumes the result before any study is done.
What caused the ice age and what cased its end?
Without an observed climate study that removes man from the climate any result is only a theory which cannot be proved.

[oldbike54]

 Sorry TC , you are using circular logic , so any further discussion is a waste of time .

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

 I think a good example of man's influence is the obvious industrial and sewage pollution of lakes and river in USA after the arrival of the Europeans...It all happened in about 100 years...The atmosphere is a lot bigger but given enough time and enough "waste" I believe what happened to the water can happen to the air and cause or at least accelerate climate changes...

[Chuck in Indiana]

I think if someone is open minded and spends some time reading about how the carbon cycle actually works, they will have a more informed opinion than "belief." <shrug>

[LowRyter]

Volvo announced today that in two years they will no longer produce internal combustion vehicles. Only electric or hybrid.  Not sure if this covers their big rigs and busses, too.

I like the Volvo SUV's.  Can't afford them,  but i like them.

That is incorrect.  Volvo will only sell hybrid or electric vehicles in new models in that time frame. 

Hybrids are internal combustion vehicles. 

[LowRyter]

Yep.  Articles out there come down on both sides.

Most people I know, who buy hybrids and EVs, only give a shite about how much they spend on gasoline.  The Prius owners are particularly annoying.

Me?  I love burning gasoline.  It makes me happy. I burned two tanks of fuel in my V8-powered GMC dually pickup last weekend. 9-MPG all the way.  It was fantastic!

That new Tesla looks like it would be a nice ride. Volvo might be the first major car maker that might approach Tesla.



But of course, I like Honda Accords.  I've said that I can't justify spending more or less for a car than an Accord.   

[LowRyter]

Dusty, there are folks who "believe" things, and will maintain their "beliefs" despite any evidence to the contrary.  It's a waste of energy (to stay on topic) to reason with them because they are not operating at a "reason" level.  My message is to conserve your energy.   

yep.

I've lost friends and been kicked of message board for the same.  But I am sure those guys felt the same about me.

[Unkept]

Here in Germany it's quite different at a stop light when it comes to noise.

Most modern gasoline cars automatically shut their engine off at stops, and it starts up again as they go.

To be honest the only vehicles that I usually encounter at stop light that are loud at idle are motorcycles, scooters, and tractors (not usually Moto Guzzi's ;) ). 

I wish I had an electric motorcycle at the moment. Living next to the mountains, but not having any commute time, it would be the perfect wheeled companion for a little after work fun.

Bring them on I say!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hey, Joe.. I rode a Zero sport last year. That thing was an absolute hoot! 

[Tusayan]

Here in Germany it's quite different at a stop light when it comes to noise.

Most modern gasoline cars automatically shut their engine off at stops, and it starts up again as they go.

To be honest the only vehicles that I usually encounter at stop light that are loud at idle are motorcycles, scooters, and tractors (not usually Moto Guzzi's ;) ). 

Yes, German law does seem obsessed with the absence of sound. At least they have Guzzis to give some relief from the monotony.

Re cars that stop their engines at every stop sign: I've rented cars that did that, and found it unbelievably annoying to either put up with it or turn it off every time I started the car, which is mostly what I did.  When buying a new car recently I made absolutely sure it had no such feature.

[vstevens]

Electric cars are the future.  Last year I dipped my toe into the water and leased a fiat 500e (electric).  It's not a hybrid but all electric.  Very comfortable and quiet, perfect for my commute when I just want to get to where I want in a relaxed manner.  I plug it in at night into the regular 110 outlet and get enough charge for the next day.  With the advent of professor John  Goodenough's new sodium batteries, its only a matter of time before electric transport is the norm.

As far as climate change goes, 50+ years of science doesn't care what you believe.

[Lannis]

As far as climate change goes, 50+ years of science doesn't care what you believe.

Yep.   And 10,000+ years of actual and natural climate variations doesn't care what scientists believe!

If the good Professor's sodium batteries give the cars the range that people outside the coastal cities need to get back and forth to work and run errands, then the 120 years of promising more than electric cars can provide will be FINALLY over ....

Lannis

[kirby1923]

There is a fellow here that has a 70ish VW beetle with an electric motor and a bunch of lead acid bats where the back seat was.
He told me the motor was a starter motor for a big Russian radial AC engine.  100 hp on 24 volts.(he runs it on 12 v).yippee
Rumor has it that it will out drag anything on the station.

[vstevens]

That is unproven theory. The only way to prove it is to duplicate it. It cant be done.
In proving a theory you establish a benchmark. Then you remove the item which you believe is the cause(man). How can you remove man from the climate? You cant so any study result is yet more theory or computer model which is a program written to achieve the desired result.
Saying the addition of man t o the equatin is the problem is a foregone conclusion without any observed actual data having been gathered without having man in it. It assumes the result before any study is done.
What caused the ice age and what cased its end?
Without an observed climate study that removes man from the climate any result is only a theory which cannot be proved.

No such thing as an unproven scientific theory..  or a proven one.  Scientific theory is based on a preponderance of evidence that supports an idea.  Theory advances as scientists test (a hypothesis or testable question) various aspects of the theory in an attempt to disprove that particular hypothesis or reach a 'null' hypothesis (no disproof reached but science doesn't call that 'proof' - because not everything can be understood).  Results are published in journals, repeated via peer review, and peer reviews are published so results can be questioned and analyzed publicly. 

Scientific theory is not the same as detective show 'theory' which tries to prove 'who done it'.

Belief is based on faith (which can be a good or bad thing).  Science is based on evidence, not someone's idea of truth.

[PJPR01]

No such thing as an unproven scientific theory..  or a proven one.  Scientific theory is based on a preponderance of evidence that supports an idea.  Theory advances as scientists test (a hypothesis or testable question) various aspects of the theory in an attempt to disprove that particular hypothesis or reach a 'null' hypothesis (no disproof reached but science doesn't call that 'proof' - because not everything can be understood).  Results are published in journals, repeated via peer review, and peer reviews are published so results can be questioned and analyzed publicly. 

Scientific theory is not the same as detective show 'theory' which tries to prove 'who done it'.

Belief is based on faith (which can be a good or bad thing).  Science is based on evidence, not someone's idea of truth.

Well stated...and a corollary to this is that many people don't actually understand the science, and because they don't understand it (they're not formally trained in chemistry or biology), they choose to believe that it's not true. 

How many of those folks would eventually change their opinion if their house was forcibly moved to sit next to a belching coal plant, oil refinery or cow facility where they can breathe methane all day long.  It's easy to ignore scientific observations and evidence when it's not on your doorstep, but happening somewhere else in the world...which must by default mean, it's not happening at all.

This is our only planet, why shit where you eat...there's ample evidence that ice caps are melting, glaciers are melting (Just look at Glacier National Park and ride your Guzzi on the Going to the Sun Road, go for a hike off Logan Pass and look at the retreating glaciers for some first hand evidence of warming).  You don't have to be a scientist to accept that there is some climate change happening.  No one is being forced to not drive combustion engines, but why pooh pooh those companies who are trying something innovative and develop renewable energy sources...if you don't want to drive a shit ugly Prius, then don't, but then get out of the way of folks who are trying to be innovative and figure out new ways of powering the world/energy grids/transportation and other requirements we have as humans to be able to live healthy lives.

[rocker59]

We really need to stay out of the politics.  No one is going to solve anything here on Wildguzzi.  And, there are political forums under every rock on the interwebs.

If simply discussing hybrid and electric autos means we have to spiral into Climate and Environmental Politics, then the path of the Moderators and and Administrators is clear:  Nuke and Pave.  And maybe even ban.

 

[Lannis]

There is a fellow here that has a 70ish VW beetle with an electric motor and a bunch of lead acid bats where the back seat was.
He told me the motor was a starter motor for a big Russian radial AC engine.  100 hp on 24 volts.(he runs it on 12 v).yippee
Rumor has it that it will out drag anything on the station.

Sounds like the Henney Kilowatt of about 1963.   A Renault Dauphine filled up with lead-acid batteries.   About the same performance and range as most electric cars today; we had a family gas Dauphine at the time and thought it was a cool idea ....

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

Naturally, since we're talking about this, an ad popped up for the Bolt EV. I clicked on it because I *assume* WG gets "something" for clicks on ads.. and saw a Chevy with 238 miles range per charge. All of a sudden, that is a practical electric for us. I didn't even know about this one.
It's coming..

[rocker59]

Naturally, since we're talking about this, an ad popped up for the Bolt EV. I clicked on it because I *assume* WG gets "something" for clicks on ads.. and saw a Chevy with 238 miles range per charge. All of a sudden, that is a practical electric for us. I didn't even know about this one.
It's coming..

An electric econobox for $36k ???

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/chevrolet/bolt

http://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev

Seriously guys, electric has a long way to go before it will be adopted by the masses.

For $36K, a person can pay cash for a used 9mpg truck like I own and have enough cash left to drive it 100,000 miles !

And WOW!, if you spent $18k on a used 40mpg gasser econobox (Civic, Corolla?) and spent the remaining $18k for gas over the next 350,000 miles !!!

[Tusayan]

Few people will spend their money to buy electric cars until they and their infrastructure do almost everything that buyer wants to do, range for occasional trips (and back) included. The market for limited capability shopping & commuting cars is not that great, regardless of how often the missing capability is needed, especially when monthly fuel cost is not a big issue for most new car buyers. An exception may be niche markets (for example Scandinavia & hydropower) where the energy security issue may promote punitive tax policy on other options.

I think people don't typically select a car based on what they normally do, they buy on what they need to do occasionally. That's why most cars have four or six seats and are mostly driven solo. Also, risk management for anybody involves considering both the chance of it happening and the consequences of it happening. The consequences of running out of energy in a electric car are relatively high, which in my view means people tend to use no more than 2/3 of the available energy per day, or maybe half depending on their risk tolerance. BMW recognized this in supplying a small IC engine for get home risk reduction in their electric car, but that increases complexity and maintenance cost.

Some people think a mass market for electric cars can be created purely on the basis of costly fashion, presumably because they think costly fashion rules the world.  I have a word for people like that. The word is victim.

[rocker59]

Few people will spend their money to buy electric cars until they and their infrastructure do almost everything that buyer wants to do, 

Gasoline and Diesel very quickly replaced Horses and Steam in the 1st half of the 20th Century.

Gasoline and Diesel powered automobiles, trucks, tractors, and locomotives were affordable to buy, cheap to maintain, and more powerful and efficient to operate. 

One day, electric automobiles will get there.  But they will have to provide clear economic benefits to the users before that will happen.   

[Chuck in Indiana]

But they will have to provide clear economic benefits to the users before that will happen.   

I said, "It's coming." I didn't say it was here. 

[Tusayan]

One day, electric automobiles will get there.  But they will have to provide clear economic benefits to the users before that will happen.

Which was precisely my point, assuming we accept that one day they will get there both in terms of doing the entire job required by a new car buyer, and doing it at equal or lower cost.  That is what put gasoline cars quickly onto the map.