Buyers remorse?

[Motormike]

Lot's of various opinions here on BMW's  vs. the rest. I'll throw mine out for whatever good it might do.  I'll post here because I can't stand the Koolaid drinkers on any of the BMW forums.  (Your $20,000 BMW could explode into a million pieces and they'd still defend the brand.)  I always liked the looks of the old BMW "Flying Brick" K bikes, and they are pretty cheap now, so I bought a 2003 K1200GT (the Blue Whale), my first BMW, although I've test ridden many over the years (friends bikes, demos, etc.) I do like riding it.  It's fast, smooth, has elec. cruise control, and a most intoxicating intake/exhaust snarl when you twist the grip.  It's too heavy, truckish below 40 mph, and the muffler eats into the space of the left saddle-bag.  But I enjoy it anyway.  But my big complaint with ALL BMW motorcycles is the price of parts.  BMW parts prices are completely out of touch with reality.  The rear brake lever on my bike was tweaked from a tip-over, so I thought I'd replace it.  I changed my mind when I discovered BMW wanted $170 for a 6 inch piece of aluminum with a tab welded on the end of it.  I put the old one in the vice and bent it back into shape!  While my bike has been reliable, I've observed that when a BMW breaks, it breaks big.  $2000 dollar final drives, $$2500 abs units, early slant 4 K bikes with jumped timing chains trash the engine, etc.  I like many of their bikes, but you need good luck or deep pockets to own a new one.  My neighbor has a new K1600GTL, he says the two most important words for a BMW buyer are "extended warranty!"

[Sheepdog]

Mike’s comments are pretty close to what I believe is true. I have found that sealing up your shop/garage and installing climate control will keep nearly any bike in better shape (especially electrical components). It helps your tools last longer, too.

[Gliderjohn]

From Lannis:

He said "Do you really think that's enough for the highway?   People are telling me that an 1100 like mine is too small for the highway and I need something bigger."

Especially after I modified my GS400, I could quite easily keep up with a stock 1200 Sporty. Use to drive some
H-D rider nuts when they would try to pull away from me and I would always be right there. Get on something with a bit of curves and it was bye bye.
GliderJohn 

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^ True. I gave a friend a bad time the last time we met. He and his wife took a trip to the west coast from Indiana on their old Guzzis, and both had electrical failures. Alternator on one, and coil on the other. Ended up coming home on a U Haul that they could ill afford. He was saying it was just bad luck, and I was saying it was just bad maintenance. <shrug> He's replaced the alternator rotor and the coil, but hasn't fixed the cause of the originals failing. He didn't want to hear that, but it's true..
When I was an engineering modelmaker for GM, I worked closely with the test lab. Wiring harnesses got to spend 40 hours in the salt spray booth. (high pressure air blowing salt water from different directions.)
From looking at them, *no* Guzzi harness that I've seen would pass that one, not to mention 80s harnesses.
If a guy isn't willing to take apart these connections, clean them up, shoot a little de oxit on them every 2 or 3 years.. I will guarantee some bad luck unless you live in the desert.
So. Yes, climate control in the shed will help, too. 

[Numbercruncher]

is that clutchless gear shift assist like a pushbutton or paddle thing? do you shift with the lever? is it full time or can you turn it on/off?

I had that on a 2016 BMW R1200GS and it was pretty cool.  There is a mechanism that connects to the shift lever that actuates the clutch on your behalf.  First gear you start like normal.  But for 2nd through 6th you are encouraged to accelerate briskly and to shift without using the clutch or backing off the throttle.  It works extremely well.  Now I never used it from 1st to 2nd but but 2nd through 6th I used it quite a bit.

If you wanted to shift your bike like normal you could do so and ignore the feature and since I have more than one bike and the other bike has a traditional gear box, I would often just ride the 1200 like a normal bike.  But once you got the hang of it, the shifts were super smooth and not having to clutch was kind of nice but having said that, I'd never go with a DCT or full auto bike.

I did a fly and ride in March of 2016 from Washington State to Florida and rode the bike home.  I had never test ridden the bike but figured it would be what I wanted.  I also knew for certain I did NOT want any of the other bikes in that segment.  I hadn't really considered the Stelvio at that time however.  After putting 5,000 miles on the bike in less than a  month I made it home to Washington State at the end of that month.  It was my first overnight trip on a bike EVER and I had a great time even if I hurried home a little too quickly.  I then took this same bike to Alaska and within four months had put 12,000 flawless miles on that bike.  I had no real world complaints save for one and that led to the sale of the bike this past summer.  I miss the bike's trickery and electronic sophistication as I could appreciate all those features.  And when you are spending $22k on a bike it better have something to justify the high price.  My only other complaint was not a practical one but I'll offer the forks looked awfully flimsy on such a big heavy bike.  Now I know that tele lever front suspension is pretty robust but seeing the tops of those spindly top tubes compared to the inverted fork on an MX bike made me at least THINK they would break at any time.

While I liked the look and low center of gravity of the boxer engine, I could not put my feet forward on highway pegs as the cylinder heads got in the way.  Yeah I could rest my legs on top of them but then my legs were angled to steep and that led to other issues.  The fact that I suffer from leg cramps (google inner thigh cramp if you want to learn about intense pain and on a bike they'll send you to the ground) had me convinced I had to sell the bike and source something else.  I hope to pick up a Stelvio before they are gone but can't quite commit yet.

I had nothing but compliments from folks on the bike.  While the boxer engine looked odd, it also made the bike unique.  I'll never own a bike with a 90 degree V-twin mounted transversely as they all look like Harleys.  The moto guzzi layout is also very unique looking and like the BMW boxer, allows for much easier valve maintenance.  I have to say that some of the hatred for BMW bikes probably stems from the same people who hate their cars.  They are nice cars/bikes and they are expensive and not everyone can afford one.  Envy does come into play for a lot of people whether they admit to it or not.  Yeah a lot of those bikes never see off road but that doesn't mean you hate the whole brand.  How many Jeep Wranglers ever see a Colorado Jeep trail?   Not many.  But that won't stop me from buying a Wrangler.  But I'll buy a Stelvio first . . .

NC

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'll never own a bike with a 90 degree V-twin mounted transversely as they all look like Harleys.  The moto guzzi layout is also very unique looking and like the BMW boxer, allows for much easier valve maintenance. 

So a Ducati and the Suzuki SV/DL series look like a Harley?  The v-angle of the Harley isn't 90 degrees anyway, it's 45.

[Motormike]

Ducati calls their 90 degree engine design an "L-twin."  Have you ever noticed the people that bad-mouth Harleys have never owned one, whereas the people that bad-mouth BMW's HAVE owned one.  Hmmmmm.

[oldbike54]

My perception from your posts is that you'd fit into the "old guys wedded by personal reputation and habit to BMW" segment of their market, and not the impressionable motorcycling newbie with money segment to which they seem to be making a lot of sales with 2017 bikes. No offense if that's untrue.

Do you honestly see your R1150R as being a well engineered, highly controllable motorcycle in relation to a 1997 VFR?  I'd be interested in your POV.  People ride whatever they like but personally I'd much rather ride either your VFR or paralever R80GS than an R1150 (or later BMW flat twin)

 Maybe we should not endeavor to label people we have never met . Kirby fits no mold , other than the very high mileage bug eater category who has ridden everything from flat head HD's to RC 51's,  and flown everything from Aeronica's to F15'S . Personally I have little experience with modern beemers , but have ridden a few , and every one performed damned well , OK, that
R1200 C thingie was a bit odd  , but other than that .. I do remember watching Kirby disappear down a very twisty mountain road on that R 1150 , of course he is fast on an old worn out 2 valve Guzzi , so maybe that beemer is junk 

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

I guess this type of post is common to every forum, as some just  don't "get it", sounds bitter sorta. Ha!

Maybe the poster should reevaluate his rhetoric and NOT "bad mouth" anyone's choice.

Might start a trend!

:-)

 I agree , although Harleys are kinda sucky 

 Just kidding Sickbay , if you are reading this 

 Dusty

[Tusayan]

I do remember watching Kirby disappear down a very twisty mountain road on that R 1150 , of course he is fast on an old worn out 2 valve Guzzi so maybe that beemer is junk 

I have just over 100,000 miles on my own CX100.  It's a total antique of the 20th century but goes pretty well when ridden well.  I'd prefer it on a twisty road over an R1150R.  I've ridden all vintages of BMW a lot, many days of riding them in both in the Alps and the US, including the BMW I own now, and two prior.  Those built in the last 25 years are not junk, they've just never been nearly as good they should be and never as good in comparison with their competition as their manufacturer and customer base seem to think they are.  That said, I think there are features that are junk, and should have been junked before production, like the electrically assisted brakes and poor EFI of the R1150R. Those were low quality engineering.

R1200 C thingie was a bit odd 

Yes, indeed.   I once rode an R1200C and a Honda Shadow "A.C.E." to San Francisco with a friend who needed both bikes there and could only ride one. It was a two day ride from her base.  This was 'in period', around 2001 but I remember that the Honda was just flat-out better in every regard, despite costing perhaps half as much.   The notable issues with the R12C were abrupt clutch engagement (typical for BMW oil head twins) plus too-sensitive throttle control and prodigious torque from idle, making it ridiculously hard to ride in traffic - where cruisers are supposed to excel.  Then once you were going the engine ran out of breath at very low rpm.  It also had abrupt front brake engagement, bone hard rear suspension and poor steering geometry.

A friend of mine who was sponsored to ride an R1100S as a race bike had an R12C 'stroker' crankshaft in it.  I think maybe that was the best use for anything R12C.  It blew up fairly regularly but he did in fact win races on it.

[Denis]

I've regretting buying none of the motorcycles I still have, nor my Volvo 240 wagon or the '91 Dodge diesel. I do, however, regret not having some of the cars and a couple of bikes I've had in my past.

[Arizona Wayne]

I need to ride with Kirby 1923 with a somewhat comparable bike next time in the twisties to find out how good he is there.  My CX100 was nothing compared to my modified (handling) VX800 and that was nothing compared to my stock MuZ 660 single as long as pure acceleration wasn't a factor.  My 660 is ready to go.   

[Carlo DeSantis]

Me too.  Other than the unnecessary, limited life technology which I might be able to live with if it enhanced the riding experience, what I don't like about newer BMW twins like this one is a riding experience that is actually nothing like as enjoyable as it should be.   Engine response, clutch and brake feel can only be described as clunky.  The old ones were a little clunky too, but less so, and they made up for it by being simple, light and durable - you traded one thing for another, using the wisdom that comes with experience.  The newer ones are instead clunky and complex at the same time, with no benefit, while also being expensive... and they still sell well!  My conclusion is that they sell as status symbols to well heeled but inexperienced riders who don't know any better or haven't ridden anything more refined.  With the exception of old guys wedded by personal reputation and habit to BMW, that does seem to be the buyer demographic.  Its hard for me to accept that the high $ market has become so uninformed, but I believe its the case.  Like American car buyers in the huge fin era.

That said, with respect to the market as whole I think the kids buying lightweight Japanese bikes today will learn the benefits of simplicity and compact, sporty design.

Um, in a word: NO!

Best,

Carlo

[twowheeladdict]

There are actually quite a few people who oonly keep a bike one season.  No sense hanging on to something you no longer enjoy.

[tris]

a) the only regret I have about buying the B11 is that I didn't know about sacred screws and dodgy dashes before I bought it as I now have both "features"

b) for ME the B11 is growing into the best bike I've owned so far

c) I don't lust after other bikes, but this 1200RS just got put on my lottery win pile 

[Sheepdog]

The BMW R1200R/RS has a multi plate clutch mounted on the front of the engine and a conventional USD fork. Mine has three different choices for throttle response; Rain, Road, and Dynamic. The suspension can be changed on the fly to Road or Dynamic for one-up or for two-up, or custom settings may be programmed. The CANBUS electrical system can add accessories without the need to cut existing wiring and existing switches may be programmed to operate such accessories. ABS and traction control intervention varies according to the throttle programs (it kicks in earlier on �Rain� and much later on �Dynamic�).

The throttle is really soft in �rain� mode, but instantaneous in �dynamic.� I usually ride in �Road.� The multiplate clutch is a revelation for us folks who are accustomed to single-plate dry clutches. It is smooth and linear and can be serviced with the engine in the frame. The transmission clunks a little when first going into first on 2014 through 2016 models, but a transmission output damper has eliminated that small imperfection on 2017/18 bikes. Unlike recent K-Bikes, the LC models have had no problems with rear-drives. In fact, the only problems encountered on the new LC models is with the Telelever front suspension on the GS models.

The RS is not perfect, however. BMW has already issued a recall...to add reflectors to the side cases.

[Kev m]

I don't think there is anyway you can make a fair judgment on a moto by just swapping off with someone your riding with. You go from a machine that you are  comfortable riding with confidence to one that is un familiar and probably feels strange. Not even close to a fair comparison.

Motos are like Horses, you have to develop a relationship with them, get to know them before you can make a valid judgment.

So many people base their judgments on what they have herd or a brief encounter, not from experience.

In some ways I absolutely agree with this - because personally it takes me a good 10k miles to REALLY get to know a bike.

In other ways I disagree with this - because I don't need a long term relationship to know a lot about a bike from the moment I pull away on it. I might not know how I'll feel about it in 10k miles yet, but I know if I want to take the relationship further or not and why.

[Kev m]

I'd suggest swapping back and forth between a 2002 SV650 (68 HP and 365 lbs) and a 2002 R1150R (72 HP and 524 lbs) and then asking yourself which one had the more inspired engineering team.   Be careful not to get over excited on the SV, even with its vastly greater cornering clearance and more direct, responsive handling, you can still get into trouble!      There no issue in my mind in saying that a used, cheaply purchased R1150 or R1200 can fulfill the role of a mule and do it reasonably well, but to me they are hardly an expression of engineering brilliance in comparison with other bikes nor all that much fun to ride.

I think a lot of people think engineering (with regards to motor vehicles) must always mean best performer on a track.

But as I understand engineering the whole point is to solve problems/fulfill needs, and most motorcyclists have far more needs than just track day capability.

So the target can move considerably based on the design purpose.

[Tusayan]

Unlike recent K-Bikes, the LC models have had no problems with rear-drives. In fact, the only problems encountered on the new LC models is with the Telelever front suspension on the GS models.

Yes, the GS frames are breaking in service, which resulted in BMW instructing dealers to stop sales. I don't know if they've recalled and fixed the fleet yet, but obviously it's a big deal.

When returning a water boxer to rental company at the factory owned dealer in Munich, one which was making top end noise so loud you could hear it a block away, I stood there as one of those in our group told the manager about the problem and said he'd better come and check out the bike. The answer was 'OK, I don't need to hear it, it's the sixth so far". Then one of the service managers was asked if it was a common problem and he replied "it might be" with a smile.

[Kev m]

About this bonding to bikes... For me I find that I bond much  more with the second hand bikes that I bought. I've had a string of new bikes but somehow they all gave me the feeling that I am just keeping it nice for the next owner, that they were not really mine (even though they were all paid for, not on a payment plan).

With a new bike you first have the boring break in miles. Then there is all the caution of getting scratches on it, you need to treat it more carefully. Plus there is the warranty, good to have but also preventative of doing your own wrenching.

I'm exactly the opposite. I can't stand used bikes. Every scratch or nick I find is like sleeping with Angelina Jolie in 2004 and realizing there's no way you can ever wash off the BBT (Billy Bob Thorton) factor.

I'll take new thanks...

[Kev m]

Ducati calls their 90 degree engine design an "L-twin."

I always laugh at people who use that moniker. I'll call a Duc an L twin when the front/lower cylinder has half the stroke of the upper cylinder. 

[Kev m]

Well to refine my comment on "develop a relationship...

Swapping off for a short ride(under 100 miles say) is like going on a date..generally after one(or a couple) you can decide if its something you want to peruse long term, but way too little to form an opinion as to the "character" of the person.

:-)

OK, but you know whether or not you want to sleep with her or would prefer her sister, cousin, or best friend by that point.     

[Tusayan]

I always laugh at people who use that moniker. I'll call a Duc an L twin when the front/lower cylinder has half the stroke of the upper cylinder. 

The L-twin terminology was created by Fabio Taglioni, who came up with the engine and frame layout associated with 1970-on Ducati twins.  That doesn't make it less or more accurate, but it's not a term created by marketing people amd I think Taglioni deserved to call his long lived idea whatever he liked.

[Sheepdog]

Yes, the GS frames are breaking in service, which resulted in BMW instructing dealers to stop sales. I don't know if they've recalled and fixed the fleet yet, but obviously it's a big deal.

When returning a water boxer to rental company at the factory owned dealer in Munich, one which was making top end noise so loud you could hear it a block away, I stood there as one of those in our group told the manager about the problem and said he'd better come and check out the bike. The answer was 'OK, I don't need to hear it, it's the sixth so far". Then one of the service managers was asked if it was a common problem and he replied "it might be" with a smile.

The frames on the GS are okay. It’s the fork stanchion connection to the triple clamp that has caused trouble. Also, your story about top end noise sounds pretty anecdotal. Especially with “rental” being the operative word. BMW’s do create a racket if the engine is revved while the bike is in gear (on the center stand). This is caused by ABS intervention when the wheels spin at different speeds...

[Tusayan]

The issue I mentioned results from top end failure, is very loud at all times, and has nothing to do with the normal mechanically noisy character of the engine and driveline.  The rental bike was picked up new from the Munich dealer, and seems to occur rapidly on a new engine if its going to occur - this bike had about 2,500 miles on it when returned.  The dealer is factory owned and operated, and the bike was ridden by a guy who is quite familiar with the water cooled GS - he has an identical one at home as well as two other BMWs, an HP2 and an old R100RS. 

The fork is part of the frame, yes they break, and yes it resulted in BMW halting sales of the GS while a solution could be developed.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2017/07/25/2014-2017-bmw-r-1200-gs-recall-14626-motorcycles-affected/

[Kev m]

The L-twin terminology was created by Fabio Taglioni, who came up with the engine and frame layout associated with 1970-on Ducati twins.  That doesn't make it less or more accurate, but it's not a term created by marketing people amd I think Taglioni deserved to call his long lived idea whatever he liked.

Nah, it's not accurate. Engineers should be more precise than marketing people.

Of course he CAN call it whatever HE wants.

You can call a duck a horse, but that doesn't make it one.

[Sheepdog]

It sorta looks like an “L,” but only from the right side...

[Kev m]

It sorta looks like an �L,� but only from the right side...

Nope, I can't think of a major font where the horizontal line of the L is as long as the vertical.

Though interestingly enough the timing belt covers on that one make it look like the angle is even MORE than 90°, though that's either an illusion or a variance of heads and valve train component locations.

[Tusayan]

Ducati 2V cam belts are driven by a common shaft, between the cylinders. The cam belt covers are therefore at greater than 90 degrees for a ninety degree v-twin.

[Sheepdog]

Kev:
What about the “Basic Square 7” font?

http://www.1001fonts.com/basic-square-7-font.html#character-map