Author Topic: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm  (Read 9960 times)

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2018, 02:16:21 PM »
Hmmm.  Could a problem with the tach cut out the ignition?

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2018, 03:40:43 PM »
Well, I've learned a *lot* today.  :smiley:
I've learned my old high dollar timing light will make a fine anchor for a very small boat.
I've learned how this system really works. I only had a nodding acquaintance before.
I've learned how to use KRs light setup on relays to see that they are working normally. They are. Thanks.
I've learned how to test about everything at the computer connection, thanks again to KR.  :thumb:
By doing all these tests, it was pretty much narrowed down to the timing sensor. Ahem.. I've been there.
I've learned that I am a dumba$$.  :rolleyes: again.
What's wrong with this picture?
2018-03-26_04-12-17 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I don't know what I was thinking. The o ring should go on after the shims. Duh. At least it wouldn't have leaked.  :smiley:
Drug out my dial calipers and measured .090" for the gap. I haven't looked it up yet, but from memory back in the day when I was trying to get the Centauro to run, it seemed like the gap was more like .030". I'm guessing as the sensor was counting the missing tooth, it could still do it at low speed, but lost it's ju ju at higher rpm. At least that's what the chook is telling me.

Oh. I'm going to hook up the PC again. Here's my thought on this. The Mighty Scura is fairly highly modified, and has no doubt been tuned on a dyno with the PC. It runs very well indeed. What's my chance of a generic map working as well?
(1) Slim.
(2) None.
It's beer o'clock. I'll reinstall everything tomorrow (properly) and give it another go. Thanks to all that have chimed in. I really do appreciate it.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2018, 03:50:35 PM »
Bravo!

Don't you love it when a plan comes together!

:-)

I certainly do.  :smiley: Of course, I shouldn't count my chooks before they are hatched. Tomorrow will tell the tale for sure.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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kirby1923

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2018, 03:55:09 PM »
I certainly do.  :smiley: Of course, I shouldn't count my chooks before they are hatched. Tomorrow will tell the tale for sure.


 :thumb:

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2018, 03:55:09 PM »

twowings

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2018, 04:06:38 PM »
Glad you found it, Chuck! Gives rank amateurs like me hope for enlightment yet... :grin:

Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2018, 04:12:02 PM »
What's wrong with this picture?
2018-03-26_04-12-17 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I don't know what I was thinking. The o ring should go on after the shims. Duh. At least it wouldn't have leaked.  :smiley:
Drug out my dial calipers and measured .090" for the gap. I haven't looked it up yet, but from memory back in the day when I was trying to get the Centauro to run, it seemed like the gap was more like .030". I'm guessing as the sensor was counting the missing tooth, it could still do it at low speed, but lost it's ju ju at higher rpm. At least that's what the chook is telling me.

There is a 'countersink' in the block for the oring to sit in. The oring sits in the block first, right? Then the shims, then the pickup.

Looks like you have a pretty thick shim there. Didn't we shim the Centauro to about .012"?

A poorly shimmed reluctance sensor should be more likely to fail at low RPM. But you never know.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:18:32 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2018, 04:28:12 PM »
All those sensors seem to leak oil, I have started to suspect it leaks thru the middle and drips out the wires not around the outside, I wonder what would happen if you sealed the tip with silicon

I cant seem to get a sensible reading with my caliper but then I'm no machinist. I put a small blob of JBQuick on the tip, bolt it in so it squishes between tip and timing wheel, let it set then take it out and measure the JB thickness, it's not that critical 0.6 - 1.2mm correction RinkRat II says 0.7 - 0.9
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 05:47:48 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2018, 04:30:08 PM »


 , could the gap have gotten larger when you put in the RTV? sensor can read pulse at lower rpm but not when it spins up? 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2018, 04:38:36 PM »
Attaboy, Brad..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Online RinkRat II

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2018, 05:09:18 PM »

    Yessir Chuck,
        Manual sez  0.7-0.9mm   .027"- .035".  They will run with considerably less, but run much better when you find the shim on the floor and put it back in.
   I'll just leave it at that :evil:

             Paul B :boozing:
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pete roper

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2018, 05:14:09 PM »
Looks like you found it Chuck. :wink:

Can you get a measuring tool in to get a depth measurement to the teeth of the phonic wheel? Even that is a bit hit and miss. Might be time to just pop the timing chest and do it properly, use a gasket from a Breva/Griso 1100 they're coated steel and a lot less likely to leak.

As for the PCIII? Despite my loathing for them and the fact they are now technologically redundant the thing is the Scura RC is, as you noted, quite highly modified and the PC was obviously installed and tuned by someone who actually knew what they were doing! That being the case unless you want to build a map for it yourself or can find someone with the neccessary Tunerpro skills and equipment to do it for you I'd just hook it up again as that thing goes like an angry rhino with a spear up its blurter! Why mess with a good thing!?

Pete

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2018, 05:47:02 PM »
All those sensors seem to leak oil, I have started to suspect it leaks thru the middle and drips out the wires not around the outside,

Many that I have looked at, the plastic is cracked.
You degrease it really well, and warm it with a heat gun, and oil oozes out of a crack or three. The cracks bypass the o-ring. About what you are saying. It doesn't help that the o-ring gets rock hard from the heat.

So I degrease them really well. Rub RTV all over them
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2018, 05:54:34 PM »
Many that I have looked at, the plastic is cracked.
You degrease it really well, and warm it with a heat gun, and oil oozes out of a crack or three. The cracks bypass the o-ring. About what you are saying. It doesn't help that the o-ring gets rock hard from the heat.

So I degrease them really well. Rub RTV all over them
That's good to know, I suspected it must be leaking through the sensor.
BTW the gap should be 0.7 to 0.9 the larger gap I quoted came from an earlier model with just a few targets
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2018, 06:00:02 PM »
Looks like you found it Chuck. :wink:

Can you get a measuring tool in to get a depth measurement to the teeth of the phonic wheel? Even that is a bit hit and miss. Might be time to just pop the timing chest and do it properly, use a gasket from a Breva/Griso 1100 they're coated steel and a lot less likely to leak.

As for the PCIII? Despite my loathing for them and the fact they are now technologically redundant the thing is the Scura RC is, as you noted, quite highly modified and the PC was obviously installed and tuned by someone who actually knew what they were doing! That being the case unless you want to build a map for it yourself or can find someone with the neccessary Tunerpro skills and equipment to do it for you I'd just hook it up again as that thing goes like an angry rhino with a spear up its blurter! Why mess with a good thing!?

Pete

That was my thought, too.. oh maybe not *quite* so eloquently.. but the thought was there.  :smiley:
Yeah, I can measure it within .005" without much difficulty. Plenty close enough.
Let's not put the cart before the horse, though. If it doesn't run tomorrow, I'll be at a loss. Again.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2018, 06:02:36 PM »
That's good to know, I suspected it must be leaking through the sensor.
BTW the gap should be 0.7 to 0.9 the larger gap I quoted came from an earlier model with just a few targets

Thanks again.  :thumb: .0275 to .0354. Looks like my long term memory is still ok.  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline John A

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2018, 07:46:18 PM »
If that doesn't work , might as well part it out. Dibs on the heads  :evil:
John
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Offline handyandy

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2018, 09:00:38 PM »
I love my old carbs.

Online Wayne Orwig

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« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 09:16:00 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Offline Tusayan

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2018, 10:46:38 PM »
I love my new carbs  :grin:  The last bikes built with Japanese carbs remain better than EFI bikes, better to ride, easier to maintain over time.  The only issue is that they have to be run every couple of weeks with crappy modern fuel.

I find it very unlikely that I'll ever buy a bike made after 2005, which given the availability of nice used bikes requires little effort.  The Italian open loop EFI bikes like this V11 Sport are tolerable to maintain, I have three of those although I prefer quality Japanese carbs, but anything after 2005 is an unappealing no-go zone for me, particularly from Europe where pointless technological complexity became a 21st century trend.  My other six bikes were all built over fifteen years ago, all have carbs, and that's probably the way it'll stay.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 11:17:54 PM by Tusayan »

pete roper

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2018, 06:22:35 AM »
Well done you!

Offline Lannis

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2018, 09:01:35 AM »

A well tuned modern carb (especially CV type) is far superior across the board for power and economy.

Just my .02c

I believe it.   When I was living in Colorado and riding this bike:





around the Rockies, we rode one day from Lone Tree (5900 feet) to the top of Mt Evans (14,200 feet) two up (400 pound payload), and that PC800 with the CV carbs was pulling us out of uphill hairpins at the top of the mountain just as hard as it was at home.   I was amazed, I was expecting to push it the last few thousand feet (well ....).

CV carbs are wonderful metering devices.

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2018, 09:32:39 AM »
It's the difference between analog and digital music reproduction. I've never ridden an injected bike that wasn't at least a little harsh feeling, for want of a better description.
Oh, btw, the chook told me to quit shooting myself in the foot. It's running fine again.  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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oldbike54

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2018, 09:50:55 AM »
 ^^^  :thumb:
 Good deal , that foul running Scura problem was interfering with you answering my stupid questions  :laugh:

 Dusty

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2018, 11:45:12 AM »
It's the difference between analog and digital music reproduction. I've never ridden an injected bike that wasn't at least a little harsh feeling, for want of a better description.
Oh, btw, the chook told me to quit shooting myself in the foot. It's running fine again.  :smiley:

Yes, if you ride a 1980's BMW K-Bike with analog EFI it rides much like a carburated bike, very smooth throttle response.  When BMW went to Motronic digital EFI in 1990, the jerky throttle response was awful by comparison and 28 years of development and increased complexity still hasn't made the digital EFI systems ride better than good carbs.  I think the best riding digital EFI systems were the milder touring '90s Ducatis using open loop, chipped systems e.g. ST2 etc.  Those were easily tuneable without disabling exhaust sensors sensors etc and the driveability advantages of desmo valve timing made the smoothness of the EFI response a bit less critical.

Glad to hear the V11 Sport is fixed!

Offline Muzz

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2018, 02:48:36 PM »
.
Oh, btw, the chook told me to quit shooting myself in the foot. It's running fine again.  :smiley:

Told ya the Mystic Dance of the Rubber Chicken would work. :thumb: :grin:

Well done Chuck and those who were able to work it out.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2018, 03:00:25 PM »
Told ya the Mystic Dance of the Rubber Chicken would work. :thumb: :grin:

Well done Chuck and those who were able to work it out.

It took a little extra time because you told me to go the wrong way around. This chook came from Texas..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline lucian

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2018, 08:03:40 PM »
Nice work all. Thanks Chuck for taking the time to share the lessons learned. Now if I can just remember them!   

Offline Muzz

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2018, 10:49:36 PM »
It took a little extra time because you told me to go the wrong way around. This chook came from Texas..  :smiley:

My bad. Thought it was Austrian. :evil:
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Suddenly dying at 2000 rpm
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2018, 02:42:21 PM »
Well, looky here what showed up in the mail. John, who doesn't post here, saw this thread and sent it to me. It's a rectangular section sealing ring for the timing sensor.
Thanks, John..  :thumb:
2018-03-30_03-35-59 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

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