Stelvio down......the $5k estimate.

[pete roper]

Definitely not. While I was surprised that one tooth didn't cause carnage any more than that and it's definitely going to have some serious collision action going on.

Pete

[Utrider]

OK, some time back we established that if the cam timing was off one tooth on one cylinder it wouldn't bend a valve but the motor runs into a brick wall at 5,500/6,000 rpm.

Now as stated previously if the flinger plate isn't installed correctly the locator peg that times the cam can escape and over time the sprocket can start to move. While unlikely that this would occur on both cylinders it isn't out of the question and here we have an engine that pushes no compression on one side, (Unless the piston has a hole in it almost has to be bent valves.) and the other that is pulling higher cranking poundage, perhaps because the timing is retarding.

While the influx of dirt is definitely not a good thing I think it may be a bit of a red herring in terms of the compression problems which I suspect have a deeper and more obvious cause. Do the flow test on the heads. A well sealing valve shouldn't show any leakage in the form of dampness around the valve head when petrol is poured into the port for at least five seconds. My guess is on the side with zero compression it will just pour straight out of the bent valves.

Pete

Ok, well I think you are on to it as well.  I took the bike up to the only guy I know around here who has much experience with the guts of Guzzi's.  Doug Easton up in Evanston Wyoming, he has been the person with whom I've been speaking too around here.  He no longer works on bikes professionally, but is up to his elbows in personal projects (about 50 bikes is his estimate).  He thinks the exact same thing. After he inspected the cylinder and the piston (no valve contact, to be seen) he had me bring the head in, and he did the petrol leak test, just as you had described. No leak, nothing, zero, zilch, nada.  He wants me to pull the cylinder studs, pull the piston and bring him the head, cylinder and piston to see where it's getting by.  He thinks while it is down, having the heads and valves tore down and redone makes sense, and whatever we find with the piston assy in the cylinder will determine the course of action I take.
He wonders, as you did if the dealer really didn't want to deal with it and warranty the work, so they gave me some crazy high number, so they could justify tearing the whole thing down and rebuilding it.  He is very dubious of the compression readings and wonders about them.

Now, in the world's craziest coincidence I have come across a salvaged 2015 Norge, with less than 8k miles.  It went down on the right side, NO engine damage, the left fork is bent pretty good, and it has roughed up the right side pannier as well as the fairing.  I am going to bid on it, and in a worst case scenario harvest the engine from it.  I believe I will be able to pick it up very inexpensively.  I think I can use the wheels on my Stelvio, even though they are 17's if I have to slide the forks up the triple trees a little bit no big deal.  As near as I can tell the bike was bought from Moto International (license plate frame) but who really knows.  I can't imagine there will be a whole lot of action bidding on a Guzzi, and if I can get it for what I think I can, and I do need the engine...........I will be miles ahead of the game!  And, it's 30 miles away!

[pete roper]

Easiest thing to do if that is the case is just swap the entire motive unit, engine, clutch, alternator and gearbox, into your Stelvio. Only issue I can think of is they might not of drilled and threaded all the holes for the foot peg/control mounts in the Norge case, (We had to do a bit of farting about with this when sticking the 1400 in my Stelvio.) but that's easy enough to fix.

If you decide to wreck the rest of it out please let me know as there are several parts I'd be interested in purchasing for projects.

Pete

PS with no obvious damage to piston or valves I too suspect the compression readings are BS. Maybe they didn't have a suitable gauge? Maybe they don't know how to do a compression test? Maybe they are just feckless dropkicks? Who knows?

[guzzisteve]

Go bigger--https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-MOTO-GUZZI-CALIFORNIA-ENGINE/183585849467?hash=item2abe91c07b:g:QpIAAOSwG1JcEsAD&vxp=mtr

[pete roper]

Go bigger--https://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-MOTO-GUZZI-CALIFORNIA-ENGINE/183585849467?hash=item2abe91c07b:g:QpIAAOSwG1JcEsAD&vxp=mtr

I'd advise against it Steve. There is a lot involved in converting to a 1400. It's a long way from a simple drop-in.

Pete

[guzzisteve]

I would think just twin output coils from a 2V and mapping.

[pete roper]

Nah, cooling circuit is completely different and the ports on the 1400 are tiny. You either swap to 1200 single spark heads and modify the cooling circuits to take advantage of the better breathing and 50mm throttle bodies or you'd have to swap to the single 52mm TB and plenum system and use the 7SM, loom, RBW, canbus etc. from the 1400.

I've chosen the former on the two 1400's we've built. Just sticking a 1400 into a CARC bike and bolting up the manifolds would result in huge steps in the inlet tracts and would create huge reversion problems that would turn it into a mapping nightmare!

1400 intake port.



1200 intake port.



There's no comparison really.

Also if you try and use the 1400 gearbox, (Something I'd like to try due to it having a face cam shock absorber in the input shaft that the 1200's never had. The 1100's did and then it was deleted on the 1200's only to return on the 1400's. Probably because there is no bonded rubber cush in the 1400 driveshaft.) it won't fit as it has gear position indicator mechanism hanging out the back like a pair of dog's balls! Why they even needed one I have no idea? If the W5AM is smart enough to know what gear a CARC bike is in why in the name of all that is holy would you bother using a mechanical detector on a bike using the infinitely cleverer 7SM??? It makes no sense!

Pete

[guzzisteve]

I remember now, you can't cram all that air/fuel into the 14 heads.

[beetle]

I remember now, you can't cram all that air/fuel into the 14 heads.

That's why all these idiots running 1400+ cc motors  with 1400 heads claiming 160 HP should be treated as the ignorant scum sucking arsehats that they are!

[pete roper]

The 1400 porting would seem to be aimed at improving Cylinder fill at lower RPM which is what probably explains the great bottom end the Cali's have but that, and the cross sectional area issue of the TB choke are unfortunately limiting factors of what you can achieve at higher rpm. Note that other important factors like valve size and cam profile are identical on all the 8V motors. Smaller ports aren't necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Pete

[Utrider]

Well I won the auction for the 2015 Norge!  It has 7751 miles on it, and is 30 miles away!

Pete, I am going to take your advice and just swap the whole lump over (engine, trans, starter and alternator).  There will be some parts available let me know what you want (if you want to pm me that's fine, you have 1st dibs) I will be able to make you a smokin' deal, but I may call on you for some pointers on doing the swap.

One thing I am wondering, is should I swap the throttle bodies over?  Is that an issue with the computers and what not?  I have no problem keeping mine and would think it's one less complication to deal with.

The seat, gauges, CARC is all in good shape.  I am going to use the wheelset for my roadgoing adventures so those won't be available.





I may not get to it for a few months, as this is going into my busy season (tax services) and the weather here is cold. I have a place to store it, and it will be out of the elements.

[pyoungbl]

Congratulations!  That motive lump will certainly solve your problems and you'll have some tasty spare bits too.

Peter Y.

[smdl]

Great score with the Norge!

I'd recommend leaving the throttle bodies in place as it makes the swap simpler.  Different root problem, but I'd also suggest reading through my "Horrors in My Bellhousing" thread for a few pointers:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77036.0

Be prepared -- getting the engine out of a Stelvio is not easy as the frame wraps around under the gearbox right near the output shaft.  However, it is possible, if you are patient, and there are a couple of tricks that can be employed to gain some extra wiggle room.  These make all the difference, and the job becomes much simpler.

Keep us posted on progress.  I'll be happy to help with advice and encouragement.   

Cheers,
Shaun

[pete roper]

Well I won the auction for the 2015 Norge!  It has 7751 miles on it, and is 30 miles away!

Pete, I am going to take your advice and just swap the whole lump over (engine, trans, starter and alternator).  There will be some parts available let me know what you want (if you want to pm me that's fine, you have 1st dibs) I will be able to make you a smokin' deal, but I may call on you for some pointers on doing the swap.

One thing I am wondering, is should I swap the throttle bodies over?  Is that an issue with the computers and what not?  I have no problem keeping mine and would think it's one less complication to deal with.

The seat, gauges, CARC is all in good shape.  I am going to use the wheelset for my roadgoing adventures so those won't be available.





I may not get to it for a few months, as this is going into my busy season (tax services) and the weather here is cold. I have a place to store it, and it will be out of the elements.

Before you embark on the engine swap route are you sure that this failure was mechanical in origin? I mean we've already got several people, myself included, who are dubious about the compression test figures. Then there's the fact that both the valves and the piston on the 'Dead' side don't show any really untoward damage. It would be a real kick in the nuts to do a motive unit swap and still have a motor that only runs on one cylinder!

Before you go any further I strongly suggest you run all the diagnostic tests with Guzzidiag. Make sure the coil is firing. Make sure the injector is pulsing. Getting the Norge wreck is a great back up plan, (Especially if it was cheap!) but swapping a motive unit in a Stelvio is no small task and right now I'm still not convinced it is either necessary or the 'Silver Bullet' required.

Pete

[stubbie]

Just read about a BMW that this happened to. Running fine one day not the next, no compression etc. Turned out one of the timing chain tensioners had broken off and was at the bottom of the cover. So the timing was off on the crankshaft.

[pete roper]

While not impossible I'd have to say that the likelihood of that on a 1200-8V is very, very unlikely.

Pete

[Frenchfrog]

Good score Uterider!

[grebmrof]

I recall reading a review of the Stelvio on YouTube and the owner reported a faulty airbox that let dirt into the engine via an opening in the back.  Wonder if you had the same issue with yours?
Tim

This may be the YouTube video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAgBZSJFNA   Sorry of someone else mentioned this earlier, I didn't spot it when rereading this thread.

[Utrider]

Ok I have began the swap over on this.  The "heart and lungs" have been harvested from the donor Norge and are sitting on the garage floor.




The Stelvio is on the rack.  I pulled the airbox, and looky there.  The top has separated from the bottom of the box!!!  To be honest I'm somewhat relieved that it wasn't something I had much control over.

[smdl]

Interesting!  Great to have an explanation...

Cheers,
Shaun

[Utrider]

So, I have wrestled the broken engine out.


Now, while I have access to all of this inner goodness what else do I need to address?

[Ncdan]

There’s a good chance that sometime in the future as time goes by that you could find one that has been totaled and could get it cheap and use the motor???

[pete roper]

Dan? I think that's exactly what he's doing with the Norge.

[Utrider]

Pete, just out of curiosity........as king for a friend.  Would there be any benefit to bypassing the breather box and associated tubes?  Like running them into a filter of some sort. I will replace all the upper hoses while I'm here.  Just curious if there would be any advantages, I have no problem running all of the breather apparatus. 

I cleaned out the throttle bodies this morning, a can and a half of carb cleaner. 

Would there be any difference between the Norge intake manifolds and the Stelvio?

[pete roper]

A fair bit of oil goes through the condenser system. Running without it will be messy and, in a short time, destructive.

[Utrider]

It's ALIVE!!!

Tomorrow I will do a TBS, and let Guzzidiag work some of its magic.

Thanks to all for the support!

I have a thousand mile trip across the remotest part of Nevada planned
for this weekend. I will do a couple of hundred miles of shakedown around
here and if all goes well off to Mammoth Mountain I go!  2 stroke race
with Jerminy McGarff on a KX 500......

[smdl]

Congratulations!  Well done!

Cheers,
Shaun

[stubbie]

Well done Roy. Good luck on your trip.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Excellent. Way to hang in there..  Attaboy. 

[Dave Swanson]

Great recovery and focus on getting er done!