Author Topic: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners  (Read 554103 times)

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #360 on: February 23, 2015, 02:57:03 PM »
I can't see the lambda data? Do you have a log I can look at?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #361 on: February 23, 2015, 04:10:30 PM »
But I still have a problem with my Lambda sensor. As You can see I have constant voltage of 0.2V. The same is in GuzziDiag.
After a 10km ride my engine reach constant temp of 117°C and even once during this ride Lambda haven't turned on.
I've checked my map and it is a stock map. Both my lambdas are on.
No DTC. Everything is working like it should.
????

If engine is warm, and running 3 minutes, at idle, you should be able to see the lambda regulation value change and after that the integrator should work too.  It should be not to cold, the air temp is leading, at least 20 degree's C and engine over 30 C
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Offline sknapp351

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #362 on: February 23, 2015, 06:21:16 PM »
On a 2000 Jackal, what should the TPS readings be? I've found the readings for a meter, but not sure what degrees I should be expecting. Also, should I be reading it with the linkage connected or disconnected, engine running or no? Thanks!

Sam


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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #363 on: February 23, 2015, 07:21:46 PM »
On a 2000 Jackal, what should the TPS readings be? I've found the readings for a meter, but not sure what degrees I should be expecting. Also, should I be reading it with the linkage connected or disconnected, engine running or no? Thanks!

Jackal, 15M, 3.6 degrees +-0.3. With or without the linkage since it should be resting on the idle stop at the throttle body. Engine running should only make it fluctuate some. Air screws 1/2 turn.
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #363 on: February 23, 2015, 07:21:46 PM »

Offline sknapp351

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #364 on: February 23, 2015, 07:42:55 PM »
Thank you!  Hopefully, I will be able to check mine out this weekend and see if I can find the problem.

Sam


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Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #365 on: February 24, 2015, 12:04:12 AM »
If engine is warm, and running 3 minutes, at idle, you should be able to see the lambda regulation value change and after that the integrator should work too.  It should be not to cold, the air temp is leading, at least 20 degree's C and engine over 30 C

So maybe that is the problem. I worm up the engine but the the air temperature was always 13°C. My lambda showing constant 0.2V in GuzziDiag and in ScanM5X. Stelvio have this value changing between 0 and 0.2V. On every video on youtube until air temp rich 20°C lambda regulation not working. I will test that.

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #366 on: February 24, 2015, 04:51:46 PM »
when it's to cold, I just take the sensor out and between my fingers, at the moment it reaches 20C, lambda regulation started working
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #367 on: February 26, 2015, 04:03:12 PM »
Ok I will check that tomorrow.
I've got one more question. Did You ever tried a map from Griso 8V in your Stelvio? Did it improve the power and torque?
Comparing those two maps an obvious thing can be noticed. Griso gets much more fuel. I've compared also the engine parts. Intake air duct is different but rest of it appears to be the same.
So where are those horses from Griso? Is it possible that this is just a different map?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #368 on: February 26, 2015, 04:27:18 PM »
Ok I will check that tomorrow.
I've got one more question. Did You ever tried a map from Griso 8V in your Stelvio? Did it improve the power and torque?
Comparing those two maps an obvious thing can be noticed. Griso gets much more fuel. I've compared also the engine parts. Intake air duct is different but rest of it appears to be the same.
So where are those horses from Griso? Is it possible that this is just a different map?


I'm driving a griso based map for more than a year.   But only one lambda stelvios qualify for that, so the small tank ones.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #369 on: February 26, 2015, 05:08:04 PM »
It's not as simple as "more fuel".  The intake and exhaust is different which affects what you can do.
Yes, the engines are exactly the same, but as Paul says, a map from one lambda bike won't run in a two lambda bike.

Offline Xlratr

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #370 on: March 01, 2015, 11:13:17 AM »
Yes, the engines are exactly the same, but as Paul says, a map from one lambda bike won't run in a two lambda bike.

But it IS possible to copy the values from some of the tables in a 1 Lambda map and paste them into a 2 Lambda map. e.g.  main fuel or ignition.


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Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #371 on: March 01, 2015, 11:52:58 AM »
This is not a problem problem for me since I've got a single Lambda system in my 2011 stelvio.
Actually I don't need more power. But some extra torque around 3000RPM would make a huge difference.
The same situation I've had with my BMW. I added a Power Commander to gain some torque in the middle. Huge difference. Max power and torque haven't changed.
So I will probably add a LC-2 set and emulate two different lambda settings and connect them trough the switch to the 5AM to maintain desired AFR. I know that the Lambda input in 5AM is differential but there won't be a problem with that.
Two quick questions.
1. Is it posible to connect negative lambda 5AM input to GND without burning anything?
2. If not, what a negative value of potential will be between negative Lambda connector and GND? Or it won't be at all?
Anyone have any information about that?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #372 on: March 01, 2015, 12:09:01 PM »
But it IS possible to copy the values from some of the tables in a 1 Lambda map and paste them into a 2 Lambda map. e.g.  main fuel or ignition.


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Yes that is possible, but the tps values are different so what you copy from one table, doesn't fit the tps values in the other, so yes it will start, but you certainly get different running
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #373 on: March 01, 2015, 12:11:45 PM »
This is not a problem problem for me since I've got a single Lambda system in my 2011 stelvio.
Actually I don't need more power. But some extra torque around 3000RPM would make a huge difference.
The same situation I've had with my BMW. I added a Power Commander to gain some torque in the middle. Huge difference. Max power and torque haven't changed.
So I will probably add a LC-2 set and emulate two different lambda settings and connect them trough the switch to the 5AM to maintain desired AFR. I know that the Lambda input in 5AM is differential but there won't be a problem with that.
Two quick questions.
1. Is it posible to connect negative lambda 5AM input to GND without burning anything?
2. If not, what a negative value of potential will be between negative Lambda connector and GND? Or it won't be at all?
Anyone have any information about that?


It is possible to connect the lc2 to the lambda input, I have a lm1 working this way.
But don't rely on lambda tuning, by changing lambda value.
Better switch of lambda and get a better map.
Paul

Daytona 1225, Stelvio 1151





Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #374 on: March 01, 2015, 12:36:19 PM »
It is possible to connect the lc2 to the lambda input, I have a lm1 working this way.
But don't rely on lambda tuning, by changing lambda value.
Better switch of lambda and get a better map.

I know that Guzzi is totally different than BMW. But there, I firstly tune the PC to desire AFR to set the optimum value and than I played with the map. Since map is being used only when ECU is in open loop so it will be when you accelerating or decelerating significantly. Than values from the map should be relevant.
I've set my BMW in way, that when I riding steady and than open throttle on max at around 3000rpm my AFR is constant at 13.7:1. Without any jumps up and down on acceleration and deceleration.
It is not an optimum value. Bike is running the best on 13:1 but than it consume a lot of fuel during cruising.
Using LC-2 would let me switch (by external circuit) between first and second output to choose designed AFR.
Pauldaytona how did you connect those LC-2 outputs to 5AM?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #375 on: March 01, 2015, 04:04:48 PM »
I know that Guzzi is totally different than BMW. But there, I firstly tune the PC to desire AFR to set the optimum value and than I played with the map. Since map is being used only when ECU is in open loop so it will be when you accelerating or decelerating significantly. Than values from the map should be relevant.
I've set my BMW in way, that when I riding steady and than open throttle on max at around 3000rpm my AFR is constant at 13.7:1. Without any jumps up and down on acceleration and deceleration.
It is not an optimum value. Bike is running the best on 13:1 but than it consume a lot of fuel during cruising.
Using LC-2 would let me switch (by external circuit) between first and second output to choose designed AFR.
Pauldaytona how did you connect those LC-2 outputs to 5AM?

I have a wire(analog out from lc-1) on pin 1 of the lambda plug on the bike.

The ecu works different as you think. It has a main fuel map and main ignition map. On these maps are correction maps, like temperature. But also the lambda corrects that main map. But only as you drive constant and not to fast.  And the correction value it has, accumulates over time as a correction on the whole fuel map.  You can reset that with the autolearning parameter.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:08:27 PM by pauldaytona »
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #376 on: March 02, 2015, 02:54:17 PM »
I have a wire(analog out from lc-1) on pin 1 of the lambda plug on the bike.

The ecu works different as you think. It has a main fuel map and main ignition map. On these maps are correction maps, like temperature. But also the lambda corrects that main map. But only as you drive constant and not to fast.  And the correction value it has, accumulates over time as a correction on the whole fuel map.  You can reset that with the autolearning parameter.


Did You disconnect your Lambda sensor totally or just pin 1 or 1 and 2? I think ECU has a heater detection and maybe also the sensing detection.

Every ECU is different. I will figure out how to tune this one primarily.

Did You made a change in any of delta maps? Those values should not be changed since they are related with the intake and exhaust properties. And in the same time they should be changed when new exhaust where installed.

But I was thinking about something else. In most of the modern motorcycle an exhaust valve is mounted. Like EXAP. I helps to keep a good low RPM torque, max power at the high RPM.
It is widely explained in the Internet. So I'm wander what is the angle when intake and exhaust valves are open simultaneously? Is this engine is tuned for low RPM torque or maybe for max power? I think for more power since max torque and power are almost in the same rpms.
So maybe and extra back pressure will add some torque in the low-midle rpm. Did any one tried to block one of the exhaust outlets and made a dyno run?

Vasco DG

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #377 on: March 02, 2015, 03:34:34 PM »
The cylinder head design, included valve angle, and long valve overlap are things that most people overlook. I prefer not to use the term 'Back Pressure' as this is principally a harmonic phenomenon but more actual physical resistance to flow in the exhaust has been proven to improve VE and therefore the torque of the motor when compared to the 'Open' systems beloved by Noisy Morons and many 'Conventional' tuners.

Beetle's experience clearly backs this up as his bike and mine are virtually identical apart from the fact he now has an Arrow Ti exhaust system that eschews the 'Pretzel' in the Griso's exhaust. His bike has lost low end torque and midrange but has gained at higher engine speeds. The 'Pretzel' adds considerable resistance to gas flow, as does the extra length of the Mistral Hi-Pipe we both use, with its dB killer installed.

The results are obviously a matter of choice but I much prefer the great bottom end and midrange torque my machine displays to the rather pointless quest for greater maximum horsepower. I believe that Mark is also searching for someone to replicate the original 'Pretzel' in Ti to regain the lost bottom end oomph.

Experimentation with the dB killer removed delivered an engine that *Felt* more powerful but probably wasn't. What it was was considerably harsher and more vibratory and the charge transition issues resulted in lower VE and higher fuel consumption. The sole 'Benefit' really being more noise. Since I for one hate noisy motorbikes it was a 'Benefit' I'm happy to live without!

Pete

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #378 on: March 02, 2015, 03:59:40 PM »
Did You disconnect your Lambda sensor totally or just pin 1 or 1 and 2? I think ECU has a heater detection and maybe also the sensing detection.

Every ECU is different. I will figure out how to tune this one primarily.

Did You made a change in any of delta maps? Those values should not be changed since they are related with the intake and exhaust properties. And in the same time they should be changed when new exhaust where installed.


Lambda sensor is out. But I know someone has used it instead of the lambda with lc-2. The sensing detection senses if values change, they will if they get lc-2 input.
I'm aware of the delta map working.
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

190 Octane

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #379 on: March 02, 2015, 04:10:44 PM »
I've downloaded Guzzidiag plus the reader and writer and tunerpro.  I still need to buy the cable.

I'm in the middle of an engine swap and I'm looking to flash my Cali Stone ecu with a V11 map.

Does anyone know where I can get a V11 map?

I have a H-pipe, Mistrals, and an open airbox, so a map for those or similar mods would be a plus. 

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #380 on: March 02, 2015, 05:18:10 PM »
Sigh.

You don't want back pressure. Back pressure is bad.  At lower rpm's you need go keep the exhaust velocity high to maximize torque. That's how EXUP systems work. They don't increase back pressure, they increase gas velocity.  The higher the gas velocity, the better scavenging. The less power the engine uses to push the exhaust gas out, the more power goes to the rear wheel.

Adding a restrictor to the exhaust will completely mess up the fueling. You will need to change the main map, ignition and delta fuel. It's a waste of time and an exercise in futility.

Guzzi have tuned these engines for a good overall performance on the road. It's not designed as a torque monster to pull down small buildings or a power monster to race RSV4's. It's a compromise.

If you want maximum torque, design an exhaust that is longer and sized correctly. Or build an EXUP system for it.

And yes, there is current sensing in the ECU for the lambda probe.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 05:19:01 PM by beetle »

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #381 on: March 02, 2015, 05:21:06 PM »
Does anyone know where I can get a V11 map?

I have a H-pipe, Mistrals, and an open airbox, so a map for those or similar mods would be a plus. 


I can send you a stock V11 map. I don't have anything for those mods though.

190 Octane

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #382 on: March 02, 2015, 09:38:42 PM »

I can send you a stock V11 map. I don't have anything for those mods though.

I'll PM you my email address.  A stock V11 map has to be a better start than the stock Stone map.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #383 on: March 08, 2015, 04:02:24 PM »
Sigh.

You don't want back pressure. Back pressure is bad.  At lower rpm's you need go keep the exhaust velocity high to maximize torque. That's how EXUP systems work. They don't increase back pressure, they increase gas velocity.  The higher the gas velocity, the better scavenging. The less power the engine uses to push the exhaust gas out, the more power goes to the rear wheel.

Adding a restrictor to the exhaust will completely mess up the fueling. You will need to change the main map, ignition and delta fuel. It's a waste of time and an exercise in futility.

Guzzi have tuned these engines for a good overall performance on the road. It's not designed as a torque monster to pull down small buildings or a power monster to race RSV4's. It's a compromise.

If you want maximum torque, design an exhaust that is longer and sized correctly. Or build an EXUP system for it.

And yes, there is current sensing in the ECU for the lambda probe.


What is a diameter of the exhaust pipes in breva 1100? Stelvio have 58-59mm. But it has only 49mm when it gets to the triple joiner. So when we're talking about the higher gas velocity the 49mm pipes would do the increase gas velocity. I'm just thinking at loud.

Chris

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #384 on: March 08, 2015, 04:46:00 PM »
The headers are double-walled, so the actual diameter is ~49mm.

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #385 on: March 08, 2015, 05:23:02 PM »
I didn't know that. Good to know. Thanks!!

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #386 on: April 12, 2015, 11:36:34 AM »
Hi,
I was finally able to fire up the new season. So the tunning has started.
And I already have few questions.
I was analyzing the single and double lambda stelvio's map. I use a XDF from a GuzziDiag web page (V1.29) and Tuner PRO build 5.00.8519.00.
When the double lambda stelvio's map was loaded (double lambda XDF) I've noticed that the Ignition ADV map was corrupted. At the first glance everything was ok but the values of 65 degree was... to big for me. Differences between single and double lambda system was about 15 deg. Every other map was ok. So I use a different program. ECM Edit & Custom Map. And there everything was ok. There ware just a minor differences between between single and double lambda system.

Yes that is possible, but the tps values are different so what you copy from one table, doesn't fit the tps values in the other, so yes it will start, but you certainly get different running

I spend several hours on the single and double lambda system maps to make a copy of a double lambda system map to single lambda system maps. The most significant difference is the TPS Value map. So I had to interpolate the points of the TPS which I didn't have. Annoying procedure... But I was finally able to compare the single and double lambda system maps and I thing the double lambda system maps should be better (I'm comparing a stock maps only). In that way I manage to made a true double lambda system map for single lambda system maps. I haven't put it on the bike yet but I will do it just after I install the LC-2.
For now I'm running the stock map with lambda turned off. Very reach mixture. Fuel consumption.... well.. I'm not going to talk about it. But the drivability is great. Smooth as butter.


It is possible to connect the lc2 to the lambda input, I have a lm1 working this way.
But don't rely on lambda tuning, by changing lambda value.
Better switch of lambda and get a better map.


How to connect the LC-2 to a differential ECU input without errors? How to fool the ECU to not showing error when heater will be disconnected? (dummy load only?)

Best regards,
Chris

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #387 on: April 12, 2015, 06:42:11 PM »
I was analyzing the single and double lambda stelvio's map. I use a XDF from a GuzziDiag web page (V1.29) and Tuner PRO build 5.00.8519.00.
When the double lambda stelvio's map was loaded (double lambda XDF) I've noticed that the Ignition ADV map was corrupted. At the first glance everything was ok but the values of 65 degree was... to big for me. Differences between single and double lambda system was about 15 deg. Every other map was ok. So I use a different program. ECM Edit & Custom Map. And there everything was ok. There ware just a minor differences between between single and double lambda system.


The 1-lambda maps and 2-lambda maps require different XDF's. The data offsets are completely different between the two types of map.
 


Quote
How to connect the LC-2 to a differential ECU input without errors? How to fool the ECU to not showing error when heater will be disconnected? (dummy load only?)


If you are only trying to log AFR, then turn lambda off in the map. If you are trying to use a wideband sensor to trim via simulated narrowband output, you need a dummy load, as the ECU has current sensing.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 06:42:42 PM by beetle »

Wacholek

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #388 on: April 13, 2015, 12:08:22 AM »

The 1-lambda maps and 2-lambda maps require different XDF's. The data offsets are completely different between the two types of map.

I'm aware of that.
Examples from TunerPro
Single lambda system


Double lambda system


Double lambda system from ECM


I belie that there is a misinterpretation somewhere in the XDF file for double lambda system.

This is the stelvio STA42Z map (single lambda) in compare to the 3222ST02_CM227005 map ( double lambda) which was rewritten to match the TPS from single lambda system. As as source of the Ignition ADV 3222ST02_CM227005 map I used ECM.
As You probably already noticed the double lambda system map is very alike the one from the single system with the different region where the adv decreases. In other words, adv down-slope appears with smaller TPS angle compared to the STA42Z map.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 12:25:08 AM by Wacholek »

kris

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #389 on: April 13, 2015, 06:59:42 PM »
Stupid question, how do I know if I should download the 5AM software or the 15AM?  I have a 2014 Norge and and patiently waiting for my cables and a few other items to show up before "digging in".  I'm also going to sync the throttle bodies but haven't found much info(none in the downloaded shop manual)!  Thanks, Kris

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