Author Topic: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners  (Read 554113 times)

kris

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #450 on: May 26, 2015, 06:30:29 PM »
Kris, are you CERTAIN that your valves are set, accurately, to 6 thou inlet and 8 thou exhaust? Are you CERTAIN that your throttle bodies are balanced correctly? When you uploaded the map did you.

a.)Reset the TPS.

b.)Reset the self learning parameters.

c.)Start with the CO trim at zero.

In every single case where there has been a problem with a 'Map' that I have encountered the problem has either been the tune and set up of the bike or one of the above listed features not being taken into account or performed correctly.

As I've said before a different map us not a 'Magic Bullet'. If there is an underlying problem with the tune and set-up of the bike re-mapping it won't fix that. The 8V is very, very sensitive to changes to tune and set up.

Pete

Yes to all of the above, I sync the throttle bodies while the bike is under load by taping my Twinmax to the tank and running at different rpm's, stop, adjust, re-check and adjust again until it's as close as humanly possible to perfect.  My first service is coming up(I know,it's taking me awhile to get there, too much work)!  I'll re-check and adjust as needed then and will try the map again.
Yes, I know there is no "magic bullet" fix, every bike has it's own personality, but I sure appreciate the efforts you guys are making!

Vasco DG

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #451 on: May 26, 2015, 06:40:03 PM »
What map did you send him Pete?  I've only sent the very latest map to two peeps on this forum (nikwax & smdl). As far as I know, the only other guy using it is in Australia.

It most definitely should not be running so rich at idle that it's causing fumes that bad. Something is wrong.

Dunno off hand, I'll have to dig back through the archive which might be a bit difficult from WA!

Ping him the latest and see if it improves things but my guess is that the valves are out and/or the self learners aren't zeroed. Remember how badly my thing stank when the valves were 2 thou out! Smelt like it had a dead possum under the seat!

Pete

kris

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #452 on: May 26, 2015, 06:40:56 PM »
What map did you send him Pete?  I've only sent the very latest map to two peeps on this forum (nikwax & smdl). As far as I know, the only other guy using it is in Australia.

It most definitely should not be running so rich at idle that it's causing fumes that bad. Something is wrong.


This is the map <Norge1200-8V-FU2-7286.2015.05.01.bin>

Offline smdl

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #453 on: May 26, 2015, 06:42:57 PM »
What map did you send him Pete?  I've only sent the very latest map to two peeps on this forum (nikwax & smdl). As far as I know, the only other guy using it is in Australia.

It most definitely should not be running so rich at idle that it's causing fumes that bad. Something is wrong.

Hi, Mark.

Is the Norge 8V the same map as the Stelvio?  You sent me the Norge 2V map, and the Stelvio 8V map, both of which work well.  I think the Stelvio could still use some work at idle (as discussed before), and it feels little soft immediately off idle, but not much to complain about,  It's worlds better than the original map, and I don't notice strong fumes at idle.

If there is anything I can do to help further the refinement of the existing map, please let me know.

Thanks again for all your efforts on our behalf!

Cheers,
Shaun
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 06:44:03 PM by smdl »
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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #453 on: May 26, 2015, 06:42:57 PM »

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #454 on: May 26, 2015, 06:50:31 PM »
Sorry Shaun, I realised my mistake after I posted. I fixed it. There are two others on the forum with this map. No, the Stelvio maps are different.

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #455 on: May 26, 2015, 06:54:17 PM »
This is the map <Norge1200-8V-FU2-7286.2015.05.01.bin>

That's the latest.

Offline POP0404

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #456 on: May 26, 2015, 07:07:33 PM »
Probably about time I put my 2 cents worth, as I suspect my bike is the "other Norge in Australia".

I updated my 2011 Norge about 3 weeks ago with the map supplied by Pete and Mark. Before the changes the Norge was running rough, snatchy throttle, and a distinct hesitation through the revs.

I adjusted the valves to 6 and 8 thou, balanced the throttles, reset the TPS, reset the learning parameters, and set the CO trim. On first long run the idle was a little low and lumpy, Mark suggested resetting the C0 trim to 0. The bike now runs great. It pulls evenly through all revs, no snatchyness in the throttle, but is a little sensitive, less vibration through the revs, particularly around the 3000 RPM mark.

For me the new map is a great improvement over where my bike was running previously.

Both Mark and Pete were very helpful throughout the process.

POP0404

Vasco DG

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #457 on: May 26, 2015, 07:18:24 PM »
Yes to all of the above, I sync the throttle bodies while the bike is under load by taping my Twinmax to the tank and running at different rpm's, stop, adjust, re-check and adjust again until it's as close as humanly possible to perfect.  My first service is coming up(I know,it's taking me awhile to get there, too much work)!  I'll re-check and adjust as needed then and will try the map again.
Yes, I know there is no "magic bullet" fix, every bike has it's own personality, but I sure appreciate the efforts you guys are making!

So have the valve clearances ever been checked? If not chances are they will all be wide and all over the place which will certainly add to the rich condition if that is what it is. Once the Lamda is off as it is in Mark's maps then the ECU will no longer trim around discrepancies. Even tiny changes to valve clearance make significant differences to valve lift and duration which in turn effect how much air the engine will pump. Since fuel delivery depends on the air quantity at any given throttle angle matching what the ECU assumes is being passed at that point if the clearances are too large less air will be being pumped so the AFR will drop making the mixture overly rich.

More so than any other engine I've worked with the Guzzi 8V is incredibly sensitive to this. While I'm not certain why it is so critical I'm convinced it is another aspect that can be attributed to the combustion chamber shape and side draught head design which makes issues like charge transition much more noticeable and explains why messing about with both exhausts and airboxes requires considerably more thought and attention to detail than many give it. It's the reason, or one of the major ones, why Mark has so many Griso maps, many tailored to individual pipe arrangements and why we strongly advise against screwing with the airbox and air filter. With the exception of flat tappet 1200 Sports and I think the 8V Norge all the 8V 1200's use the same cam profiles, (From memory. There may be one other exception but I'm pretty certain it's only those two.) the engines are all the same, but differences to airboxes and most importantly exhausts, even minor ones, can have quite a radical effect on how the engine pumps and performs.

For these reasons it is vital that EVERYTHING be spot on if you want to use an open loop map, even the factory one with the lamda off, or it's going to run like a munter.

Pete

kris

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #458 on: May 26, 2015, 07:39:58 PM »
Thanks Pete for all of your very informative responses.  Yes, the valves have been checked and will be checked again soon along with another throttle body sync.
Two of the valves(intake) were a bit loose so I tightened them to the correct spec, otherwise the rest were in good order. 
After I service the bike I'll give the map another try, maybe it just needed a little more run in time.
Overall, the bike runs well except for the snatchy throttle and I think some or all of that may be attributed to having quite a bit of play in the driveline, however your map did seem to help with this.
I'm looking forward to giving it another go!

Vasco DG

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #459 on: May 26, 2015, 08:17:28 PM »
With the throttle snatchiness? Have you taken as much free play out of the throttle cables as possible with out causing the engine to race when you turn the bars from lock to lock.

Pete

kris

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #460 on: May 26, 2015, 08:23:52 PM »
Yes, there is no play in the throttle cables at all.

Offline smdl

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #461 on: May 26, 2015, 08:24:57 PM »
Sorry Shaun, I realised my mistake after I posted. I fixed it. There are two others on the forum with this map. No, the Stelvio maps are different.

No problem at all!  Just wanted to be sure I hadn't misunderstood.

Thanks, Mark.

Shaun
'74 Eldorado Civilian
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Offline Xlratr

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GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #462 on: May 27, 2015, 02:16:13 AM »
.....but differences to airboxes and most importantly exhausts, even minor ones, can have quite a radical effect on how the engine pumps and performs.

This is very true! Even small changes make a difference. I recently made up a new DB Killer for the Zard exhaust on my Stelvio (the original was a bit too quiet for me, and completely without isn't nice). Even though you wouldn't think the change was so significant, it took me a day of adjusting to get the map sweet again. So I now have three different maps for various exhaust configurations.

On the right is the original (slightly cut down), and on the left is my fabricated one.



John
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Offline BigBlock

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #463 on: May 27, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
Hey Beetle, Pete. What is the difference between Norge 1200-8V FU2-6963.2014.08.21 and the Norge1200-8V-FU2-7286.2015.05.01 maps.  I'm running the 6963 map. The bike seams to run fine except the odd morning start (stumbles a bit, then idles fine), nothing I'm worried about.  I haven't been keeping up with the latest as you can see.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 03:56:34 PM by BigBlock »
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beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #464 on: May 27, 2015, 06:52:55 PM »
BB,

Different warm-up table, different pressure-air temp table, different fuel-engine temp table, modifed rev-limit-input-gear table.

Starts better warm and cold. Fuels better. You can fang it to redline in all gears accept 1st (8000 rpm limit).

Vasco DG

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #465 on: May 27, 2015, 08:02:18 PM »
This is very true! Even small changes make a difference. I recently made up a new DB Killer for the Zard exhaust on my Stelvio (the original was a bit too quiet for me, and completely without isn't nice).

 ;D Strangely enough, even though I know people won't believe me, I don't just pull these ideas out of my arse! They are based on factual knowledge and years of research. The stuff Mark has discovered while developing maps is fascinating and has given us an even better insight as to how things work.

Do I, or anyone else know or understand everything about how things work? No of course not. But at least our approach is scientific rather than just bleating the accepted wisdom that all you have to do with a modern engine is throw more fuel and air at it because it's been *Strangled* by those nasty men in gubmint,

Pete

canuguzzi

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #466 on: May 28, 2015, 09:55:01 AM »
Hey Beetle, Pete. What is the difference between Norge 1200-8V FU2-6963.2014.08.21 and the Norge1200-8V-FU2-7286.2015.05.01 maps.  I'm running the 6963 map. The bike seams to run fine except the odd morning start (stumbles a bit, then idles fine), nothing I'm worried about.  I haven't been keeping up with the latest as you can see.

The answer is Norge 1200-8V-FU2-3230.0009.68.0   ;)

Sorry, not had coffee yet.

Same boat here but mine is slightly later than yours but things run ok. Just an very once in a while a stumble at idle that makes me want to blip the throttle but it evens out. Quite rare so I didn't even pay attention to it until you mentioned yours.

Finally got a Bluetooth dongle for Guzzidiag so I can run the output to my Android tablet mounted up front and maybe start logging.

I'm running Norge1200-8V-FU2-5D14.2014.09.14
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:04:57 AM by Norge Pilot »

Offline BigBlock

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #467 on: May 28, 2015, 12:40:09 PM »
Beetle, PM'd you
2012 GT 8V Norge
2001 V11 Sport
2014 KTM 1290 Super Duke

"Illegitimi non carborundum"

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #468 on: May 28, 2015, 05:28:46 PM »
I'll send the latest map to all the Norge owners I have email addresses for. I was waiting for more feedback, but the cat is out of the bag now.

Offline JeffOlson

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #469 on: May 29, 2015, 01:04:31 AM »
Thanks, Mark, for all your hard work!
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #470 on: June 03, 2015, 01:53:00 PM »
is there a place where folks swap maps? was looking for a map for my CalVin, stock airbox, stock mufflers, harpers H pipe.
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #471 on: June 03, 2015, 03:49:10 PM »
is there a place where folks swap maps? was looking for a map for my CalVin, stock airbox, stock mufflers, harpers H pipe.

We have no such place. We send files that we have on request.
What is not good with the calvin now in it's running?
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #472 on: June 03, 2015, 05:09:46 PM »
PM sent.

Online lazlokovacs

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #473 on: June 04, 2015, 05:05:57 AM »
is there a place where folks swap maps? was looking for a map for my CalVin, stock airbox, stock mufflers, harpers H pipe.


I've been developing a map that seems to be a great improvement over stock for the calvin... pm me and I'll send it to you.

(already sent it to Kiwi Dave, who said he liked it, so maybe he's already sharing it with you?)

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #474 on: June 04, 2015, 07:47:33 AM »
Modified CO trim adjustment.

Offline mtiberio

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #475 on: June 04, 2015, 08:25:53 AM »

I've been developing a map that seems to be a great improvement over stock for the calvin... pm me and I'll send it to you.

(already sent it to Kiwi Dave, who said he liked it, so maybe he's already sharing it with you?)

he sent: Av11sportecumildert imingchangesWITHCLE MBASTIDAtemperature adjustmentchangedLO WFUELLINGBACKTOSTOC KAND4KRICHENEDUPoff setmapfromcalicopie d.bin

that it?
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Online lazlokovacs

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #476 on: June 04, 2015, 12:50:26 PM »
he sent: Av11sportecumildert imingchangesWITHCLE MBASTIDAtemperature adjustmentchangedLO WFUELLINGBACKTOSTOC KAND4KRICHENEDUPoff setmapfromcalicopie d.bin

that it?

yes it is....

though I have a slightly updated one since then as well... I'd be pleased to know how you get on with it should you choose to try it...

beetle

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #477 on: June 04, 2015, 04:31:59 PM »
Av11sportecumildertimingchangesWITHCLEMBASTIDAtemperatureadjustmentchangedLOWFUELLINGBACKTOSTOCKAND4KRICHENEDUPoffsetmapfromcalicopied.bin


Crikey, that's a mouthful!   :laugh:

lenz9753

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #478 on: June 09, 2015, 06:44:10 AM »
Hey Beetle - your initial recommendation of the Lonelec cable kit for the job is still the most reliable ? My 2010 Griso 8V with Termi muffler urgently needs the fuelling cleaned up. If you have a map that is suitable I would be very grateful.

Offline NMPete

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Re: GuzziDiag HowTo - A tutorial for beginners
« Reply #479 on: June 09, 2015, 12:49:38 PM »
Hi - I just got a 98 MG Centauro and it is running "poorly".  I would like to do the GuzziDiag thing.  It has a standard 3 pin type connector (same as my friend's V11) at the ECU and the GuzziDiag lists the V10 Centauro.
However, it has an M16 ECU (smaller than the 8 and bigger than the 15).

Will the procedure and listed connectors, etc outlined for the M15 work for the M16?

Thanks
NMPete  :azn:

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