Clack on startup

[Waltr]

Just changed oil and filter before a trip.  My Norge has 9,600 miles and even though the motor oil only had 2K on it I like to start out with fresh.  Since the first service I have been using Liqui Moly racing 4T 10W60 along with a combination of UNI and Purolator filters.  I used a UNI filter this time with Redline 10W60 ester based synthetic.  This Redline oil not specific motorcycle oil I did not think that was a big deal since no unit construction or wet clutch. On a couple of occasions now there is a brief split second clatter on start up both from a cold start and hot start.  This is my first encounter with this and wonder if anyone has had problems with redline oil or do you think it could be a filter that is not holding oil pressure and allowing oil to drain back. 

[Vasco DG]

Flat or roller tappets?

Pete

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Can you tell if the clack is upper cylinder, or lower in the block?
  Starter motor?
   Buy or borrow a mechanics stethoscope to at least find the location of the clack.

[Waltr]

Roller tappets.   Not starter.  Did not consider rod or main bearings but it sounds more top end.  Just went out and tried one thing, bike cold ond hit starter for a second and hit it again no clack and no noise at all.  

If I wanted to pop another filter on before the trip could I do that without all the oil gushing out the filter hole?

[LaMojo]

My '98 Ev did that last last week on a cold start up from sitting a few days.  Quite alarming but only lasted about a second. Runs fine.

[fotoguzzi]

If I wanted to pop another filter on before the trip could I do that without all the oil gushing out the filter hole?

park on a steep hill first.

[Waltr]

So I guess if I pull the filter on a full sump I will get most of the sump drained at the same time? 

[JoeW]

I had that happen on my Cali a couple years ago. I had used Castrol high mileage oil and a UNI filter. The oil light stayed on and there was a clatter on hot restarts. My guess is the filter was draining back. I changed the oil and filter and used regular Castrol oil and never had the problem again. My oil salesman said the high mileage oil has something in it to soften the seals. I wonder if it damaged the anti drain back flap in the filter. It could have just been a defective part.

[Vasco DG]

One thing that may or may not be relevant a that the design, not of the cam chain tensioner itself, but how it is primed has been changed on after models.

Early 8V's the right handcam chain tensioner plunger sits behind a something like 22mm plug and from memory has no sort of 'Bath' provided for the priming oil. One assumes it just gets primed by oil getting flung about when the engine starts. On later models there is a gallery that feeds into a chamber surrounding the plunger and its covered with a whopping great 36mm plug.

While I've never had a problem with the early type system it would seen pretty obvious that they wouldn't of changed it unless there was a reason and the only reason that makes sense is that sometimes the pensioner plunger was taking a while to prime up. If that was the case the symptom would be clacking on start up! Just ask any Aprilia V4 owner!

Next time you have the tank off have a squizz and see if your engine has a *Big* or *Small* plug on the inside of the RH cylinder casting.

Pete

[Phang]

Pete, I steal these photos from belfastguzzi.

This is the RHS tensioner of an early (2009) 8V engine, it looks like the RHS tensioner is pressure fed from oil gallery.





My late BMW oilhead left cylinder will clatter for a second during start up. Oil will drain from the tensioner when the engine is not running due to the downward pointing tensioner position, the tensioner needs a second to prime before it can press against the blade to take up the slack.

http://www.mklsportster.com/Articles/mcncct.pdf

Guzzi 8V downward pointing tensioner is on the right side because the cam chain sprockets are gear driven, spinning at the opposite direction as oppose (pun intended) to the chain driven oilhead.

My 2009 8V does not has this problem (yet), The cam chains sound taut on every first start of the day (ask me how I know a loose chain sounds like)  :)

Phang

[Waltr]

Thanks all.

[MLR]

I have a 2012 Norge with 15,000 miles on it that is doing this with increasing frequency. I would say it does it one out of six starts primarily when cold. I have even noticed it doing after idling a few minutes at a traffic light. If I raise the rpm a little it disappears  immediately. The bike runs great otherwise but I am worried about the possibility of the cam chain jumping out of time. It does have roller tappets and the valve clearance checked spot on at .006" & .008" when checked at 12,000 miles a month and a half ago.

[Vasco DG]

you aren't using a very lightweight oil are you? 10/30 or 10/40 wil certainly drain back quicker and be less efficient at priming the tensioner tha the specified 10/60

Pete

[Waltr]

  Surprised to see this post still up.  Clack has been absent for quite some time. Unusual thing is it was more prevalent with Redline 10W60 and that oil in tests has shown to have a consistant higher viscosity at all temps.  Using Lubrimoly 10W60 and Purolator Pure 1 filter all is good.  Stock filter OK also.

[jones525]

My California 1400 does this on cold start. Right cylinder. Sounds like a timing chain rattling around for a second while oil pressure comes up.

I've mentioned this to my dealer and have been assured that its not an issue. Makes me uneasy tho.

I'm using the specified 10/60 oil as well. Seems like it would be simple to swap out w/a new tensioner...

[MLR]

I have run nothing but Motul 10w60, is it unheard of for a tensioner to go bad?