Author Topic: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin  (Read 15641 times)

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« on: March 03, 2013, 02:00:33 PM »
Hi people I am after helpful advice on my clutch problem before I jump in and pull it apart.

The symptoms are that the clutch is extremely grabby. When I release the lever the clutch is pretty much either IN or OUT. There is not much room for slipping the clutch when trying to ease away from a stationary start. The bike grabs and lurches forward, stalls or you can feel the rear end rapidly rising up underneath you. As the motor gets hotter and the heat of the day increases it gets worse to the point where on an uphill start at traffic lights it is extremely difficult to get moving/almost downright impossible.

Having said that, once the bike is moving everything else if fine. It changes betweeen gears without any trouble and there is no clutch creep when stationary and the lever is held in and 1st gear is engaged. There is no clutch slip in any of the gears.

I am looking for any helpful advice before I tear into pulling the transmission to see what is going on.

Thanks
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Vasco DG

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »
Has it ever been apart? If not the hub and probably the flywheel will be notched and full of dust and mank. If the clutch is adjusted correctly and its still doing it its time to bite the bullet and pull the gearbox. Not a big job on a T3.

Pete

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 03:14:45 PM »
Thanks Pete,

I don't know the history on this bike. I've only had it since June '12.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 03:46:57 PM »
It's not too tough a job to get in to the clutch and find out what is going on. I'd say it is likely to be the flywheel..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 03:46:57 PM »

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »
Thanks Chuck,

Is it recommended that the engine is set at a particular position before disassemlying the clutch and/or the flywheel? i.e. TDC LH side or RH side.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2013, 04:05:59 PM »
Thanks Chuck,

Is it recommended that the engine is set at a particular position before disassemlying the clutch and/or the flywheel? i.e. TDC LH side or RH side.

Not as far as I know. You can always put it anywhere you want with the alternator bolt. Search for Pete's "crabbing the frame" article to see the easy way to get to it.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2013, 04:34:24 PM »
It's not too tough a job to get in to the clutch and find out what is going on. I'd say it is likely to be the flywheel..

MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 05:14:03 AM »
Thanks Photoguzzi I get the idea. I am just waiting on a bike lift to be delivered before I crab the frame. I already have the swing arm, bevel drive, starter motor, carbs, battery case, fuel tank, air filter, wiring, cables, etc. off. Not much more I can remove until I get the bike in the air.

Thanks.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 05:31:23 AM »
Thanks Photoguzzi I get the idea. I am just waiting on a bike lift to be delivered before I crab the frame. I already have the swing arm, bevel drive, starter motor, carbs, battery case, fuel tank, air filter, wiring, cables, etc. off. Not much more I can remove until I get the bike in the air.

Thanks.

You don't need a lift.. all you need is a box and a 2X4..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 01:30:18 PM »
I understand that Chuck, but unlike you I do not have a proper workshop and no-one to help me get the bike onto the box. I cannot do it by myself and the rafters in my homebuilt shed are softwood and I fear would not take the weight of the Guzzi without giving way. I think I will wait for the lift -- although there is no guarantee that will work until I have seen it and experimented a bit. Don't know how stable it will be. The other apparent advantage of the lift is that it can be wheeled about with the bike on it -- again I don't know how easy or successful that will be either moving a 500lb bike around in my small shed on 1" wheels. Hopefully everything will work out ok without any near death experiences. haha





Above: Progress so far


BTW thanks for all help offered by everyone so far.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:33:33 PM by Guzzi_Don »
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Vasco DG

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »
Don, where in Sydney are you and are you available today? I have to shoot up there and if you wish I can drop in and give you a hand. You're only about five minutes from having the box on the floor.

Pete

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 02:47:29 PM »
Hi Pete,

Oh I wish I was available. Unfortunately I have to work today. How I would have liked the Guzzi Guru to have worked on my bike. Ah well maybe next time.

I may call in and see you some time. My brother lives on the Captain's Flat Road just out of Queanbeyan. I might get you to shim the transmission for me while it is out though -- are you interested? Cost?

Thanks again Pete for the generous offer.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 03:08:38 PM »
Well I've made some more progress but am still non the wiser as to what the problem is.

The bike lift arrived and works ok. I did find though that when the front wheel was removed the bike wanted to tip off the back of the lift. A strap or two to the rafter soon fixed that though.

Took a bit to separate both parts of the frame and the gearbox was a bit stubborn too. But judicial use of a rubber mallet eventually got it to move.

The clutch hub and friction plate splines all look good to me, even if they are a bit dry and rusty looking. No wear apparent on these parts. A bit disappointing as I was hoping this would be the problem and I could replace these parts and it would be all fixed. Ah well.

Opinions welcome -- what do others think. Also it looks like it has 4mm clutch hub and fibre plates -- what do others think.

Maybe it is the intermediate plate causing the issues. Or could it be Surflex plates - I have heard that they can be a bit "grabby". Can anyone identify these plates from the pictures? Are the plates inserted the correct way round?

See pictures following of what I have found so far. The clutch hub looks marked but there are no grooves, etc when the finger nail is run along the splines. It is just visual.

















Thanks for any help offered.

BTW is it fashionable to use any lubricant on the fibre plate splines and clutch hub (very minimal of course) to prevent what mine look like.


.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 03:41:17 PM »
NICE PHOTOS!

I use a little antiseize on the teeth applied with a tooth brush.

is the intermediate plate warped? usually it's so warped it won't work at all.

MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 04:30:49 PM »
NICE PHOTOS!

I use a little antiseize on the teeth applied with a tooth brush.

is the intermediate plate warped? usually it's so warped it won't work at all.



Thanks for the tip on the antiseize. I have not removed the ring gear plate, fibre plates and intermediate plate yet. That will happen tonight hopefully. Hope I find something in there that is causing the problem, either intermediate plate or flywheel issues.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 05:20:22 PM »
I spose the PO could have put in a new clutch and left a very worn flywheel and outer splines could be so notched it's not moving in/out smoothly.. but your splines shown look great, almost like you didfn't have to go there.
what does Roper say?
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
I spose the PO could have put in a new clutch and left a very worn flywheel and outer splines could be so notched it's not moving in/out smoothly.. but your splines shown look great, almost like you didfn't have to go there.
what does Roper say?

I'm waiting on his expert opinion.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 06:17:18 PM »
Hmmm. I would have bet money that the flywheel was notched from the description you gave.. it's normally what causes the clutch action to be all or nothing. Obviously, it's not. You would thing that *something* is causing the clutch to hang up, then let go.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 06:47:28 PM »

Having said that, once the bike is moving everything else if fine. It changes betweeen gears without any trouble and there is no clutch creep when stationary and the lever is held in and 1st gear is engaged. There is no clutch slip in any of the gears.

I am looking for any helpful advice before I tear into pulling the transmission to see what is going on.

Thanks

The fact that the clutch disengages drive completely and doesn't slip, pretty much rules out notchy splines, IMHE notchy splines symptoms are always an inconsistent (dis)engagement. Creeping forward when clutch lever pulled in again after slight movement (usually negotiating traffic and scary) the classic one

They look like surflex plates to me and I personally hate them. Hated em in 80's , tried again a few years ago, took them out inside a month. No feel at all

But I recently gave them to Kev
http://www.guzzioverland.co.uk
He loves them, as do others on here. I like rivetted plates for the feel. I think you'd prefer them too.

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 06:55:22 PM »
A couple of things.

Those are Surflex  'One Size Fits Neither' plates. They haven't been in very long but you can already see that the V of the splines in the centre is beginning to round out. Piss 'em off and get some of the latest factory plates. Yes, I can supply as I can an intermediate plate if required.

Lotsa dust for a low mileage clutch, looks like the friction plates are in the right way. I'm with Chuck at the moment, my guess is that the flywheel is probably history but you won't know until you take it to bits. Taking it apart isn't hard, just unwind the ring gear bolts a turn at a time in a crosshatch pattern but DO NOT try and reassemble it without the clutch tool, (Since your hub is OK unless you want to go into the box I wouldn't disturb it.) as I said I can lend you one or a second hand hub and bolt to use for puting the clutch back together.

Since you're wanting to 'Cafe' it if the flywheel is toast you have a host of options for shedding weight when you replace it.

Pete

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2013, 08:35:17 PM »
A couple of things.

Those are Surflex  'One Size Fits Neither' plates. They haven't been in very long but you can already see that the V of the splines in the centre is beginning to round out. Piss 'em off and get some of the latest factory plates. Yes, I can supply as I can an intermediate plate if required.

Lotsa dust for a low mileage clutch, looks like the friction plates are in the right way. I'm with Chuck at the moment, my guess is that the flywheel is probably history but you won't know until you take it to bits. Taking it apart isn't hard, just unwind the ring gear bolts a turn at a time in a crosshatch pattern but DO NOT try and reassemble it without the clutch tool, (Since your hub is OK unless you want to go into the box I wouldn't disturb it.) as I said I can lend you one or a second hand hub and bolt to use for puting the clutch back together.

Since you're wanting to 'Cafe' it if the flywheel is toast you have a host of options for shedding weight when you replace it.

Pete

Thanks Pete,

I will try and get it apart tonight after work.

Pete do you know where I can get hold of a hard-anodized aluminium flywheel and do the standard parts bolt up to it or do I need a different pressure plate, ring gear, etc., and who has those?

Thanks
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2013, 08:49:25 PM »
Yup, I can do you one of those. Yes, they use all the rest of the standard componentry.

I ran one for a while in my little hot rod. It worked well. I was expecting it to wear quickly but it was in there for a long time and every time I looked at it it looked perfect. Actually seemed to wear better than the steel wheels which surprised me.

Pete

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2013, 09:10:10 PM »
Yup, I can do you one of those. Yes, they use all the rest of the standard componentry.

I ran one for a while in my little hot rod. It worked well. I was expecting it to wear quickly but it was in there for a long time and every time I looked at it it looked perfect. Actually seemed to wear better than the steel wheels which surprised me.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I will be in touch.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 09:16:35 PM »
Yup, I can do you one of those. Yes, they use all the rest of the standard componentry.

I ran one for a while in my little hot rod. It worked well. I was expecting it to wear quickly but it was in there for a long time and every time I looked at it it looked perfect. Actually seemed to wear better than the steel wheels which surprised me.

Pete

It's actually owners that wear splines fast, not material, same as clutches in general
Some people learn after first one, others keep doing it, modern "training" half the problem, they teach to sit in gear with clutch in at lights
Not difficult to see what's happening.
The difference between someone who can ride and one who RIDES

If you can hear it rattling, it is, minimise that time. Or pay.

Vasco DG

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 09:26:19 PM »
Yup, unbalanced carbs, too low an idle speed, hold the clutch in so the plates can thrash about at idle, worn splines will happen. I was just surprised at how well the alloy wheels which are anodised with some really hard treatment hold up.

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 10:20:56 PM »
Yup, unbalanced carbs, too low an idle speed, hold the clutch in so the plates can thrash about at idle, worn splines will happen. I was just surprised at how well the alloy wheels which are anodised with some really hard treatment hold up.

Pete

I run my idle low, cos I'm an engine braker (not breaker), have never worn out splines, even my orig 2mm (350,000 odd miles)hub still good only changed it cos I had one.
My flywheel well north of 500K miles

Plates rattle when clutch disengaged, nothing else is relevant. Pull lever, listen, not rocket science.

I hit neutral or kill engine if too hot to sit idling. Never sit with clutch in.

I've seen alloy flywheel killed but same man did two steel ones as well. Consumable to him
Factory idle settings were correct, sometimes you have to unfck what some "tuner" has done. 500rpm lower won't hurt, 500 rpm over will make quick changes hard, annoy other traffic, takes away engine braking etc etc. Over 1200 rpm and they're like a Convert, just keep rolling on

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 04:40:06 PM »
OK to start with thanks for all the help and information offered so far on this subject.

Pete, just to clarify I am not planning to cafe this bike particularly I am just after a smoother, easier gear change and hear that the lighter flywheel will provide this. Mind you I would not say no to round slide 36mm carbs or LM heads either if offered at a good price.

1. As I am this far into disassembly I would like suggestions on what parts (seals, bearings, etc) to replace while I am in there.

2. I pulled the clutch and flywheel last night and could not really see any problem with the flywheel, intermediate plate or pressure plate. There were some small indentations on the teeth of the flywheel but I don't see that they are pronounced enough to cause a problem with the intermediate plate sliding back and forth. The intermediate plate looks fine, not coned or anything like that. Nice and flat. Comments please? See pics below:
















3. The clutch plates are Surflex but they look "old" to me, maybe with hardened linings. See below:







4. The pressure plate, ring gear plate and clutch springs show evidence of rust. See below:










5. Is it easy enough to replace this seal with the shaft and bearing in place or best to leave it alone as there was no evidence of leaking oil previously. See below:




6. On investigation I found the pegged nut that holds the clutch hub in place was loose. Of course it was held in place by the lock washer behind it which would not allow it to undo, but there was at least 1mm to 2mm movement back and forth on the shaft. Once I tapped the lock washer tabs flat I was able to undo the nut with a pair of long nose and remove the clutch hub.

I don't think this would have caused the symptoms I was experiencing as the hub is on a spline and therefore there should have not been much movement in that area as the clutch was being released. What do you think?




7. Pete as I have the clutch hub off the input shaft all I would need now for reassembly would be the extra long 12mm bolt that will screw into the end of the crank. Can you supply me with one either on loan or to buy. Thanks.






8. Finally does anyone know what is causing my problem? Is the flywheel still serviceable? Is all I need to rectify the problem a new set of fibre clutch plates? Any other suggestions?

BTW when replacing the flywheel on the crank are there any marks to line up for correct balance?

P.S. Can someone verify for me if this is a 4mm clutch hub and clutch plates please?

Also another question: Is it possible that the thrust bearing at the rear of the transmission could be causing this problem?

.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:52:03 PM by Guzzi_Don »
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Vasco DG

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 05:19:18 PM »
Don, I'll give you a call a bit later. Gotta go to the dentist now, Ugh!

Pete

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 05:44:47 PM »
Good Luck Pete, I have to go tomorrow so feel your PAIN!!!!!
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

Offline Guzzi_Don

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Re: Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 05:53:42 PM »
Pete, I have added a couple of more comments and another picture under point 7 since you last read the thread.
Cheers

Don

1981 Moto Guzzi 850-T4
1977 Suzuki GS550/700
1991 Suzuki VX800

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