Clutch Diagnosis Needed - T3/T4 Roundfin

[Two Checks]

 :pop
Good info here!

[fotoguzzi]

again may I say YOU TAKE VERY NICE PICS!
 .Yes there is an alignment mark for mounting the FW...I'm sure Pete can set you up right so no comment needed.

[jacksonracingcomau]

The fact that the clutch disengages drive completely and doesn't slip, pretty much rules out notchy splines, IMHE notchy splines symptoms are always an inconsistent (dis)engagement. Creeping forward when clutch lever pulled in again after slight movement (usually negotiating traffic and scary) the classic one

They look like surflex plates to me and I personally hate them. Hated em in 80's , tried again a few years ago, took them out inside a month. No feel at all

But I recently gave them to Kev
http://www.guzzioverland.co.uk
He loves them, as do others on here. I like rivetted plates for the feel. I think you'd prefer them too.

I think I've already answered your last question above but rusty plate shows you are seriously gentle with clutch, mine last a long time but you do see shiny where it meets .
Possibly a bit of serious abuse would have bedded them in and removed rust without dismantling  but you'll be happier with rivetted plates IMHO

[Guzzi_Don]

I think I've already answered your last question above but rusty plate shows you are seriously gentle with clutch, mine last a long time but you do see shiny where it meets .
Possibly a bit of serious abuse would have bedded them in and removed rust without dismantling  but you'll be happier with rivetted plates IMHO

Not ignoring your advice. I was just expecting some other serious issue other than clutch plates. I've never experienced this type of trait where the clutch is either IN or OUT and nothing in between -- really dangerous in the Sydney peak hour let me tell you.

I would say this bike was inactive for long periods of time during it's 32 year life span and this is where the rust issue came from. There is evidence of it on the clutch plates, flywheel, pressure plate, intermediate plate, in fact everywhere. In fact if you look at the following picture you will see evidence of where an intermediate plate (or some other plate) has been in contact with the ring gear plate for a long period of time and left it's imprint for all to see. See picture below:



I will clean it all up as best I can before reassemblying it.

BTW I have only done a couple of thousand kms on this bike since purchasing it in June last year so know nothing of it's history.

I am still contemplating whether to go for the aluminium flywheel or not since mine is still in reasonable condition. If I could find a Le Mans one I would be happy with that.

Jackson thanks for all your advice so far. It's appreciated.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Not ignoring your advice. I was just expecting some other serious issue other than clutch plates. I've never experienced this type of trait where the clutch is either IN or OUT and nothing in between -- really dangerous in the Sydney peak hour let me tell you.


BTW I have only done a couple of thousand kms on this bike since purchasing it in June last year so know nothing of it's history.

I am still contemplating whether to go for the aluminium flywheel or not since mine is still in reasonable condition. If I could find a Le Mans one I would be happy with that.

Jackson thanks for all your advice so far. It's appreciated.

I agree with surflex plates being dangerous.

Re le mans flywheel, it's pretty negligible gain, lighten yours or buy alloy (twin plate not single) and use rivetted plates.
Only 1100Sp on are light enough as orig to make a worthwhile difference

Choive between machining yours and alloy one down to $

Never expect catastrophic failure in a Guzzi, only the timing chain is design fault, other than that most problems have been added by fools or evil salesmen / internet myths.
This thread good for others to see, was all obvious on your first post but look at replies. Excellent pics tell same story as first post. Digression went off
If ifs and buts were pots and pans
there'd be no work for tinkers
MH

[Guzzi_Don]

Re le mans flywheel, it's pretty negligible gain, lighten yours or buy alloy (twin plate not single) and use rivetted plates.
Only 100Sp on are light enough as orig to make a worthwhile difference

Choive between machining yours and alloy one down to $

Problem I have is that I can't find anyone in Sydney that will do the lightening for me, not motorcycle machinists anyway. Not sure I want to entrust it to the V8 car machinists, they probably wouldn't be interested anyway.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Problem I have is that I can't find anyone in Sydney that will do the lightening for me, not motorcycle machinists anyway. Not sure I want to entrust it to the V8 car machinists, they probably wouldn't be interested anyway.

The machine or machinist don't care where the metal is going.
A good machinist all you're after, there would be hundreds in Sydney, use google, car race specialists more than up to the job, search on here for pics of lightened one.

Unfortunately my man retired, he did loads for me, before that I had mate in UK with full CNC kit, you just threw the 3 pieces at it and came back to them finished.
100's and 100's that machine did for me. But history now. Can't even remember the company name.
Did as many LM ones as T series, all need doing IMHO

[Vasco DG]

Just a couple of pics for Don.

This is what happens to the 'Deep Spline' Surflex plates. Usually it doesn't take that long!





And one of a flywheel with a badly notched set of splines.



Pete

[JoeW]

Don, I just went through this on an 850T3 last summer. I installed a pair of new Sureflex discs with a new divider plate and 4mm hub. The clutch had no slip, just on or off and it dragged at idle. I pulled the trans 3 times trying a different new divider plate and then a good used flywheel. I finally got a new OE riveted clutch from Harper's and the problem was solved. I had used sureflex before with no problem but, I won't use them again. Also, I don't recommend antisieze for lube on the splines. I prefer Dow Corning GN paste. I've used it for years and have experienced very little spline wear. If you can't find that I know BMW has a clutch spline lube for their K bikes, I've never used it but, it's been recommended to me by mechanics I respect.

[Matt]

Sureflex clutch...been there. Replaced with stock 4mm Guzzi plates and all was well.

Clean it up, new springs and flywheel bolts along with new clutch plates and you'll be golden. Lightening flywheels is a personal matter, I leave mine heavy.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Just a couple of pics for Don.

This is what happens to the 'Deep Spline' Surflex plates. Usually it doesn't take that long!

And one of a flywheel with a badly notched set of splines.



Pete

You and I are on opposite pages, all relevant for OP and searchers


I sold and fitted Surflex plates in 80's , sadly, I admit, because they were cheap
I did eventually try some, out within the week, I recalled customers, fitted AP, at my own expense.
Just my way, apparently members can break these, I can't.
No-one chose to take them till splines wore out, I trust your picture
s
Wear in flywheel not design, just a user problem, these people need an auto box/clutch
Your picture exactly what happens.
Ask the owner if they drive a car daily, ask how many pedals it has.
No problem with handicapped people, no offence intended

[Guzzi_Don]

UPDATE: OK an update on recent developments with my clutch issue.

I have ordered new clutch springs, flywheel and ring gear bolts, and other bits and pieces from Gutsibits in the UK. They arrived yesterday.

I spent last Thursday at Bungendore with Pete Roper who did a complete overhaul on my gearbox -- and what a great job he did too. He replaced two of the bearings that were not up to scratch. One was a double race setup on the clutch shaft that happened to be one of those "you beaut plastic ones". He pulled that out with a special puller (one of the many Guzzi special tools that he has on hand) and fitted a good replacement. This plastic bearing had obviously replace the original at some time -- someone had been into this box before according to Pete. He also replaced a broken bearing on the output shaft.

Then he replaced the input and output seals.

He then shimmed the shift drum for me. I think we originally had about 0.015" play back and forth in the shift drum. Pete replaced the two .6mm shims on either end with 1mm shims (I think that was right, getting a bit senile these days, memory not so good sometimes on finer detail).

Not much to show for a rebuilt gearbox with most of the work done on the inside.








Pete replaced and tightened the special nut that holds the clutch hub in place with his rattle gun so it would not come loose on me again. I was intending to use the clutch hub to align the clutch plates prior to offering the gearbox up to the engine, but now that was not possible so Pete kindly offered to lend me some of his special tools to be able to complete that job. A flywhel and ring gear holder tool and the clutch aligning tool with the extra long bolt. For those that might be doing this task in the future the bolt and nut required ia a 12mm x 90mm x 1.5mm pitch (not easy to come by). The more common pitch sizes in 12mm bolts are 1.25mm and 1.75mm.






Pete also adjusted the pawl engagement bolt and locknut on the rear of the box to make sure all gears could be selected. Then ran the box through all the gears to check for proper selection.

Pete also supplied two new factory clutch plates for me.



New and old clutch plates for comparison.




I also dropped the flywheel of to a machinist I use in Sydney to have the outer thickness reduced frpm 12mm to 8mm - similar to the LM flywheels. He said he will try and have it done by next week. So everything is waiting on that happening before any reassembly can start.

Thanks again Pete.

P.S. You know what was the best thing about the day spent in Bungendore, it was the huge amount of information that Pete shared with me and learning how to rebuild a gearbox off an absolute expert. A great learning curve for me and the absolute willingness from Pete to share his knowledge and not hold anything back. He also allowed me to hang around after my gearbox was finished and watch him reassemble a final drive for a Califonia with all that is involved in that.

[Vasco DG]

T'was a pleasure Don.

Pete

[balvenie]

       Saw this topic for the first time today and it's a very good read ;D

[Guzzi_Don]

Well I picked up my flywheel today from my machinist ahead of time as he said it could not be done until next week. Nice surprise.

He reduced the thickness of the outside diameter from 12mm down to 8mm which is the dimension of the Le Mans flywheel. I was a bit disappointed that the total weight was only reduced by a 1lb from 9lb to 8lb. The original weight was 9lb which equates to 4kg -- which seems to be lighter than the original T3 flywheel was supposed to be which was 4.250kg. The finished weight was 8lb which is 3.6kg -- the LM flywheel weighs in at 3.3kg, so mine is a little heavier by 300g than the LM. But hopefully the lighter weight will be enough to improve the gear change action some.



I can now start reassembly hopefully.

[RedSteve]

Hi Don
I came across your post only yesterday. I have exactly the same problem on my T3 California that the previous owner had stored for 10 years. Clutch grabs in a very short space making it nigh on impossible to negotiate traffic.
Did the work you describe in this post fix your problem?
Thanks
Steve