O2 Optimizer on 2V Norge

[Jerryd]

The '08 Norge I just picked up had an O2 Optimzer with it but the switch settings were quite a bit different then what GuzziTech says? Does anyone have one on an early Norge that has worked properly and could share the settings? I have switches 1,2,& 6 up (on), all the rest off.

Thanks

Jerry

[pete roper]

Take it off immediately and throw it to the shithouse.

[pyoungbl]

I got one from Guzzitech for my '07 Norge (basically the same bike as yours).  Over the course of a 600 mile ride the Optimizer caused the bike to run so rich it fouled the O2 sensors and the bike went into limp home mode.  As Pete says, throw the damn thing in the trash.  That's what I did.

Peter Y.

[ITSec]

I can speak from experience - I had one on my 2008 Norge.

The Optimizer, used by itself, is way more of a problem than a help. While I don't have the antagonism of the two Petes towards it, you won't get much benefit and you'll end up either ignoring it or constantly fussing.

While there's some well-noted difference of opinion of the appropriate techniques and relative merit (and difficulty) of specific approaches, you will be far better served by either focusing on the current hardware and modifying the ECM programming (Guzzidiag methods) or going whole hog on the hardware approach using a PV-V and AutoTune with a wideband O2 sensor.

The O2 optimizer is a brains-free device that simply modifies the information the O2 sensor sends to the ECM, tricking it into a broad-based bias to richen the mix, regardless of load, speed, throttle position, or any other factor.

[Jerryd]

Very interesting responses! If you go back through the archives, the O2 was touted very highly. It appears that it was considered a better "FatDuc"?  I don't know how long this has been on the bike, but there are no signs of over richness or fouling, and the bike runs strong.

I've had 2 Norges before this. One was DanR's Norge which with loaded up with everything, Power Commander, PCV, O2 Optimizer, and who knows what. Before that I had a stock 2007 Norge and the only thing that was ever done to it was a reflash by Pete at the Malibu Rally in 2008. It ran like a top! Pulled strong, wasn't jerky, no popping on deceleration, etc. That was an 8,000 mi trip followed by several 4-5K trips. My CalVin also runs perfect and has no extra stuff. All stock. I'm kinda inclined to remove this O2 Optimizer once I figure out how its hooked up!

[sbaker]

The problem will all the "add-on" devices is that all the modern Guzzi's, Breva, Griso, Norge, Calvin, 8V etc are closed loop systems. So, unless you are able to change the programming ECU, you will be sending only partial signals to the Computer that will take action but not see any result.. make sure you have the latest update to the ECU from your dealer.. Then run the stock bike!  ALSO... Interesting Factoid... Many bikes some with extra slack in the throttle cable.. It creates the illusion of a dead spot in the power band... Make sure you get RID of the slack... Then just be careful how you roll on .....

[ITSec]

Very interesting responses! If you go back through the archives, the O2 was touted very highly. It appears that it was considered a better "FatDuc"?  I don't know how long this has been on the bike, but there are no signs of over richness or fouling, and the bike runs strong.

I've had 2 Norges before this. One was DanR's Norge which with loaded up with everything, Power Commander, PCV, O2 Optimizer, and who knows what. Before that I had a stock 2007 Norge and the only thing that was ever done to it was a reflash by Pete at the Malibu Rally in 2008. It ran like a top! Pulled strong, wasn't jerky, no popping on deceleration, etc. That was an 8,000 mi trip followed by several 4-5K trips. My CalVin also runs perfect and has no extra stuff. All stock. I'm kinda inclined to remove this O2 Optimizer once I figure out how its hooked up!

The O2 Optimizer is exactly like a FatDuc - though a bit better design. If used alone, it is a straight bias device. If used with a PC-V, it is dialed in a bit differently, and it handles part of the curve with the PC-V taking on the rest. Did it provide some advantage over the ECM as delivered on 2V Norges? Yes, or we all would not have bought one. Did it end up not being a fully effective solution over time? Also yes, particularly when used alone (like a FatDuc) without the PC-V.

As to the comment about closed loop systems, not entirely true. Subject to correction by the experts, but I believe all fuel injected Moto Guzzis that have O2 sensor(s) have narrow-band devices that only provide full feedback during higher rpm operation; below about 4000 rpm, the fuel injection is entirely map driven with no feedback loop. This means there is both closed loop and open loop operation.

A wideband O2 sensor combined with reprogramming of the ECU (either alone or in combination with a PC-V and Autotune) can allow dynamic map adjustments throughout the rpm range. Is this 'necessary'? That's an owner-operator decision.

I'm hoping to add a Stelvio (8v, probably 2013 or newer) to the stable soon. While I've messed around with a lot on my older Norge, the new bike is likely to be handled with only mapping adjustment rather than added hardware.

[Huzo]

Loved reply#1, spoken like a true Aussie, just so damn succinct it reminds me of my late Father.

[beetle]

ITSec, you're arse about. The narrowband operates in sub 4000 range and the high rpm is map only (open loop).

Jerryd, I'm with the two Pete's. Chuck the gizmo in the bin.

[omega1]

Tried the Fatduc on my Ducati some years ago.

Throw it away immediately - if not sooner.

[tris]

ITSec, you're arse about. The narrowband operates in sub 4000 range and the high rpm is map only (open loop)........

I've been trying to understand what closed and open loop meant.

So in layman English does this mean that below 4000 the fueling called for by map is adjusted by the output from the O2 sensor to ensure that it is properly burnt?
Above 4000 any signal from the O2 sensor is ignored?

So, all the Optimiser/FatDuc actually does is con the ECU into delivering more fuel - presumably by making the engine "look" cooler than it really is while following whatever map is loaded?

Thanks in advance

[beetle]

Almost. If by  'Properly burnt' you mean as close to stoichiometric as possible, then yes. With Euro 3 & 4 coming into play (target emissions), it's actually a bit on the leaner side of stoichiometric. The O2 fooler modifies the lambda signal to make it look 'lean', so the ECU adds fuel.

There's at least one device that modifies the temperature sensor signal to fool the ECU into richening the mixture, but they don't work for long as the ECU will still trim the AFR towards stoichiometric.

[pauldaytona]

So the question was, why did people buy these in the past?
I think lack of knowledge. Kept that way by the ones who could sell stuff.

Keep in mind that a full PVM setup still has to foul the lambda input to get things a bit working. Anyway, the whole PCV thing is a ecu fouler.

So does a custom map solve all things? It can make one very happy. But it depends on who does it. Lots of dyno operators will only change the main fuel map. But people are happy, they just paid money and then better be happy to justify it.
Over time we found out a lot about the working of the marelli ecu. We have defined more tables in it then any commercial software has.

Guzzidiag was started with educational intent. We now give you the tools, knowledge doesn't come free, you have to spend time to learn.

[tris]

Almost. If by  'Properly burnt' you mean as close to stoichiometric as possible, then yes. With Euro 3 & 4 coming into play (target emissions), it's actually a bit on the leaner side of stoichiometric. The O2 fooler modifies the lambda signal to make it look 'lean', so the ECU adds fuel.

There's at least one device that modifies the temperature sensor signal to fool the ECU into richening the mixture, but they don't work for long as the ECU will still trim the AFR towards stoichiometric.

Cheers Beetle

Stoichiometric is what I meant but I couldn't spell it!!!

Thanks for the clarification

Tris

[Xlratr]

An engine burns cleanest at an Air/Fuel ratio of 14.7:1 (This is called the stoichiometric ratio). This is not smoothest, most powerful or coolest, but it has the least emissions. A narrow band sensor helps the ECU maintain that exact ratio. It has a very steep (and “narrow”!) signal curve, so it's almost like a switch, just telling the ECU if the mixture is too rich or too lean. The ECU responds to this by constantly making adjustments, many times per second. So basically it’s always cycling slightly rich / slighty lean vs. the target AFR.

This digital like switch functionality is perfect for the job it's supposed to do, but it's not designed to accurately measure *how much* lean or rich the mixture is. That means it is not suitable as a signal source for an O2 fooler device. Trying to optimise an AFR to anything other than “stoich” with an O2 fooler is a bit of a hit and miss affair.

The other down side to a narrow band sensor is the response time. It cannot send signals quickly enough to deal with extreme conditions. That's why at higher rpm and wide open throttle the ECU switches to open loop and just ignores the sensor. It then runs according to a predefined fuel table (fuel vs. throttle position/rpm), and this is rich enough to avoid any engine damage in those extreme conditions. Most of the time an engine is operated below 5,000rpm and low to mid throttle, and that’s where the narrow band sensor works. If you switch off the sensor signal in the ECU Map, the motor will run according to that predefined table ALL the time. But don’t forget, that table was made to work with help from the sensor, so the manufacturer may not have put a lot of effort in to making it perfect on a stand alone level!

A wideband sensor works very differently to a narrow band, and they are not plug and play interchangeable. It has a shallower (and “wider”!) signal curve, so it’s good at measuring exact AFR levels. Wideband sensors are used to help make new maps that can have fuelling set to exactly where you want it be. That is the best way to do it as you are addressing the "problem” at its source and not trying to solve it with a crutch like an O2 fooler. If you don’t want to do it yourself, you can ask somebody who already did if you can use their map.

A PCV with Autotune takes the signal from a wideband sensor and uses it to dynamically adjust fuelling. After a while it has pretty much learned what fuelling is required at different throttle / rpm positions and it becomes less dynamic. This is another way of adjusting your fueling and it offers some quite sophisticated possibilities. But at the end of the day it is another device working *on top* of your factory map. And it’s not cheap (although probably not as expensive as doing the whole mapping and logging work yourself!!).

An O2 fooler in combination with the PCV would only be used if the sensor signal has not been deactivated in the ECU (reflashed). These days it is possible to do that deactivation yourself for free, so this combination of hardware is the craziest way to go!

So, horses for courses really. 

[pete roper]

Roughly translated that means you'd be better off scarifying your penis with a blunt chainsaw than sticking one of these useless and dangerous pieces of dross on your motorbike.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

So, Pete.. you don't care for it, then?  <scratching head>

[Sheepdog]

I tried everything available back when I first got my Vintage without success. Nothing worked as well as the stock map...until I installed the updated map and an O2 Optimizer. Now my bike runs really well, though it did reduce the gas mileage by 3 mpg. Now these mods went on at about the same time, so the Optimizer may have nothing to do with it...but it runs so damn well, I am not inclined to change a thing.

[Jerryd]

Very interesting thread! Other then Pete's very simple response, there are debates here over how the system actually works and what the O2 Optimizer does! I think the Theory of Relativity was discussed somewhere before I started glaze over

So, here's my simple question(s). How do I remove this thing and go back to stock, and who close to Florida can do an up to date effective reflash of my 2V Norge?

Thanks

Jerry

[Xlratr]

Roughly translated that means you'd be better off scarifying your penis with a blunt chainsaw than sticking one of these useless and dangerous pieces of dross on your motorbike.

Pete

Ah heck, and there I was trying so hard not to use the words "penis" and "chainsaw" in my post!! 

[Xlratr]

Very interesting thread! Other then Pete's very simple response, there are debates here over how the system actually works and what the O2 Optimizer does! I think the Theory of Relativity was discussed somewhere before I started glaze over

So, here's my simple question(s). How do I remove this thing and go back to stock, and who close to Florida can do an up to date effective reflash of my 2V Norge?

Thanks

Jerry

It should just be connected (inserted) inline between your o2 sensor cables and the ecu. So just unplug it and reconnect the two cables without the optimizer. You should disconnect your battery for a while to delete the "learned" settings. Not sure how long. Maybe 10 minutes??  It may run different for a while until the ECU gets used to the revised signal.

[Jerryd]

Thank John, that sounds simple. I was getting worried that somehow a chainsaw was involved.......scar y

[bad Chad]

When I put a new can on my Breva back in 2010 it would pop on decal which got on my nerves.   I bought a o2 optimizer from Todd, plugged it in and it solved 90% of the popping!  Milage dropped, but only by 1-2mpg, and I didn't notice any other side effects.   

However, I decided after a year, that based on talks with my wrench at RoseFarm, and my own experience that the bike works better with the db killer in.  With the db killer in, it doesn't need the o2 optimizer, so I pulled it off.  The throttle is a bit smother on and off without the o2 opt, and the bike runs very well.  The only down side for me is the Mistral can with db killer in is dam near as quite as stock, even after replacing the crossover, which contained a catalytic converter!   But it seems to have a bit more grunt with the db in, so thats the way I go.

Anyone want to buy my o2 sensor, it works as advertised, I'll let it go cheap.

[Jerryd]

My Norge which is in question here has a Mistral with the DB insert. However, it does pop on deceleration. But it does pull strong with no noticeable hesitation or flat spots.

 My original post was asking what the dip switch settings should because the bike came from the PO with significantly different settings then what Todd gave me? Then after this thread grew, my understanding is that it is not a good thing to have on the bike, does not offer any significant improvements, and should be removed?

[Wayne Orwig]

Roughly translated that means you'd be better off scarifying your penis with a blunt chainsaw than sticking one of these useless and dangerous pieces of dross on your motorbike.

I guess the question is, which causes more engine damage and repair costs. A worn flat tappet, or an over rich O2 modifier?
I suspect the O2 modifier took more dollars to fix.

[ITSec]

ITSec, you're arse about. The narrowband operates in sub 4000 range and the high rpm is map only (open loop).

Jerryd, I'm with the two Pete's. Chuck the gizmo in the bin.

As I said, subject to correction! 

The point I was making is that there is a limitation to the narrow band sensor design, as Xlratr described more fully later on.

[drw916]

I bought one.  Thought it worked great.  Read Pete's comments on it and immediately pulled it off.  Funny, I never noticed a difference when it was gone.  Just goes to show how easy it is to think something has changed for the better, when it hasn't

[beetle]

Jerryd, it's not hard to flash the map using GuzziDiag. All you need are the cables.

If you like, I'll modify the latest factory 2V Norge map to stop the popping for you.

[pete roper]

Has a 2V Norge in this week. It had the full kahuna on it, PCV/AT, optimiser, reflashed ECU (10% more fuel at the bottom, two degrees more advance in the same area and four more above, no delta correction so crude as buggery.) poor thing was as rich as a stupidly rich thing, it stank and the pipe, back of bike and number plate looked like something off a coal burning tramp steamer or garbage scow. On the trip across from Adelaide it was consuming over 5.5 litres per hundred BUT IT WAS SMOOTH AND DOESNT POP ON THE OVER-RUN!

Bleargh.

Pete

[bad Chad]

Jerry, i will look at the dipswitch settings,  they are sti stock.  I suspect they are very close if not the same for 1200.   Ill post them tomorrow