Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: baxterday on March 06, 2023, 12:36:04 PM
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I hope I am placing this in the correct forum. I have a 1993 SP3 I bought out west. The owner didn't tell me it was leaking oil like a sieve prior to riding back to my home in GA, as well as a few other things, but that is water under the bridge. So I leave a western state and start my trek. I noticed the shifting was a bit different than my other Guzzi's. I stopped for fuel in Kansas and when I left the station, it would not shift out of second gear. I pulled off the road played with the shifter and it worked. I was able to ride all the way to Chattanooga and it did it again after I stopped for some cigars. I had to call my wife and haul it back to the house in our trailer.
The shifting was very different than my LeMans IV. So, I ask for any help to the problem that you guys might have. Could the adjusting nut on the back of the tranny need to be turned in one direction or another. I know it's like a small cam that adjusts shift. The tranny has gear oil in it, but seems to have a leak, not sure where yet as the front seal is leaking really bad. The rear tire and brake are coated with oil. I am prepared to pull the tranny, but don't really have the knowledge to rebuid it if that is what it needs.
Would a used tranny be worth finding and if so, what models tranny would work in the SP3?
I also know there is a spring that can go that causes issues with the tranny, is that something that could cause this?
The clutch seems to work fine as I have to pull it in to move the bike and do so without issue.
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I cant help with the transmission problem, but i see you are in Ellijay Ga. Im between Chattanooga and Dalton. About three miles from Georgia border in Tennessee. Cool to have another Guzzi owner in the area. Good luck with the fix!
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Others with much more knowledge will be along shortly... I believe that any 5 speed Guzzi transmission will work. I'd probably open up the original one first but a replacement could wind up being the cheapest option. Also, try to get a replacement from a model that has the same final drive ratio as your bike. I transplanted all the guts from a Jackal (?) 5 speed into my Sport 1100's Transmission and the speedometer is dead nuts accurate. Have heard of others doing the same and the speedo was waaay off - something like displaying 40% of actual speed - despite changing the transmission's speedometer driving gear. :undecided:
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If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf
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If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf
John's instructions are very good.
It's leaking oil and you are sure it is gear oil? It could be that you have a broken shifter spring and a bad seal, neither one is too hard to repair but you will have to pull the the transmission for both repairs. I wouldn't buy a new transmission until you pull the existing one and report back with what you have.
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This sounds like Mike from Augusta's friend in N.GA. Finally got to look at it eh? Make sure linkage is not hitting frame first to not allow full swing. You can move Adj on back 1/16-1/8 turn no more either way, just enough to see if it helps. I would mark a line on the head so you don't go too far. The spring can come off if you go to far so be cautious. Make sure all pivot bolts are snug & secure and lever doesn't hit frame by swingarm pivot pins. Triangle part of frame.
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This sounds like Mike from Augusta's friend in N.GA. Finally got to look at it eh? Make sure linkage is not hitting frame first to not allow full swing. You can move Adj on back 1/16-1/8 turn no more either way, just enough to see if it helps. I would mark a line on the head so you don't go too far. The spring can come off if you go to far so be cautious. Make sure all pivot bolts are snug & secure and lever doesn't hit frame by swingarm pivot pins. Triangle part of frame.
It is me, I am Mike's friend in Ellijay.
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If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf
I just read through his instructions, what an incredible job he did. I hope I don't have to get that far into it, but I may. My speedo was about 10 mph off and RPM's seemed to be a bit high in 5th gear compared to my BMW R100RS. I have the other instructions on removing the tranny printed out, and will probably remove it tomorrow. Thank you everyone for your suggestions and insight. Just hoping it's something simple.
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You might want to do a search here for “crabbing the frame” to learn how to get the tranny removed. And get at the back of motor.
Are you planning to replace the engine rear main seal too? You are sure the leak is motor oil not gear lube, right?
How many miles on this beast?
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You might want to do a search here for “crabbing the frame” to learn how to get the tranny removed. And get at the back of motor.
Are you planning to replace the engine rear main seal too? You are sure the leak is motor oil not gear lube, right?
How many miles on this beast?
I was going to replace the rear seal as well as the front since there appears to be oil coming from it. I have already printed out the instructions on crabbing the frame. I am seeing oil on the right side of the motor and what smells like gear oil at the rear. The rear tire and brake caliper are full of oil residue. Had I been told this I would have had the bike shipped. It shows about 25K on the odometer, but I have no way of knowing if that is accurate or not, I am less than impressed with the sellers integrity.
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A knowledgeable observer from afar:
“Chances are his problems are related to the oil leak.
I'll bet that the gearbox input or output shaft bearing has bust up one of its plastic
cages and pushed bits of it out through the seal, hence the Exxon Valdez impersonation.
Poor shifting might be related to bits of errant cage in the box but also might just be
poor adjustment. Either way he shouldn't ride it until it's fixed.”
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IF either of the Clutchshaft (input) or Layshaft (output) bearings have started to go south it could possibly result in the box locking up.
Either of the bearings collapsing could cause shaft misalignment, or just general mayhem.
The Phenolic/Nylon/Plastic bearings for both these shafts shafts support the majority of the load.
If it was me I wouldn't contemplate riding the bike until sorted, if that's the cause.
I'd get rid of these bearings and install the all metal type that I mentioned in the write up, methinks that's what BC's sage advice might have been alluding to.
Many thanks for the kind words, the whole thing was more of an article that ended up going rogue.
John
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IF either of the Clutchshaft (input) or Layshaft (output) bearings have started to go south it could possibly result in the box locking up.
Either of the bearings collapsing could cause shaft misalignment, or just general mayhem.
The Phenolic/Nylon/Plastic bearings for both these shafts shafts support the majority of the load.
If it was me I wouldn't contemplate riding the bike until sorted, if that's the cause.
I'd get rid of these bearings and install the all metal type that I mentioned in the write up, methinks that's what BC's sage advice might have been alluding to.
Many thanks for the kind words, the whole thing was more of an article that ended up going rogue.
John
I won't be riding it until things are sorted out. Should have the tranny out this afternoon, I will then follow your well written instructions to take care of any issues. I hope to report back the issues I find. With luck I will have it back together by the end of the month for a early April ride/stay with friends to the area of the Dragon. Wish me luck!
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Sounds like the gearbox is running dry. Once you have the gearbox off the bell housing the leak may be obvious. One thing no-one has mentioned: There's a stake nut at the end of the layshaft. If that wasn't staked, or staked so aggressively as to crack the nut, the layshaft can spin forward and drill itself fright through the front of the gearbox, dumping oil into the bell housing.
As long as you're in there, replace the clutch and the shift selector spring etc.
It all looks complex but I've done it twice and if I can do it, anyone can.
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Maybe the output shaft nut has come loose? Have seen that a few ties, makes for a bad shifting, oil leaking, 1940s Ford truck sounding gearbox. DonG
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Unfortunately I did not have time to remove the tranny today, looking like Saturday now.
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Good luck and take your time. It's not to bad if you follow the instructions on crabbing.
My take on crabbing. A cherry picker/engine hoist for the rear of the frame and a platform screw jack for the engine works great. Also a very stable wheel chock helps like the Harbor Freight black one.
Tom
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Some comments before you go too far.
The spring has nothing to do with your problem. It either works or it is broken. Binary. The spring can't show issues that come and go. If the shift linkage automatically returns to its central position then the spring is working. If the spring breaks, the shift lever will remain at either full up or full down and you'd have to physically pull it back to center.
Sounds like your issue is happening after long, hard runs when you stop to refuel. Look carefully, the shift linkage goes through a pivot welded as part of the frame. The exhaust header pipe aligns VERY close to that frame rail and the linkage pivot. Quite easy for the pivot itself to get very hot and very dry and start binding. In such case, the shift lever may stick one way or the other and mimic a broken spring. I'd start right now by spraying a whole bunch of your favorite spray lubricant all over the pivot area and see if that makes things easier. Also not too difficult to disconnect and remove the linkage to physically clean and grease lubricate the interior of that pivot. A quick spray will at least give you a hint.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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First let me thank everyone for their help. I am just about to crab the frame and pull the tranny. I did pull the clutch rod and found only one of the little flat bearings in place, I thought there were supposed to be two. As I removed the rod and the little flat bearing remaining started to drop all the little rollers and then when I got the rod all the way out, there was a mangled piece of metal about 30 millimeters long and about 1 in diameter. Also, gear oil started to leak from the hole. Heading back to crab the frame and yank the tranny. That's all I have for now, I guess the next step is to open the tranny and hope to see something obvious.
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That part should look like this on back end of rod. Is that what's mangled up?
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=435
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I did pull the clutch rod and found only one of the little flat bearings in place, I thought there were supposed to be two. As I removed the rod and the little flat bearing remaining started to drop all the little rollers and then when I got the rod all the way out, there was a mangled piece of metal about 30 millimeters long and about 1 in diameter. Also, gear oil started to leak from the hole.
The throwout system passes through a 22mm hole in the back cover of the transmission. The bottom level of that hole is at or above the high tide level for gear oil. So, oil should NOT come out unless overfilled.
The combination of parts in the throwout system should look like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRnwG0mw/Throwout-System.jpg)
Note that there is only one bearing with captive rollers. But those rollers ride (or roll) sandwiched between two very-hard race washers. Lately, some suppliers have been delivering a bearing with the rollers captive into one of the race washers and then only one other loose race washer. I prefer the original.
Also note the rubber o-ring in the outer body. Good idea to replace that while it is out.
Can you please post a picture of the mangled piece? Sounds like you are describing the inner body but that should not be damaged in any way.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Not uncommon for the throwout, or as I prefer thrust, bearing to come to pieces, it's pretty fragile
It's important that the adjustment mechansim on the clutch arm which is attached to the cable at one end and pushes onto the plunger in the endcase, does not touch the plunger when the clutch isn't being actuated (when the clutch allows the engine and gbx to connect. That's why there is a light spring that acts on the arm to push it clear when not in use.
If the arm is touching the plunger when not being actuated, it can cause the rod to spin, resulting in the bearing failing, not good.
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Finally got the tranny out a short time ago. It's obviously been out before and opened. I found a small bearing roller on the magnet when I emptied the oil out of it, and saw that the bolt on the front is mangled up. See photos. Now to open it up.
(https://i.ibb.co/XSxGrw3/IMG-3758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XSxGrw3)
(https://i.ibb.co/GMrQ3mZ/IMG-3759.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GMrQ3mZ)
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So reading the instructions on opening the tranny to repair it, it says to put it in neutral. That is not an option for me as mine is stuck in 2nd and will not shift out of it. Any recommendations? Can anyone recommend a Guzzi tranny specialist in GA or TN? I am not sure if I should open it up.
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Normally you would remove the rear cover to open up the trans. If your not in neutral, you end up pulling all the gears out with the cover , trust me I know.
Someone on here said you can pull the case off the cover leaving everything in place on the cover. Have the trans bell housing facing up with the cover down, and it may slide apart. Just a thought.
No help for someone to do it for you where you live.
Good luck!
Tom
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Guzzi calls it a gearbox and the rear drive is sometimes called the transmission. That bit of luck librarianism out of the way, pulling the rear cover, cleaning out the gearbox and reinstalling the clusters and shift drum is a very fiddly job but not bad if you take your time. I would pull the shafts, rods and drum, noting very carefully the shim positions, and then check all of the bearings. Replacing the shift spring is a must-do if the box is apart. If you can get an old u-joint half it is very handy for spinning the rear output shaft while checking shifting. Don’t try to check the shifting without reinstalling and snugging up the rear output shaft nut. Don’t ask how I know. Have fun with it and good luck.
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Well, I pulled the cover off. I have not removed the front special bolt yet. The picture above of the little bearing piece, well I found a whole bunch more in the tranny. Some are cut in half and there was a whole bunch of metal shavings in the tranny as well. It looks like the bearing at the rear of the tranny where the rod for the clutch goes may have failed and come apart? Hopefully I will be able to get it back together and going again. I do not notice any bearing with plastic in them, maybe they had been replaced?
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:gotpics:
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Sounds like your throw out bearing. While in there I would atleast replace the inlet and outlet bearing and give it a shot at shimming the drum.
The Guzzi transmission was my first foray into MC transmissions. If I can do it, you can! :thumb:
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Your problem of the transmission stuck in 2nd gear reminded me of this song from back in the fifties, Dusty would surely remember it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2skGMkxB6Ng
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It looks like the bearing at the rear of the tranny where the rod for the clutch goes may have failed and come apart?
I stand to be corrected, but I'm not certain that a failed throwout bearing can push pieces inside the gearbox case. I think they remain captive inside the bore of the rear cover. Someone school me.
Inspect the rear cover carefully. If the throwout bearing did disintegrate, its spinning steel pieces can do serious damage to the internal surface of the 22mm bore of the aluminum rear cover. If the bore is damaged it will repeatedly tear up any o-ring that you use to seal the outer body. If damaged badly, the rear cover can be replaced or yours can be sleeved to restore the original bore dimension and smoothness.
Meanwhile, there is another radial thrust bearing on one of the shafts. Perhaps the roller bits came from that one. Do a careful inspection.
BTW, failure of either of these bearings shouldn't prevent shifting unless something (some part?) got jammed out of place. I'll be curious to see why the shifting doesn't work. I never heard back about the possible binding of the shift linkage as it passes through the frame rail. Also, the Guzzi is known to resist any shifting unless the internals are spinning. Good to have someone turn the rear wheel by hand while you try shifting the system. Once you reassemble the box, it still won't shift on the bench unless you turn input or output shafts.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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(https://i.ibb.co/tL3kt9x/20190807-213637.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tL3kt9x)
I'm the fan of doing it the easy way.
Undo the input shaft nut.
Remove the selector detent ball and spring.
Undo all the back cover screws.
Prop the transmission, cover down on parallels.
Lift the main case off (note any shims)
The result looks like this image
Do repairs as necessary.
Stack the repaired parts on the back cover.
Drop the case over the assembled works.
Reinstall cover screws.
Reinstall input shaft nut (torque properly).
Done.
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Your problem of the transmission stuck in 2nd gear reminded me of this song from back in the fifties, Dusty would surely remember it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2skGMkxB6Ng
Without even clicking on the link I knew it was the song about the little Nash Rambler. :grin:
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I have only had one 5-speed apart, and that one had a destroyed throwout bearing because the shaft bearing came apart.
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I stand to be corrected, but I'm not certain that a failed throwout bearing can push pieces inside the gearbox case. I think they remain captive inside the bore of the rear cover. Someone school me.
Inspect the rear cover carefully. If the throwout bearing did disintegrate, its spinning steel pieces can do serious damage to the internal surface of the 22mm bore of the aluminum rear cover. If the bore is damaged it will repeatedly tear up any o-ring that you use to seal the outer body. If damaged badly, the rear cover can be replaced or yours can be sleeved to restore the original bore dimension and smoothness.
Meanwhile, there is another radial thrust bearing on one of the shafts. Perhaps the roller bits came from that one. Do a careful inspection.
BTW, failure of either of these bearings shouldn't prevent shifting unless something (some part?) got jammed out of place. I'll be curious to see why the shifting doesn't work. I never heard back about the possible binding of the shift linkage as it passes through the frame rail. Also, the Guzzi is known to resist any shifting unless the internals are spinning. Good to have someone turn the rear wheel by hand while you try shifting the system. Once you reassemble the box, it still won't shift on the bench unless you turn input or output shafts.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
The shift linkage was fine, it went up and down without any binding and returned to where is should. It just didn't move it out of what I think was second, could have been third.
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As mentioned already. Pics of where your at so far would be great. Especially the throw out bearing.
Tom
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Got the main input shaft out and it was easy. I simply used a punch to tap on the nut with the four grooves in it since I don't have the tool. When I say tap, that's all it took to loosen it. I also discovered the locking washer had none of the tabs engaged. I also believe it was installed upside down as the flat side was down and the domed side up. I noticed the tabbed washer is concave to cradle the nut? Maybe the washer became concave because it was so loose? So the bearing that this shaft goes into in the cap end of the tranny disintegrated into the small pieces shown in the photos. That is a dime for scale. The end of the shaft still has the inner race attached and it is heavily grooved, not sure if it shows in the picture. I believe that the problem is only the above described. Nothing else looks out of whack. I will of course replace the seals. Thoughts and advise on moving forward?
(https://i.ibb.co/L8wS4GG/IMG-3770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L8wS4GG)
(https://i.ibb.co/NKdY1fN/IMG-3769.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NKdY1fN)
(https://i.ibb.co/d4BvsFW/IMG-3768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4BvsFW)
(https://i.ibb.co/G0Hpppg/IMG-3766.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G0Hpppg)
(https://i.ibb.co/SyyQdx7/IMG-3767.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SyyQdx7)
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As mentioned already. Pics of where your at so far would be great. Especially the throw out bearing.
Tom
Tom,
Which one is the throw out bearing? Is it the little needle bearing on the shaft that runs through the the tranny to the pressure plate? It came apart when I pulled the shaft out. I just uploaded some more pictures.
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I think input shaft nut is supposed to be around 120 ft/lb.
I tend to think those roller bearings disintegrate running moly in transmission.
Check that input and output bearings have metal ball retainers.
If not replace them with bearings that do have metal ball retainers.
(https://i.ibb.co/26VN2tZ/A-8-3205-SKF-EN.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26VN2tZ)
Check the selector return spring.
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In your 3rd picture. The locking washer is sitting on the table correctly. Flip the nut over so the tapered side is down. that is how it should go together. Yes the lock washer is sorta cup shaped and only 1 tab will line up with the slot in the nut.
The throw out/thrust bearing is the one on the end of the rod that goes through the trans and pushes on the clutch.
Your 5th pic looks like a destroyed bearing race. That could be where the bits of needle bearing are from rather than the throw out bearing.
Post a pic of the bearing that the destroyed race goes into please.
Tom
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That whole transmission roller bearing is scrap. The inner race pulls off the shaft. A blind puller will remove the outer race from the back cover. NAPA loans tools and probably has a blind puller, free! 123bearing stocks all the bearings at advantageous prices including the 22 ball, double race, radial thrust bearing used on the input and output ends. They deliver in a timely manner.
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Here is a picture of, or what's left of the bearing the destroyed race goes into. The pieces found in the tranny came from this bearing.
(https://i.ibb.co/7WntCjT/IMG-3771.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7WntCjT)
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You are lucky that the travelling bearing junk didn't lock up the transmission enroute and cause an accident.
Very thoroughly inspect every gear for tooth damage. Inspect every bearing for race damage. Bearing rollers are HARD and the bits will carve up anything that they get into.
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That whole transmission roller bearing is scrap. The inner race pulls off the shaft. A blind puller will remove the outer race from the back cover. NAPA loans tools and probably has a blind puller, free! 123bearing stocks all the bearings at advantageous prices including the 22 ball, double race, radial thrust bearing used on the input and output ends. They deliver in a timely manner.
Any idea what the part numbers are of the bearings on their website?
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I'm sure you have read the tutorial on going through the trans on thisoldtractor web site. It has the bearing numbers listed in it. Also bearing cross reference: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_transmission_bearing_cross-references_-_5_speeds.html
The tutorial is from a different model and shows O rings that are not likely to be in your trans. IIRR there is 2 under the input hub and 1 or 2 on the output shaft behind a gear.
123bearing appears to be a good source for all the bearings, I think they are in Europe. MG Cycle has the bearing your looking for I believe.
Tom
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The 22 ball input/output bearing was the scarce one.
Many sub an 18 ball double row bearing.
It has a lower radial load capacity.
I got all the bearing numbers off the bearings I removed.
I confirmed fit by comparing measurements against published dimensions.
I shopped for "best brand" when possible.
Price was not the consideration as labor (and reliability) is more important than a few dollars saved.
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A few more pictures of the inside of the tranny. The layshaft bearing race in the front of the case is not flush with the case, should it be? The main shaft bearing and clutch shaft bearing in the back of the tranny seem to be the same. I was able to tap it out of the back case cover as it was protruding about 5 mm. That and the thrust bearing on the clutch push rod as it came apart when I took it apart. I just have to figure out how to get the race off the end of the shaft, I will be hitting napa for a puller. The main shaft bearing in the case has a little play, should I replace it too? I am just going to get the parts from Harpers or MG. See photos. As I mentioned the nut with the locking tab was installed backwards and not tight at all. I used about 5 pounds of pressure to get it to spin. That can't be right. Also no second oring present, only the one on the shaft.
(https://i.ibb.co/V91B9Sw/IMG-3772.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V91B9Sw)
(https://i.ibb.co/HCQ74R0/IMG-3773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HCQ74R0)
(https://i.ibb.co/DRKGfdH/IMG-3775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DRKGfdH)
(https://i.ibb.co/9wgqFSd/IMG-3774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wgqFSd)
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Pic 4. You have the nut and lock washer correct. You also have one of the O rings shown. There is a second larger and thinner that slides past the installed O ring and sits just barely on the smooth shaft against the bearing. Right about where the smooth area is just behind the O ring shown.
If you have a heat gun. You can use that to warm up the case where a bearing goes and they usually will slide right out.
With the work it takes to get to where you are. Any bearings your in doubt of, might as well change them now. Or, just change them all, then you shouldn't need to for many many years.
Also while your in there. Is the rear main seal on the engine leaking? Now is the time to change it. BUT........To get the clutch assembled correctly, you need the correct tool to compress the pressure plate. BUT....BUT....There's more.... you can use the input hub as the tool. You just need a bolt that threads into the end of the crankshaft and a few washers. I think the bold is M12, but I do not remember the pitch at the moment.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y7tv1mF/Clutch-tool-bolt-length.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7tv1mF)
Tom
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Other things you'll want to check for and fix if necessary:
Intermediate shaft separation:
(https://i.ibb.co/kB9jhhc/Jim-s-Ambo-5-spds-017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kB9jhhc)
Indentations worn/hammered into the 5th gear inner bearing race:
(https://i.ibb.co/D9b3RvQ/Jim-s-Ambo-5-spds-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D9b3RvQ)
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I think I know why the previous owners were in the tranny. I noticed it has a new return spring. I think they simply did not put the clutch shaft in correctly as evidenced by the loose and upside down nut and lack of locking it in place. Everything else seem to be fine. I am ordering bearings, gaskets and a few seals today. With luck I will have her back on the road this weekend. I am going to change out the stock airbox and replace with K&N's, like I have on my LeMans.
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You should put specified torque on the input and output shaft nuts. In each case you'll need special holders. Is there anyone nearby to you that could loan those holding tools? Are you going back with the original 2mm clutch spline or moving up to the better 4mm clutch spline? That determines what you use to hold the input shaft. I can loan, but shipping from CAL would be expensive and delayed. Must be someone closer.
(https://i.ibb.co/CPmrYRL/MVC-068L.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPmrYRL)
(https://i.ibb.co/9r7znTM/IMG-4593.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9r7znTM)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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You should put specified torque on the input and output shaft nuts. In each case you'll need special holders. Is there anyone nearby to you that could loan those holding tools? Are you going back with the original 2mm clutch spline or moving up to the better 4mm clutch spline? That determines what you use to hold the input shaft. I can loan, but shipping from CAL would be expensive and delayed. Must be someone closer.
(https://i.ibb.co/CPmrYRL/MVC-068L.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPmrYRL)
(https://i.ibb.co/9r7znTM/IMG-4593.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9r7znTM)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
I am not sure what the clutch spline is you are talking about. How do I determine which one is currently in the bike? The actual clutch plate is fine, no issues there, and it may have been replaced when the return spring was changed to the three coil one. They also installed the cups on the clutch rod backwards.
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On page 1 about 3/4 way down there is a pic. Looks like a deep input hub.
Baxterday,I posted a pic of the deep and shallow clutch hub earlier take a look at the pic.
You could try to use a strap wrench to hold the input hub and then the output shaft. Not the best, but should work.
Tom
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I am not sure what the clutch spline is you are talking about. How do I determine which one is currently in the bike? The actual clutch plate is fine, no issues there, and it may have been replaced when the return spring was changed to the three coil one. They also installed the cups on the clutch rod backwards.
Talking about the input gear or spline on the front of the transmission. That spline inserts into and is driven by the two clutch friction plates. Your picture back on page one shows a deep spline = 4mm which is the newer/better spline. Earlier bikes had a shallower = 2mm spline tooth depth. Most people upgrade to the newer 4mm version if changing out the entire clutch. I'm not sure if a 93 SP3 came originally at 4mm. That was about the time of the design change. While the newer plates and spline can fit older bikes, you can not mix 2mm plates with a 4mm spline. Change all or change none.
What do you mean by "...cups on the clutch rod...". Referring to two slightly tapered rubber seals? Which way did you find them? Picture? Many people now abandon those two cup seals and substitute a stack of 5(?) o-rings instead. See on Bender's site at: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_clutch_push_rod__installation.html (https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_clutch_push_rod__installation.html)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I cant help with the transmission problem, but i see you are in Ellijay Ga. Im between Chattanooga and Dalton. About three miles from Georgia border in Tennessee. Cool to have another Guzzi owner in the area. Good luck with the fix!
I'm also in this area - Hixson, TN. We should all meet for coffee or beer one of these days.
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I'm also in this area - Hixson, TN. We should all meet for coffee or beer one of these days.
Definitely. Let me get this beast back on the road. I ordered the parts yesterday from MG, then realized I forgot a bearing for the clutch rod. So, it was ordered today. I hope to have everything Saturday. Waiting on a part for the R100RS as well. At least the Aprilia is running.
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Well my parts finally arrived after taking a detour to Knoxville via the USPS. I believe I have everything needed to put it back together. While examining things I noticed the fork on the shift lever, see pictures, was not springing back into position, there was metal shaving causing it to bind, see photos. I took a feeler gauge and got the metal out and it seems to function as it should. Could this also be why it would not shift out of gear?
(https://i.ibb.co/s6Swb85/IMG-3849.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6Swb85)
(https://i.ibb.co/pvLsPwf/IMG-3848.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvLsPwf)
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Could this also be why it would not shift out of gear?
(https://i.ibb.co/s6Swb85/IMG-3849.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6Swb85)
(https://i.ibb.co/pvLsPwf/IMG-3848.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvLsPwf)
Bingo! Those teeth have to be out all the way in order to grasp and turn the shifting drum. Nice that you now have a definitive target to blame. Some of us have gone through all of this without finding a culprit and without knowing if it would work when reassembled.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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:thumb:
Tom
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Well, I have it back together finally. I was taking my time just wanted to get it done right. So far it seems good. Going back in the bike next week. Then the bike back on the road in time for the heat of summer. Found a few bits of the bad bearing in the gears when I thought I had found everything. I just hope it stands up to the pressure of being used.
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I had a gear that was not properly hardened in a Suzuki Esteem, and the tranny ate itself. Under warranty, so had the dealer fix it. They did a crappy job cleaning it out, and within two weeks of getting it back, the input shaft seal had failed. Took it to a different dealer who could not believe how much crap was in there. He replaced the seals and all of the bearings again. It only takes a few slivers of overlooked swarf to ruin all of your hard work. Clean the shit out of everything, dissasemble everything, and flush every bearing completely. If there is still oil stuck to something, there are still bits of metal stuck to it, too.
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I had a bearing come apart in my gearbox. I pulled everything out and flushed the box with solvent several times. I also ran a magnet over everything. Then reassembled. There’s just too much work getting to the gearbox not to clean it all the way down before assembly.
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Although we live on the backside of the planet down here the word was that GM succeeded in getting that song banned. :shocked:
Don't know whether that was an urban legend or not, but it makes for a good story. :laugh: :laugh: