Author Topic: V7 tweakage?  (Read 2208 times)

Offline ray field

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V7 tweakage?
« on: June 08, 2022, 09:49:14 AM »
Last week I bought a 2018 V7 III Special from a friend, it's really just about everything I want in a bike -- to make way for it, I sold a 2015 Ducati Scrambler Full Throttle, which was a blast, but not quite right for how I like to ride; also it ran hot as b@lls. Much as I love this V7, maybe coming from the Duc I miss just a little bit of power, so I'm wondering what kind of (hopefully somewhat modest?) mods could wring a couple more horses out of it.

Certainly am tempted to put Guzzidiag to work on it - however, I haven't noticed the snatchy throttle I read about - though I guess it could be a little quicker coming from a full stop. (Then again, I've only put about 60 miles on it.) The original owner took great care of it, and seems to been fairly skillful & knowledgeable, so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd actually remapped it... in any case, given it's a fairly inexpensive/uncomplicated add-on, I may just go ahead and do that (after I get new pipes???) but my understanding is it's not going to make it go faster. Again, I ain't trying to double the HP but maybe bring it a little closer to the stonkiness of my old Aluminum.


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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2022, 10:06:11 AM »
The V7 III is a hemi head, so I know there's more room to fart around with at the cylinders than the older heron-style heads, but that's outside my territory.

You can shave at least 20 lbs if not more quite easily by doing the following, and maybe feel somewhat zippier:

  • Swap the lead-acid battery out for a lithium. I think there's a 10 lb difference there.
  • Swap the stock pipes out for a stainless steel aftermarket (who likes chrome anyway??) I saved 12 lb jumping over to a high mount SS scrambler pipe from Unit Garage.
  • Ditch the plastic mudguards for aluminum ones. MAS Engineering supplied the ones for the Stornello, Rough, Milano, Racer, etc., and now sell them independently from MG for around $450 a set, if I recall. Or chop the fenders if you'd like.
  • Last but not least, always ride with just enough fuel in the tank to get you by... you could save upwards of 30 lb!!

That last one was kind of a joke.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 10:41:12 AM by Dirk_S »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2022, 10:39:16 AM »
Whats the mileage on your V7 I have the same bike its now over 20,000 km, and seems to be waking up.
Not much use lightening the bike if you have a fat arse like mine LOL
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2022, 11:31:44 AM »
The V7III has about the best mapping of the new bikes. You won't see much improvement. Truth is being completely broken in is the best power gain.
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2022, 11:31:44 AM »

Offline ray field

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2022, 07:12:01 PM »

  • Swap the stock pipes out for a stainless steel aftermarket (who likes chrome anyway??) I saved 12 lb jumping over to a high mount SS scrambler pipe from Unit Garage.

Might do, if I could find one that ALSO makes the bike perform better... which so far I'm not seeing but I've only been looking for an hour.[/list]

Offline ray field

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2022, 07:21:20 PM »
Whats the mileage on your V7 I have the same bike its now over 20,000 km, and seems to be waking up.
Not much use lightening the bike if you have a fat arse like mine LOL

Not even close to teething, 4200 miles. I'm kind of a midget (5'6" stretched out) so guess I'd have to wear weights if we were racing.

Guess I can wait, this thing is really just about everything I need in a bike.

Offline moto-uno

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2022, 08:53:27 PM »
" just about " , I want to see where this eventually goes  :evil: . Peter

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2022, 11:12:33 PM »
You want an honest answer?   Then no. 

The V7 small block is a delightful little machine.  It puts about 40 horsepower to the rear wheel. That’s either enough for you, or it’s not.  I loved mine. 

Want more power?  Well, step one is to learn to ride it hard.  Give it full throttle more often.  Get it up to 5,000 to 6,500 rpm. I believe a lot of people condemn an engine for being too weak for their needs, but they don’t give it a chance.  Rev it hard—it likes it.  Give it full throttle—you won’t hurt it. 

Having tried the above, if you still want more power?  Get another bike.  I’m not being mean.  I really like the V7 personality.  But no—there simply isn’t a meaningful amount of horsepower you can somehow “unlock” relatively cheaply. 

Enjoy it for what it is, giving it a full opportunity to satisfy you.  If that doesn’t trip your trigger, get something else. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 11:19:41 PM by SmithSwede »
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Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2022, 08:30:04 AM »
I'm with Swede on this.

It was generally accepted that without major surgery you weren't going to improve the Heron Head's performance. Sure this is a Hemi head now and I can feel that difference in the seat of my pants when I hop off my MkI Heron head Stone and hop on my Hemi head MKIII Carbon Dark.

But when I hopped on the V7-850 I didn't feel that same expected improvement over the III. So even a little more cubes and crank hp didn't translate into an additional noticeable punch. And I went in ready to feel it and ready to add a 3rd V7 to the fleet.

I imagine you could waste a lot of time trying to open the air box, put crappy louder pipes on it, and remap the ECU only to wind up with something that still doesn't hold a candle to your old Scrambler (or our Monster 696).

And I can take any keychain I want to the garage any day.

I take one of the V7 keychains about 9 out of 10 times compared to the Monster keychain.
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Offline Jack Straw

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2022, 01:36:07 PM »
The two previous posts are the truth.  Only minimal power gains are possible without spending tons of moolah.  If you do find 3 or 4 horses you'll quickly get used to that (if you even notice it at all.)


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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2022, 03:44:00 PM »
Last week I bought a 2018 V7 III Special from a friend, it's really just about everything I want in a bike -- to make way for it, I sold a 2015 Ducati Scrambler Full Throttle, which was a blast, but not quite right for how I like to ride; also it ran hot as b@lls. Much as I love this V7, maybe coming from the Duc I miss just a little bit of power, so I'm wondering what kind of (hopefully somewhat modest?) mods could wring a couple more horses out of it.

Certainly am tempted to put Guzzidiag to work on it - however, I haven't noticed the snatchy throttle I read about - though I guess it could be a little quicker coming from a full stop. (Then again, I've only put about 60 miles on it.) The original owner took great care of it, and seems to been fairly skillful & knowledgeable, so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd actually remapped it... in any case, given it's a fairly inexpensive/uncomplicated add-on, I may just go ahead and do that (after I get new pipes???) but my understanding is it's not going to make it go faster. Again, I ain't trying to double the HP but maybe bring it a little closer to the stonkiness of my old Aluminum.

I think people just like to say "snachy"  :grin:  Welcome aboard, enjoy your bike!
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2022, 03:46:27 PM »
You want an honest answer?   Then no. 

The V7 small block is a delightful little machine.  It puts about 40 horsepower to the rear wheel. That’s either enough for you, or it’s not.  I loved mine. 

Want more power?  Well, step one is to learn to ride it hard.  Give it full throttle more often.  Get it up to 5,000 to 6,500 rpm. I believe a lot of people condemn an engine for being too weak for their needs, but they don’t give it a chance.  Rev it hard—it likes it.  Give it full throttle—you won’t hurt it. 

Having tried the above, if you still want more power?  Get another bike.  I’m not being mean.  I really like the V7 personality.  But no—there simply isn’t a meaningful amount of horsepower you can somehow “unlock” relatively cheaply. 

You "LOVED"??? Past tense? Did it die?? Surely not.

Enjoy it for what it is, giving it a full opportunity to satisfy you.  If that doesn’t trip your trigger, get something else.
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Offline Alfetta

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2022, 04:14:37 PM »
OK...  the V7iii is a hemi head 2 valve air cooled motor that is putting out a claimed 52 HP  (wheel or crank IDK).  I also have a 250cc single 2 valve air cooler at home putting down 20 HP

So Guzzi = 52HP / 744cc = .069 HP per cc.
Honda = 20HP / 250cc = .080 HP per cc.

Thus I think that it is safe to assume the the goose should be able to produce approx. 59 HP

I think that the problem will be the changes required to the controller / program and sensors.
It may be easier to change to carbs. add a stand alone ignition system, and then suffer with the loss of dash data, traction / abs  etc... or engineer a solution...
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2022, 04:21:24 PM »
OK...  the V7iii is a hemi head 2 valve air cooled motor that is putting out a claimed 52 HP  (wheel or crank IDK).  I also have a 250cc single 2 valve air cooler at home putting down 20 HP

So Guzzi = 52HP / 744cc = .069 HP per cc.
Honda = 20HP / 250cc = .080 HP per cc.

Thus I think that it is safe to assume the the goose should be able to produce approx. 59 HP

I think that the problem will be the changes required to the controller / program and sensors.
It may be easier to change to carbs. add a stand alone ignition system, and then suffer with the loss of dash data, traction / abs  etc... or engineer a solution...

I'm sure there's more to the equation than just volume to HP.

Is your 250cc single also using pushrods. The Guzzi's using a bit of an antiquated design, and as such, shouldn't be expected to match something rocking OHC. Is there an oil cooler? difference in weight or parts quality? Looking at the V85TT, that pup puts out over 70 HP for an 850cc, so that's saying something, but if I recall, it also has some titanium bits or other higher quality pieces thrown in there.
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Offline Alfetta

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2022, 04:39:50 PM »
I'm sure there's more to the equation than just volume to HP.

Is your 250cc single also using pushrods. The Guzzi's using a bit of an antiquated design, and as such, shouldn't be expected to match something rocking OHC. Is there an oil cooler? difference in weight or parts quality? Looking at the V85TT, that pup puts out over 70 HP for an 850cc, so that's saying something, but if I recall, it also has some titanium bits or other higher quality pieces thrown in there.

I agree that the V7 is old school design, but then again the XR is also dated, yes newer, but dated. I believe that  the original V7 produced more that 50 HP (others head should know, as i don't).
I do know that the regulations of the Euro 4 engine will restrict the power that the motor can produce, and that there is room to improve what the goose can produce, The rub that comes is that the control systems are so integrated that your options would be to completely reverse engineer the system, then make the desired change, or remove the controls completely and install your own.  The latter will make the dash and other features useless, or very difficult to make function correctly again.

Personally I would not mind loosing the traction control and the ABS systems, but I would not like loosing my speed and tack clocks, but there are aftermarket clocks.

now is the (unknown) HP gain worth the modifications ?  to me NO, not unless i was given a donner bike, and had little else to do. but then again, I love to tinker and modify...

If I were to change my V7, The first thing i would do is make a set of taller gears for the final drive unit..  the engine has plenty of muscle to pull 75MPH at a lower RPM...
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2022, 08:59:39 PM »
>> You "LOVED"??? Past tense? Did it die?? Surely not.<<


You have a sharp eye John.  Yeah, that was past tense.  V7 is not dead.  I fixed the minor crash damage and rode it a bit over Memorial Day.

But things are real tense now between me and my V7.  I thought she was my best friend, but she hurt me bad.   Maybe she’s mad at me for screwing up and throwing her down the road.  All further complicated by me “turning Japanese” with a freaking Kawasaki that, well, does not lack for horsepower.

Oh well.  Life is full of surprises. 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 09:04:16 PM by SmithSwede »
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Offline MMRanch

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2022, 10:37:32 PM »
Welcome to the forum Ray !  :grin:

Hay , my V7II has at least two super powers.    The monster bikes I sometime ride with have nothing on my bike and if there are twisty roads in the days route one of my SUPER POWER shows up .   The other one shows up at the fuel stations without fail.   

You know power is only a piece of the whole , its not even the main piece as long as there is "Enough" .



 
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Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2022, 06:39:30 AM »

I do know that the regulations of the Euro 4 engine will restrict the power that the motor can produce, and that there is room to improve what the goose can produce,


I think we can all agree that there's always a little something that could be found in terms of peak HP on a tightly emission controlled engine.

The $1M question is how much and how much will it cost.

Those things are determined by the point of "restriction," that is "what's the limiting factor".

Is it simply exhaust or air box choking, is it just injector pulse width or ignition advance, or is it the size/shape of the valve train and combustion chamber or camshaft profile?

And maybe this is the most important part, what will those changes mean to other performance parameters from power produced everywhere else in the rpm range to feel, efficiency etc.

The V85 makes more power with a different ECU, throttle body, and valve train. But here's the rub, I DON'T LIKE IT. I greatly prefer the overall engine experience of my V7s.  Now the V9's I've ridden are a different thing and I'd take that experience in my V7 powertrain in a heartbeat.

But BUT how much would that cost in time and effort?!?

Way more than the ROI to me.

Ymmv, so have fun.
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2022, 07:39:42 AM »
Welcome to the forum!

When Guzzi 'adopted me' and called me from the land of Japanese IL4 into the land of the 90 degree V Twin, I had a hard time adjusting to the loss in power. Granted I was coming from an FJR 1300 to a 4V Griso 1100, but even the 1200 8V Norge I picked up a couple months later was way down on power. Even my wife mentioned it on overtakes. She said 'why are you passing so slow? Are you learning the new bike?"  LOL

Some of what she said was true, I had not yet learned how to make the most of how the Guzzi motor makes power. Yes it is a twin, yes it is torquey down low, and has some chug, but the sweet spot for power, and sound is in the 4500-6500 Rev range. Once I started shifting here, the sound and power did not leave me wanting. Not sure how you are shifting, but this may help at least with a more aural sonnet and sense of power.

Beyond that, Agostini or Mistral slipons will help with more sound and less weight, but sounds like you need some weight, lol. Agostini have a sharper exhaust note, Mistrals are deeper and more mellow.

As others have said, there is not much more on the table, and the stock map is pretty decent, but you can wake up the motor with a Beetle Map, pipes, fresh plugs, valve adjust, clean air filter, and let the motor rev and do its thing. **Having Guzzi Diag is a great tool and thing in and of it self, and if you get a Beetle Map, he usually bumps the rev limiter (or used to) by 500 RPM. My Stornello with my 200lbs, a bunch of added weight from crash bars, center stand, triple bags, large windscreen, etc, spins to 7K very quickly, and is intoxicating. It's NOT a liter + sport bike, but is it's own kind of fun. The ONLY time I feel a little let down is when I have been riding the 1200 Sport a lot, but that is only for a moment or two.

People have told me repeatedly that Guzzi's break in in steps of 4-6K, and by 12K are finally fully broken in. I have found this to be true on an 1100 4V Griso, 1200 8V Norge, and V7ii Stornello. Both of the motors on the Griso and Norge felt markedly better at 6K and better at 8, and perfect at 12K. I'm just at 7/8K on the Stornello.

Have fun playing and tuning and dialing it in for you. We look forward to seeing your next Guzzi, because one is never enough ;-)
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2022, 05:19:38 PM »
Ugh, now my brain won’t stop thinking about how much effort it would be to swap out my V7 II motor for a V7 III, and then do a bore kit for that.
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Offline Frulk

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2022, 08:58:54 PM »
 Buy a KLR. Any year will do. Ride it for a few days. Now jump on your V7. Problem solved.

But all seriousness aside…I’m not kidding about that…buy the KLR and whenever you think the V7 is slow ride it for a day or three.

Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2022, 09:11:26 PM »
Ugh, now my brain won’t stop thinking about how much effort it would be to swap out my V7 II motor for a V7 III, and then do a bore kit for that.

Waste of time

You want an early Bobber/Roamer/Bobber Sport motor.
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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2022, 07:39:30 AM »
Waste of time

You want an early Bobber/Roamer/Bobber Sport motor.

I thought that initially, but saw a comment from Todd on the GTM forum mentioning that boring out a V7 III would yield more top power over the V9. Having said that, I have a sidecar, so perhaps I really should have more torque over hp. I don’t know what the specs would actually be. Thanks for making me think further about it, Kev.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2022, 08:18:06 AM »
I thought that initially, but saw a comment from Todd on the GTM forum mentioning that boring out a V7 III would yield more top power over the V9. Having said that, I have a sidecar, so perhaps I really should have more torque over hp. I don’t know what the specs would actually be. Thanks for making me think further about it, Kev.

I mean I don't have numbers for ya, but my thought was you specifically don't want top end on a side car rig, you want torque. And, maybe my butt dyno was wrong (they tend to be inaccurate), however I really do think the V9 had more push. It felt so much more like a big block in that aspect that I bet it would be the perfect mill for what you are doing.
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Offline vf84pc

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2022, 07:56:00 AM »
Just Met a Guzzi legend “Ace” at the NY Ralley. We were discussing this exact issue he said a new cam would wake up my motor. However speed cost$$ how fast do you want to spend??? Pm me I will send you his number.

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2022, 08:22:36 AM »
Does he have one for the V7?
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Offline majstevetrevor

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2022, 11:47:10 AM »
Guzzitech does have dyno numbers posted in various places on their website. It does appear that you can get noticeable gains in both HP and torque with upgraded air filter, lighter more free flowing pipes, and a reflash. Maybe $1500..

Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2022, 12:10:32 PM »
Guzzitech does have dyno numbers posted in various places on their website. It does appear that you can get noticeable gains in both HP and torque with upgraded air filter, lighter more free flowing pipes, and a reflash. Maybe $1500..

I haven't been there in a long time, but I'm not having any luck finding them at a glance.

This one looked promising, but I only see the one dyno run on page 1, which was like 1 hp gain with the exhaust:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gtm-v7-iii-exhaust-options-dyno-runs.17134/

Can you point me in a better direction?
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Offline majstevetrevor

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2022, 07:30:08 AM »
I haven't been there in a long time, but I'm not having any luck finding them at a glance.

This one looked promising, but I only see the one dyno run on page 1, which was like 1 hp gain with the exhaust:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gtm-v7-iii-exhaust-options-dyno-runs.17134/

Can you point me in a better direction?
Currently at the beach and away from my computer but I will look when I can and see if I can find what I remember. Now that I think about it though it’s possible the numbers I saw were with the big bore kit, which obviously is more than just tweaking.

Offline majstevetrevor

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Re: V7 tweakage?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2022, 12:11:48 PM »
I haven't been there in a long time, but I'm not having any luck finding them at a glance.

This one looked promising, but I only see the one dyno run on page 1, which was like 1 hp gain with the exhaust:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gtm-v7-iii-exhaust-options-dyno-runs.17134/

Can you point me in a better direction?
Here's the dyno chart on their "muffled drag" exhaust, showing 55 hp and 50 ft-lbs of torque. I believe stock dynos at about 48 hp and 43 ft-lbs. If that's right, not bad at all, esp with the 20 lbs cut from stock exhaust.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-iii-gtm-muffled-drags.21387/





 

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