Author Topic: Waiting for the light to change in neutral  (Read 1375 times)

Offline Kaladin

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 148
Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« on: September 26, 2022, 11:18:47 AM »
The manual for my 2007 Norge says that I shouldn't sit at the stoplight in gear with the clutch pulled in.  As usual for user's manuals, it doesn't say why.

In the old days of clutch cables it was extra safe to put it in neutral in case the cable snapped, but I don't think that is the reasoning with thy hydraulic clutch.

Any ideas?
-k
First you look where it should be, then you look where it might be, then you look where it won't be, then you look where it mustn't be.  And when you find it you discover "that's where it should have been."
2007 Norge
2000 BMW R1150GS
2003 Jaguar XKR

Offline Mayor_of_BBQ

  • Instagram: @Mayor_of_BBQ
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3617
  • 'Ever thus to deadbeats, Lebowski'
  • Location: Asheville, NC
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2022, 11:29:03 AM »
Norge? LOL so you dont have to hear the clutch plates chattering! (In the words of my dad- "If my motorcycle made that noise, I believe I'd take it to a mechanic!")

Honestly I have no idea. I always shift down to first and hold the clutch in unless I am at a 'known' extra-long light.  Maybe the italian manual writers dont know about crazy US drivers and road rage. I prefer to be in gear and ready to move if someone comes screaming up behind me or other such instances
Chad (Shadrach) in Asheville NC
1979 LeMans CX-100 (battle axe)
2007 Breva 1100 (Sport 1200 tribute)

Offline Dirk_S

  • www.dirkshearer.com
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1495
  • Doodler of doodles
    • www.DirkShearer.com
  • Location: Portland, Maine, U.S.
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2022, 11:30:23 AM »
I think it’s a general rule for dry clutches.
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

Previous: ‘15 Ural Gear Up, ‘77 Kawasaki KZ400 Special, ‘78 Honda CX500S, ‘80 Honda CX500D, ‘11 Suzuki TU250X

Offline Ryan

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2022, 12:19:08 PM »
Early in my riding, I was taught to keep it in gear and the clutch in, pointed in a safe direction and watching my mirrors so I could quickly escape someone who was about to rear-end me. I still do it, but only until there is a car stopped behind me.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2022, 12:19:08 PM »

Offline berniebee

  • 2020 Board Donor
  • Gaggle Mentor
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 570
  • Location: Ottawa, Canada
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2022, 12:47:39 PM »
Dirk is right , this is good advice for any dry clutch. Don't keep your clutch lever pulled for extended periods. Why? Dry clutches have a clutch bearing.




The bearing only spins when you pull in the clutch lever. These bearing will wear out prematurely if you keep the clutch lever in at every stop light.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 12:51:41 PM by berniebee »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 29438
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2022, 03:41:04 PM »
C'mon folks. There are splines in the clutch and intermediate plates that are free to rattle back and forth when the lever is pulled in. It's because of the 270 degree firing order. They will eat up the transmission input gear and flywheel. Simple. Once you are no shit sure there's nobody about to hit you from behind at a light, bump it into neutral and release the lever. All those parts will thank you.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 14124
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2022, 04:29:14 PM »
My Convert says: "Pffft", I don't need no stinkin' neutral."  :grin:
Charlie

Offline Kaladin

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 148
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2022, 04:30:43 PM »
Thanks, I was hoping to be enlightened, and I was. 
So even in Neutral with the clutch pulled in is wearing the mechanism.

k
First you look where it should be, then you look where it might be, then you look where it won't be, then you look where it mustn't be.  And when you find it you discover "that's where it should have been."
2007 Norge
2000 BMW R1150GS
2003 Jaguar XKR

Offline Kaladin

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 148
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2022, 04:51:36 PM »
My Convert says: "Pffft", I don't need no stinkin' neutral."  :grin:

The Convert user's manual recommends not looking too smug when stopped at a stoplight.
First you look where it should be, then you look where it might be, then you look where it won't be, then you look where it mustn't be.  And when you find it you discover "that's where it should have been."
2007 Norge
2000 BMW R1150GS
2003 Jaguar XKR

Offline Markcarovilli

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1082
  • Location: NE Ohio
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2022, 08:09:12 AM »
The Convert user's manual recommends not looking too smug when stopped at a stoplight.

in addition to waving with your left hand whenever you want to....

Mark

Offline chuck peterson

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5205
  • Location: New Haven CT
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2022, 08:23:08 AM »
 :popcorn:

Regarding the Vert departure…

I’ve advocated stomping on the foot brake…

“Open throttle fully…” per owner’s manual !!!

“Release brake..” again per owner’s manual !!!

Just to check full acceleration  :cool:


Oh and then the queen’s wave with the left hand…I definitely left hordes of bikers scratching their heads at Marcus Dairy
"I'd like to thank all my friends who have kept my Guzzi's going, but mostly...TOMB."
150k on Verts
750 Nevada
400f
R5 Yammie
BV250
4x 1976 Moto Demm Smily,, now 5, oops now 6, oops now 7
1980 SP1000 in little bits and pieces

Offline MMRanch

  • MMRanch
  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Evil wins if Good Men do Nothing
  • Location: Lynchburg , Tn.
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2022, 08:44:27 AM »
For me its a carry over from driving strait shift cars :
     Go from high gear to neutral without using the clutch as you stop.
     Don't use the "throw-out-bearing/clutch"  no more than necessary.
     When the light is changing , then and only then press the clutch and put it in gear.

To change the "Throw-out-bearing" means to separate the transmission and clutch housing.   Who wants to do all that ? 

What worse than having to work on your vehicle ?   
Paying somebody to work on your vehicle !    :laugh:
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 09:01:46 AM by MMRanch »
2016 V7-II Stone
2022 Royal Enfield Meteor Stellar Blue

Offline Wayne Orwig

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 13906
    • Hog Mountain weather
  • Location: Hog Mountain
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2022, 11:49:21 AM »
To change the "Throw-out-bearing" means to separate the transmission and clutch housing.

On a Norge?
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline twowheeladdict

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6146
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2022, 11:55:50 AM »
C'mon folks. There are splines in the clutch and intermediate plates that are free to rattle back and forth when the lever is pulled in. It's because of the 270 degree firing order. They will eat up the transmission input gear and flywheel. Simple. Once you are no shit sure there's nobody about to hit you from behind at a light, bump it into neutral and release the lever. All those parts will thank you.

And I watch for the cross traffic light to turn yellow and then put in first so I am ready to go, unless I am further back from the light, in which case I have time to put into gear before the cars in front of me are moving. 
2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
2021 Kawasaki KLX300SM
2017 Suzuki Van Van 200
2009 Harley Davidson Softail Custom

Offline TOMB

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
  • Location: Newington Ct. 06111
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2022, 12:26:42 PM »
Wait! What?

My Convert doesn't have a Neutral?

My Eldo certainly had more than one neutral!

TOMB
TOMB

CENTRAL CONNECTICUT
1972 Eldorado new to me so "0" miles so far
1972 AMBASSADOR 169000 MILES
1978 G5 170000 MILES
1973 V7 SPORT 25000 MILES
1973 ELDORADO 300000+ MILES
1980 CX100 50 MILES
1976 CONVERT-62000 MILES AND BUILDING
1976 HONDA CB400F 27 MILES AND BUILDING SOLD

MGNOC # 2723

Offline Scott of the Sahara

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 721
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2022, 01:32:19 PM »
I like to keep the bike in neutral then put it in gear just before the light changes.
Reasons: I do not want to keep the clutch pulled in for long periods, my hand can cramp up.
Also when I put it in first I know what gear I am in. It is not happy to try to start in 2nd.
I also think the clutch internal parts have less wear when in neutral, especially the throw out bering.
Another reason is I like the happy little green light on the dash shining up at me.

Offline Frenchfrog

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2022, 04:15:41 PM »
Keeping the clutch pulled in at the lights is simply not good mechanical practice...I'm astounded that people seem to frequently do this in the US.In Europe you would never pass a license test if you did it and as others have pointed out it's a sure way to wear out the clutch release bearings and more.

Online Tom H

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3373
  • Location: So. Cal.
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2022, 06:12:15 PM »
Frenchfrog,

IIRR, being in gear at a stop light is the riders safety course way of doing it. It appears that Europe disagrees.

But then... A question that used to be and maybe still is for the written motorcycle drivers test in California was that if your throttle got stuck (don't think it said WO or not) would you... and a multiple choice. One was to shut the bike off. BEEPP wrong answer. Pull in the clutch is the correct answer. Nothing in the answer said pull in clutch and shut bike off, just pull in clutch. So, remember, if you throttle ever sticks according to Ca. DMV, pull clutch and blow your engine!

FWIW, If at a short time light (like you just saw your direction left turn light go and you just pulled up to the traffic), in gear. If at a light that I know takes some time, neutral.

JMHO,
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online AJ Huff

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4066
  • Location: College Community IA
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2022, 06:31:17 PM »
My MSF course taught us to stay in gear and pull the clutch in at lights. I've been doing it that way ever since.

I think by the time I I found neutral after shifting back and forth from 1st to 2nd the light would have changed anyway and I could be on my merry way. LOL.

-AJ
'71 Ambassador
'01 California Special
'05 Road King
MGNOC# L-753

Online pehayes

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4567
    • Falcone Touring
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2022, 06:34:33 PM »
To change the "Throw-out-bearing" means to separate the transmission and clutch housing.   Who wants to do all that ? 

Not on a Guzzi.  LoopFrame or Tonti  you just pull the swingarm and the clutch bearing is staring you in the face.

On my vintage Guzzi singles, the clutch bearing comes off without any tools in about five seconds.  Oh,  you need a rag to clean your greasy fingers.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline MMRanch

  • MMRanch
  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Evil wins if Good Men do Nothing
  • Location: Lynchburg , Tn.
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2022, 08:50:02 PM »
Not on a Guzzi.  LoopFrame or Tonti  you just pull the swingarm and the clutch bearing is staring you in the face. 


I sure hope that is true of the V7II   "if" I ever have to replace the clutch bearing on mine .    :smiley:
2016 V7-II Stone
2022 Royal Enfield Meteor Stellar Blue

Offline Frenchfrog

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2022, 02:58:41 AM »
Well if you are taught to pull in the clutch instead of snitching into neutral then I understand that most riders would do that ...but it still makes little sense from a mechanical point of view.I guess that the USA Clutch Manufacturer's Association must have had someone good doing their lobbying  :grin:

Offline Speciality

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Location: England
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2022, 07:19:28 AM »
I was taught to put the gearbox in neutral too (UK). Same with cars too. As for being rear-ended the advice is to show the stoplight until another vehicle pulls up behind. I tend to put in neutral as I come to a stop. As ever though the “it depends” qualification comes into play. Often one can assess how long it will be before the lights change, in which case I’ll hold it in first for a brief period.

Offline kballowe

  • - Kevin the Great -
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2783
  • Location: Villa Ridge, Missouri
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2022, 07:35:34 AM »
I'm always in gear at a stoplight. 

Offline Anomaly

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Location: Southern Tuscany (mostly), Rhode Island (sometimes)
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2022, 07:48:09 AM »
You all seem to be talking about bikes with  a neutral indicator that indicates neutral and a gearbox that predictably renders up neutral on the first try. I thought this was a Guzzi forum....  :grin:
1981 T3 California, 1983 Piaggio Apecar P2
Sold: 98 BMW F650, 2012 v7 Classic

Offline Frenchfrog

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2022, 08:22:10 AM »
What's a neutral indicator ?! :grin:

Offline Anomaly

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Location: Southern Tuscany (mostly), Rhode Island (sometimes)
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2022, 08:42:19 AM »
What's a neutral indicator ?! :grin:

It's a little green lamp in the middle of the gauge cluster "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"
1981 T3 California, 1983 Piaggio Apecar P2
Sold: 98 BMW F650, 2012 v7 Classic

Offline brider

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1377
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2022, 08:47:15 AM »
This topic is just too tempting to NOT weigh in on.

I am in the "put it in neutral" camp.

Like many oldsters here, I was taught to put it in neutral based on the theory of not wearing out the throwout bearing on a car/truck. Same logic applies with a motorcycle, which DOES have a throwout bearing of sorts.

But imagine yourself sitting at the head of the line with cross-traffic in front of you, on a dynamic system with 60+ HP of latent energy being held back by your squeezed hand, and the clutch cable/hyd line:

A. Frays and snaps that last wire that kept it operational
B. Looses the crimped ball-end because it was defective from the manufacturer
C. Hyd clutch line fails under pressure at a weak point that has been weakening for a long time with no symptoms
D. You have a sudden muscle spasm, stroke, or any other malady that causes you to release the clutch lever

As we say in the aircraft biz: Bad things happen fast.
'85 Cal II Auto
'71 Ambo project
'02 GasGas EC300
'07 Norge
Wish'd I'd never sold:
'72 Red Eldo
'74 White Eldo LAPD
'77 Convert with DB bags
'06 Gas Gas EC300
'86 LM IV

Offline Bulldog9

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2669
  • Location: United States
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2022, 08:53:24 AM »
I stay in gear at lights until the cars behind me are fully stopped. Not harmful for a minute or two, but holding the clutch in on any vehicle will create wear to the throwout bearing and mechanism. Catastrophic? Nah, but wear all the same. Always better to sit and idle in neutral.

I love the chinkalingaring sounds my Griso and 1200 Sport make when the clutch lever is pulled. Still remember Dave Richardsons face when the first time I pulled the clutch and immediately released in surprise. "That's normal, only be worried if it doesn't make that noise... It's a dual plate dry clutch..."
MGNOC#23231
The Living: 1976 Convert, 2004 Breva 750, 2007 GRiSO, 2008 1200 Sport, 2016 Stornello #742,
The Departed: 2017 MGX, 2014 Norge GT, 
In Stasis: 1978 XS750, XS1100SF

Offline Moparnut72

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2233
  • Location: Quincy California
Re: Waiting for the light to change in neutral
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2022, 09:43:27 AM »
I am in the put it in neutral when the coast is clear. I had a very early R75/5 that broke clutch cables quite often. That is a wake up call at a light for sure. There was a sharp bend in the cable at the lever that would fray the cable. I modified it but it didn't help much. I tried to keep an eye on it but would get complacent and it would always break at a light.
kk
Mopar or Nocar
2023 V100 Marina
2019 V7lll Special
MGNOC #24053
Amiga computer shop owner: "Americans are great consumers but terrible shoppers".

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here
 

Quad Lock - The best GPS / phone mount system for your motorcycles, no damage to your cameras!!
Get a Wildguzzi discount of 10% off your order!
http://quadlock.refr.cc/luapmckeever
Advertise Here