Author Topic: V85TT Oil Consumption  (Read 2469 times)

Offline DesertPilot

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V85TT Oil Consumption
« on: September 27, 2022, 08:41:51 PM »
At 10,000 miles, my V85TT has begin to Consume Oil.  Not much -- around 3000 mi/qt -- but more than it did the first 6000 miles.  I just pulled the airbox and that was bone dry, so it doesn't seem to be blowing oil out the crankcase.  Sometime over the next few days, I'll roll it out into the sun, pull all the heat shields, and poke around looking for leaks.  If I can't find any, it may be time... sigh... to scrounge together the bits to to a leak-down test.

What kind of oil consumption... or lack thereof... are the rest of you V85TT owners seeing?  And for those who were seeing some oil vanish, what kind of leaks, portals into other dimensions, seemed to be the place it was vanishing too?

Offline Guzikid

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2022, 10:53:12 PM »
  What's the spark plugs look like ???   The Kid

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2022, 11:18:30 PM »
  What's the spark plugs look like ???   The Kid
I'd been thinking about that too.  I haven't pulled them yet to look.  My experience in the past has been that burning oil at the 3000mi/qt level might not show up on the plugs, so I figure if I do pull them, I might as well do a full-on leak-down test as well.

The last time I had Mystery Oil Consumption at this level on a moto, it turned out to be a tiny leak -- so small as to be almost invisible -- at sump gasket on a Triumph Tiger 800 that I and a very good shop had entirely failed to find for two years.  And that was on an ordinary inline engine, where I knew where to look.  If this is a leak, I suspect I could be staring right at it and miss it.  Alas.  So any 'most likely places to look' or 'that's where I always find mine' suggestions would be of some value!

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2022, 06:22:26 AM »
Have you been doing interstate riding lately?  Wondering because the manuals for all the Japanese bikes I have owned say you should expect to consume some oil with high speed riding. 
2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2022, 06:22:26 AM »

Offline Speciality

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2022, 07:10:43 AM »
I’d expect an air-cooled engine to burn some oil. If the 85TT engine is the same as the 850 V7 it only has 1.75ltr in it; not a lot, so it must lead a hard life. It is interesting though that it appears to have started using oil. I’d expect a properly run-in engine to use less when thoroughly run-in, not more. I’m afraid I can’t help with “normal” consumption on an 85TT, which depends on many factors anyway. Does the workshop manual give any information on what normal consumption should be?

Offline guzziart

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 07:16:21 AM »
Have you been doing interstate riding lately?  Wondering because the manuals for all the Japanese bikes I have owned say you should expect to consume some oil with high speed riding.

FWIW, I took my '08 Wing with 66k on it cross country in '21 on a 6k trip and had no observable oil comsumption.  Similarly, in '19, I took my '12 Wee Strom with 43K miles on it cross country on a 5k trip and had no observable oil comsumption either.  Both bikes were ridden on a mix of interstate and secondary highways. I'm the original owner of both bikes and am diligent with the oem specified maintennace routines.  I guess I missed the statement in the Japanese owners manuals indicating that increased oil consumption could be expected with high speed riding.  However, I didn't miss the statement in the owners manual for my '78 HD FXE that specified at some point during the useful life of the vehicle valve train failure will occur...yeah, that was an eye opener.

IMHO, vehicles manufactured today should consume no noticeable amount of oil between oil changes.  My '21 Subaru uses 0w-20 oil and  consumes no noticeable amount of oil between oil changes. 0w-20 oil is like water...viscosity wise, to me.  How some vehicle manufacturers can say oil consumption rates  of 1 quart/1k miles is acceptable is outrageous, again, IMHO. 

I hope I didn't put the maloik on myself with my good fortune of having no oil consumption issues with some of my old junk.
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Offline Cam3512

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 07:46:47 AM »
I’ve asked about this before.  My dealer puts in the proper amount of oil each service.  After about 1-2K miles the oil has dropped to the middle of the sight glass.  I have no clue as to where it’s going.  That seems to be the consensus with the V85’s.  Make sure you’re checking the oil level with the bike upright on both wheels.  On the center stand will give a faulty reading.  It does seem to occur more quickly when I’m burning down the highway at higher speeds.  I have taken to carrying a small container of 10/60 in the saddle bag, just in case.
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 07:52:31 AM »
FWIW, I took my '08 Wing with 66k on it cross country in '21 on a 6k trip and had no observable oil comsumption.  Similarly, in '19, I took my '12 Wee Strom with 43K miles on it cross country on a 5k trip and had no observable oil comsumption either.  Both bikes were ridden on a mix of interstate and secondary highways. I'm the original owner of both bikes and am diligent with the oem specified maintennace routines.  I guess I missed the statement in the Japanese owners manuals indicating that increased oil consumption could be expected with high speed riding.  However, I didn't miss the statement in the owners manual for my '78 HD FXE that specified at some point during the useful life of the vehicle valve train failure will occur...yeah, that was an eye opener.

IMHO, vehicles manufactured today should consume no noticeable amount of oil between oil changes.  My '21 Subaru uses 0w-20 oil and  consumes no noticeable amount of oil between oil changes. 0w-20 oil is like water...viscosity wise, to me.  How some vehicle manufacturers can say oil consumption rates  of 1 quart/1k miles is acceptable is outrageous, again, IMHO. 

I hope I didn't put the maloik on myself with my good fortune of having no oil consumption issues with some of my old junk.

Obviously for the Goldwing that would be running 90 - 100 to be considered high speeds.  :-) 

It is not that they will continue to consume oil, just that at high speeds they could consume oil.  In my Kawasaki owners manuals they go so far as to say if you are planning to run at sustained high speeds to bring the oil level to the top line in the sight glass. 

Pointing out your personal experience with your two motorcycles is very helpful in this conversation.  Thanks. 

Here is a screen capture from a Kawasaki Versys owners manual for normal riding.




porsche cayman s 0 60


and a screen capture for high speed riding.




2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
2021 Kawasaki KLX300SM
2017 Suzuki Van Van 200
2009 Harley Davidson Softail Custom

Offline Don G

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2022, 07:54:56 AM »
Ride it like you stole it, that is what it needed from day one. Too many people baby their engines, and this is the end result.  DonG

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2022, 08:29:45 AM »
Piston rings from China, BUT it's ALL ok. I wouldn't buy any new Guzzi's.
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Offline buck

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2022, 08:52:11 AM »
Obviously air cooled engines don’t have the same control over tolerances during all operating conditions that water cooled engines have. I expect air cooled engines to use a bit of oil.

My V7-850 uses a similar amount of oil with 8000 miles on it. At the 6000 mile service I did find a bit of oil in the airbox. I know, not the exact same engine but the design elements and many parts are the same. IMO if you don’t find a leak you’re chasing a ghost. If consumption continues to increase I could see the point in a leak down test, but my experience based on building more engines than I could count in my life is you aren’t going to see anything significant on a leak down gauge. In fact, I’ve rebuilt engines that were using a quart in less than 1000 miles that showed less than 4% leakage in each cylinder.

Think about it like this - if your engine used 1/100 of a drop of oil combined between both cylinders for each set of combustion events, and assuming your engine turned 3000 rpm at 60 mph, it would consume a quart of oil in 1300 miles. So - based on your current consumption (assuming it is being burned) each cylinder is burning approximately 1/500th to 1/400th of a drop per combustion event (approximately). The cause of such minute oil bypass could be attributable to such minute variances in manufacturing tolerances that you’ll never see it on a leak down gauge. It could also be attributable to shifting/aligned ring gaps - which can be caused by slightly out of round cylinder bores causing ring gaps to “walk”, a valve seal or guide that is passing a bit more oil, etc.

Again, considering the amount of expansion and contraction that occurs in an air cooled engine, I expect some oil usage. If my V7 continues to use oil at this rate it won’t bother me a bit. It just means all of the rings are getting lubricated  :boozing:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 08:55:19 AM by buck »

Offline tommy2cyl

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2022, 09:06:49 AM »
A topic I am interested in.  My 2019/20 V 85 tt has consumed  2 quarts of oil over 16,000 miles.  Has used oil from day one, even before 600 mile service.
This last trip I changed oil before taking off.  Traveled 1500 miles and added 150 ml.  Then continued another 1100 miles for a total of 2600 and added another
200 ml, or 350 ml total love the 2600 miles.  The trip was a mixture of sustained highway for hours, and secondary roads averaging 45 mph.  My bike has
no noticeable weeping, no drops on floor, no blue smoke out the back.  Changed plugs for the trip but the original plugs looked fine. 
Seems the amount of oil consumption for these bikes is all over the map.  My buddy has same year and uses no oil.  I have seen other posts where one guy was adding a quart per 1000 miles.  WTF?  I read somewhere that there was a bad set of rings for the early bikes like mine, but I have received no recall notice of any kind and my dealer, Cadre, has no knowledge of this. This is the first bike I have ever owned that uses oil. I have heard various opinions on air cooled bikes using some oil is normal.   My 1999 DR 350, which I have owned since new,  doesn't use any. 

Totally confused on the theory of 'run it like you stole it', don't baby it because the rings won't seat, etc.  Heard all the theories on why you don't have to break in car engines but you do on motorcycles  yadayadayada.......  I figure the people who built it should know best so I followed the guidelines perfectly, because that is what my OCD forces me to do.  As soon as allowed, changed the little tach lights and starting riding normal.  So at this point, not sure if I have a problem or some oil usage is normal.  I have owned 15 bikes over 38 years of riding and this is the first one that I have to add oil to.  My Hondas, Suzukis, Kawasaki, Ducati, and Triumphs didn't require top offs.  This bike does. 

Final question:  Is 2 quarts over 16,000 miles reasonable?  Because of the huge variance of owner's experience, I haven't got a clue.  I do know I am not happy about it and questioning if I need to do a leak down test.   Any continued input is most appreciated.  Preferably from guys who make their living with wrenches in their hands.

Offline tommy2cyl

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2022, 09:37:30 AM »
Just read Buck's entry immediately before mine,  after I posted mine, so appreciate his insight and I do feel better.  I will say this.  My 2019/20  (purchased July 2019) bike runs perfectly.  I have no hiccups like the EU 5 versions, so no complaints in that regard.  Runs so good in fact that I have been hesitant to eliminate cat and add Agostini Y pipe because I don't want the decal pop that supposedly occurs with that change, or change how well the bike runs currently.
 
Subset question:  Read on Guzzi Tech I think that an " EU5 map should NOT work on the EU 4 or visa versa.  It's different hardware."  Curious if this is the consensus/true?
 
It would be good if everyone who owns a V 85 post about their oil consumption or lack thereof.  Building a data base would be valuable for all involved, especially if you want to pursue any option with your dealer.  Again, the more data we have on this, maybe some kind of "normal consumption range" could be established.  I know I would sleep better.   :boozing:
 

Offline buck

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2022, 09:50:24 AM »
I am sure MG has a spec for oil consumption, and it probably allows for significantly more consumption than anything we are discussing here. As for trying to eliminate that consumption, you could start over with new pistons, rings, cylinders and heads, and it is a crapshoot as to whether or not the oil consumption will decrease (or in fact, increase). I know people hate it when their bike uses oil, and there are inconveniences associated with having to carry oil. But really, on many engines one wouldn’t bother to add oil until it was close to a quart low. The issue with these engines is the extremely limited sump capacity doesn’t allow you to run it anywhere near that low. So adding oil becomes more frequent because it has to be done 4-12 ounces at a time, depending on your level of OCD about oil level.

Also, I have a theory based on the oil I’ve found in my airbox that filling it to the max mark on the sight glass causes the crankcase ventilation system to pick up more oil vapor and deposit it in the air intake stream, thereby unintentionally increasing oil consumption. Because of that I try to keep the oil level no higher than approximately the middle of the sight glass. I’ve put 2000 miles on it since I did the 6000 mile service and I’m just approaching the low mark, so perhaps that is helping to slow consumption on my engine.

Offline tommy2cyl

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2022, 11:20:20 AM »
Thanks Buck.  I keep my oil at the middle in the sight glass.  That's what I consider full.  Also check level after actually riding for 10 minutes and let set for 2 minutes and check.  Heard somewhere, maybe the manual, that just warming up at idle isn't the proper way to do it.   I really appreciate your feedback.

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2022, 11:31:06 AM »
The other "issue" is the oil check procedure. 

From Page 219 of my V85TT owner's manual regarding the oil.

Check the engine oil level frequently.

NOTE: halve the service intervals indicated if the vehicle is used in particularly rainy or dusty conditions, on poor roads or for high performance riding.

The oil level must be checked when the engine is warm.

Do not let the engine idle with the vehicle at a standstill to warm up the engine and obtain the operating temperature of the engine oil.

Preferably check the oil aftr a journey of after travelling approximately 10 miles in extra-urban conditions (enough to warm up the engine oil to operating tempurature).

  • Shut off the engine
  • Keep the vehicle upright with both wheels on the earth
  • Using the relative opening (sight glass) on the engine casing, check the oil level

I have found that bikes with complicated oil level checks tend to have a lot of variance in the oil levels if not checked exactly according to the instructions.  On some bikes I have owned that has resulted in owners thinking the oil level is low when it is not, and adding more oil. 

Unless I am on a multi-day road trip I just tilt the bike up, see oil and go ride.  That is the beauty of having a sight glass. 


2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
2021 Kawasaki KLX300SM
2017 Suzuki Van Van 200
2009 Harley Davidson Softail Custom

Offline Don G

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2022, 04:03:50 PM »
For the sceptics that don't believe in breaking your rings in by loading the engine can continue believing what they want. I have been in the engine rebuilding trade since 1981 and every engine that we installed was taken out and driven in a lower gear both on and off the throttle a number of times to seat the rings according to the directions from the Hastings piston ring company and the ones that got that treatment never had a problem with oil consumption.  DonG

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2022, 04:36:03 PM »
For the sceptics that don't believe in breaking your rings in by loading the engine can continue believing what they want. I have been in the engine rebuilding trade since 1981 and every engine that we installed was taken out and driven in a lower gear both on and off the throttle a number of times to seat the rings according to the directions from the Hastings piston ring company and the ones that got that treatment never had a problem with oil consumption.  DonG

Bikes are typically run on the dyno at the end of assembly for the QA folks to do final inspection. 

Personally I follow my own break in drills based on all the information gathered.  I don't do the motoman method, nor the manufacturer method.  I used to only keep a bike 3 to 6 years with an average of 10,000 miles a year and never had an oil consumption issue in that time.  The '08 KLR 650 I sold to my neighbor started using oil at about 70,000 miles and got taken out by a teenager at 80,000 miles. 
2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
2021 Kawasaki KLX300SM
2017 Suzuki Van Van 200
2009 Harley Davidson Softail Custom

Offline mondtster

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2022, 07:08:42 PM »
All engines consume oil. The amount of oil that gets consumed may or may not be detectable in modern engines, but they do burn oil. OEMs spend millions of dollars on reducing oil consumption and have made great improvements but consumption is still not zero (I've been part of numerous oil consumption tests for an engine OEM). Consumption rates will vary depending on engine bore diameter, number of cylinders, horsepower, etc.

My V85 burns some oil. The amount consumed seems to be primarily affected by how hot I've gotten the engine/oil and how much high speed highway riding I've done. The worst consumption I saw was when I was on a trip last summer after I was stuck in traffic on two separate occasions and got the bike hot. For the rest of that oil change it drank oil at a pretty fast rate but consumption returned to normal after the oil change. It will still burn a bit of oil when I'm doing sustained 85 mph highway runs for hours at a time, which doesn't surprise me since it is an air cooled engine.

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2022, 07:07:49 AM »
Oil consumption can be a result of the cross hatch on the cylinder walls. I have seen pictures of Cummins diesels that still had cross hatch after a couple of hundred thousand miles. The GC Jeep we bought a year ago used a quart and a half of oil before it's first change, I thought it was going to be a major issue. However it has used hardly any since.
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Offline Don G

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2022, 10:29:17 AM »
The cylinder sleeves in 8.3L Cummins engines are Nickasil lined.  DonG

Offline Chethro

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2022, 05:08:22 AM »
Mine has used 100ml per 1300 miles since new.  I fill it up when it’s close to the bottom mark and it goes up a bit past the halfway mark. I have no cat, mistral exhaust, vTwin boost dongle and SAS delete. Bike gas always ran fine. I do run it in rain mode since I like the throttle response there.
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2022, 09:46:16 AM »
Mine has used 100ml per 1300 miles since new.  I fill it up when it’s close to the bottom mark and it goes up a bit past the halfway mark. I have no cat, mistral exhaust, vTwin boost dongle and SAS delete. Bike gas always ran fine. I do run it in rain mode since I like the throttle response there.
That's about what I'm getting.  From what everyone's been saying, I gather this isn't too far out of line.  My other air cooled bikes may have done better, but they were mere motorcycles, not proud Guzzis. 

This is increasingly turning into a, "No worries, mate.  Keep an eye on the oil level, check for leaks when you can, do a leak down test when you can, and don't expect any problems," kind of deal.  Thanks, everyone, for the input!  Right now the garage floor is covered with tools while I wait for the new rear tire for our Ducati Scrambler to arrive, my air compressor got given to a friend, and my ancient but venerable leak down tester seems to have vanished during a move sometime over the last 30 years -- it's always a Bad Sign when you open the box where you Absolutely Positively Know You Put Something, look inside, and find it isn't there  :laugh:  If all fails to go as unplanned, I'll do a big search for leaks sometime next week, then take my time scrounging a new leak down tester and borrowing my air compressor back.

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2022, 07:02:20 PM »
I finally got around to checking compression and doing a leak down test.  Pistons and rings seem fine.  Wherever the oil is going, it's going somewhere else.  And it isn't going there very fast, so I'd consider this issue solved for now.

Offline Gliderjohn

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2022, 08:49:15 PM »
For what it is worth I recently ran my 8V Norge (post about 2,500 miles since last oil change) 1,500 miles at 75-85 actual MPH in mostly 85-95 degree temps and appears on the oil stick that I may have used a few tablespoons of oil. My T-3 with Nickasil lined cylinders uses no oil between changes that you can tell by dipstick check. Modern engines are wonderful.
GliderJohn
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Offline Warren Rhen

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2022, 02:01:57 AM »

Again, considering the amount of expansion and contraction that occurs in an air cooled engine, I expect some oil usage. If my V7 continues to use oil at this rate it won’t bother me a bit. It just means all of the rings are getting lubricated  :boozing:
Amen
Cheers,
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Online brother dave

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2022, 07:59:26 AM »
I noticed the level had dropped from max to about halfway to min at about 8k miles. Upon inspection noted oil seeping out along the generator cover and oil pan. Torqued the bolts (gen to 11 nm and pan to 12 nm). A number of bolts were loose. Filled the oil back up (100ml). It seems to have stoped.
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Offline DAMMAG

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2022, 04:13:55 PM »
I serviced a V85 at work yesterday. 32000 Km's. Supposedly serviced every 10000 Km's.

Customer complained that the oil sensor alarm was on the dash.

I removed the filter and the oil drain plug at the rear of the sump and got 500 mL of oil (treacle almost) out of the bike.

New filter, 1.7L of 10w60 and you could only just make out the oil level in the sight glass as the glass is so dirty.

Anyway. Took it for a test ride and went fine with no undue noise. You have to wonder about damage to the motor after that though.

Damian.

Offline Cam3512

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2022, 07:25:02 PM »
Just rode the V85 from Jersey to Florida and back.  Over 2,000 miles.  Temps ranged from 37-78 F.  Mostly cool averaged 55-60 F.  Only short bursts on the slab, but still high revs on secondary roads.   Barely burned a drop (13+K miles on the bike).  I do think ambient temps (HOT vs COOL/COLD) makes a difference on consumption.  Just my unscientific opinion.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 07:33:05 PM by Cam3512 »
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Offline tommy2cyl

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Re: V85TT Oil Consumption
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2022, 06:51:43 AM »
Did a compression test yesterday on my V 85.  Right at 179 lbs each side, identical.  So, I guess this is good?  Couple questions:
1. Does anyone know what is normal compression range for these bikes?  I know compression rate is 10.5:1 for our motors but don't know
    what is normal range for the bike when measured. (Not sure how 10.5:1 correlates to compression test of 179 lbs)
2. I have read and I understand the difference between a compression test and leak down test.  What I don't fully understand is that if a compression test is
    within normal limits, is a leak down test necessary?  I have read different opinions on this. I know leak down test measures loss over time and will help isolate loss location ie intake, exhaust, piston rings but also read that if compression test is good you are good to go. 
 
Note: 1900 ml consumed in 17,000 miles.

I am not a mechanic and it has been awhile since I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express so always open to hear from the smart folks and learn something.

 

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