T-3 engine/transmission reassembly question

[elvisboy77]

I  am in the process of putting the T-3 back together after replacing the clutch, and am stuck again.  Ugh.  I used my clutch alignment tool (from MG cycle) to install the clutch discs and compress the springs. The discs  sure look lined up with each other.

Everything is ready to go back together, but in trying to mate the transmission input gear to the engine, I cannot get the gear to mate with the clutch disc hubs!  I have wiggled the transmission output shaft (in gear) and all manner of other cajoling to no effect.  I can say when sliding the old clutch discs over the transmission input shaft gear, it is a really close fit.

Do you have any tips for lining this thing up?  I cannot get the engine out of the bike, front through bolt is frozen solid. I'm sure that adds to the problem. I am hoping you all will point out the error of my ways.  There is nothing external interfering, I triple checked that.

I did this a while ago on my 850 Eldo and had nowhere near this trouble.

Thanks for any guidance!

[nbags]

try rotating engine by hand or put trans in gear and turn output sahft

[Tom H]

Might be a silly question....Are the new clutch plates deep or shallow splined? As in do they match the trans input?

Tom

[Don G]

One time I had a new deep spline clutch hub, no way would it enter into the clutch plate(correct plates), upon close inspection I found that the hub had been dropped at one time and a couple of the teeth had been damaged, check every thing again.  DonG

[guzzisteve]

I would start again, take out the cup and install tool. I use an old hub for mine, it has a bush around the bolt and a large thick washer that goes against pressure  plate where cup goes. When I snug up the bolt it pushed plat in making the discs loose. Then I spin the hub tool on the bolt which seems to line stuff up better. I hold flywheel still while backing bolt out.
I've always spun the plates.
I can say some go right in & others are a royal pain. Have the trans strait going in not on a tilt. Good luck.
I also made a tool to turn trans output shaft out of a stripped driveshaft sleeve w/handle, works good.

[pehayes]

I had a similar tough one once.  I understand your engine is stuck in the frame so this might not work for you.  I had a loose engine and balanced it on its nose on some blocks.  I set the transmission in place.  I inserted a long rod, similar to the throwout rod.  I whacked on that rod with a hammer.  This caused the clutch to 'release' for a fraction of a second, the plates to align to the hub, and the transmission dropped in to position.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[elvisboy77]

Ugh!  I bought the new style clutch discs from MG cycle and failed to realize that I needed a new spline gear to match. Once I took everything back apart it was obvious.

The adventure continues, thanks to everyone for your input.

And no, I ain't quitting my day job yet LOL

[elvisboy77]

Might be a silly question....Are the new clutch plates deep or shallow splined? As in do they match the trans input?

Tom

No, Tom it is a good question and helped me answer my "silly" problem.

[Tom H]

Well...the new style is supposed to be better. Or maybe they will exchange for the right spline size?

If you bought the SD clutch plates, you MAY end up with an issue with the clutch push rod length. Search the site or maybe someone will come in and remind us of what the fix is. You may have no problem at all, just something to look at before you put the bike back together and find the clutch doesn't work right. One fix might be going with the double O ring outer body?

Let us know how this comes out!!
Tom

[elvisboy77]

Well...the new style is supposed to be better. Or maybe they will exchange for the right spline size?

If you bought the SD clutch plates, you MAY end up with an issue with the clutch push rod length. Search the site or maybe someone will come in and remind us of what the fix is. You may have no problem at all, just something to look at before you put the bike back together and find the clutch doesn't work right. One fix might be going with the double O ring outer body?

Let us know how this comes out!!
Tom

Great catch and yes, I did see that and realize I needed the double o ring outer body.  So, I think I got the right discs but did not realize I also needed to swap splined transmission gears.  Does that make sense??

[pehayes]

I, for one, will tip my hat and compliment you for admitting this oversight error.  Most people who post here would quietly sneak off into the corner, make the necessary correction, and never report back in to conceal shame.  Nice of you to close the loop so others can be fully informed.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Tom H]

Been thinking about the thicker SD friction disc issue. Again you MAY not have an issue when you use the stock outer body, I just wanted to mention it in case.

IIRR, the issue is that the clutch push rod ends up too short when the SD plates are new. The double O ring outer body may solve this.

If you were to take a set of brand new stock Guzzi friction plates and put the clutch assy. together, then measure from the ring gear down to the pressure plate you would get (JUST FOR A NUMBER NOT A CORRECT MEASUREMENT) 1". Then you take and swap the frictions to the SD and you would get let's say 1 1/4". This would make the clutch push rod 1/4" too short.

I think this shows up when you bolt the trans back on and find that the clutch lever on the back of the trans will hit the trans before it actually starts to open/release the clutch plates. The adjuster on the lever is not long enough to make the adjustment.

Again...IF... you find this problem with your stock push rod, inner/outer body the longer outer may solve it.

Also, don't toss out the stock outer if you change this. In 50,000 miles or whatever and the clutch wears, you may need to change back to the shorter part.

I hope you don't have this issue. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

Good luck!
Tom

[pete roper]

I, for one, will tip my hat and compliment you for admitting this oversight error.  Most people who post here would quietly sneak off into the corner, make the necessary correction, and never report back in to conceal shame.  Nice of you to close the loop so others can be fully informed.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Indeed. Everyone screws up from time. Sniveling off and trying to hide it just makes you look like a wanker. Having a laugh at one's own expense garners respect and helps distribute knowledge.

Pete

[elvisboy77]

Indeed. Everyone screws up from time. Sniveling off and trying to hide it just makes you look like a wanker. Having a laugh at one's own expense garners respect and helps distribute knowledge.

Pete

Thank you both for the kind words.  I really do feel stupid.  I have turned my share of wrenches on cars, motorbikes, air conditioners etc etc etc but between age and diabetes I am not at 59 years old the guy I was at 35 when I did the Eldorado!  Bad eyesight, sore back etc makes it a lot worse.

Interestingly enough, I called the local shop to see if they would do the job when I first got the problem and they said they couldn't do it because their parts fiche didn't go back that far or something (???).  They recommended another local person who does bike repairs but HE talked me into doing it! 

So now I have about $500 in specialty tools to install a $100 clutch.......and egg on my face for goofing up the splines.  MG Cycle's website called them "deep splines" which I took to mean the depth of the hub, not the length of the splines.  Oh, well so here I am.  As I told my friend last night at least I have a solution.

I will check out the push rod length and make sure I am good there.

Thanks to everyone for encouragement and laughing along with me!

Oh and I would be remiss to not thank Charles Mullendore for his patient coaching!

JMK

[Rod]

Hi John, Glad to hear your getting the "T" on the road!
It's amazing how fast you got this issue sorted and how many useful replies received in 1 day! What a great forum.
Yeah, Charlie Rocks. Not sure you ever saw my Eldo completed, but he helped me plenty with that.
I would say 50% of the time I reached out to him or anyone on the forums, just asking the question made the answer dawn on me, with a big "duh..."
Funny how that works.
But it is indeed great to put it out there anyway for others to see.

[MotoG5]

Do you have any tips for lining this thing up?  I cannot get the engine out of the bike, front through bolt is frozen solid. I'm sure that adds to the problem.

Just a suggestion, ran across this a few times in the past. Try removing the nut then spraying it down with petarating oil then use an impact driver on the bolt head to break it loose in the channel. Repeat a few times if needed. Brass drift and hammer on the nut end while using the impact at the same time can help too.