Author Topic: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.  (Read 65547 times)

Offline s1120

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #510 on: October 02, 2020, 07:33:12 AM »
Nice to hear you got a few miles on her anyways.. Im sure the rest can be sorted quickly.

It does just go to show that no matter the care put into something there is still ALWAYS something that bites you!! :)
Paul B

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #511 on: October 02, 2020, 03:44:13 PM »
In all honesty I am hoping it is something I have installed or set up incorrectly (with the ignition as a complete package) which would be an easy fix if I found the problem.

Of course not having any benchmark to gauge against it might actually be running fine, the engine is very smooth running and accelerates briskly but seems odd to me like something is off a little.  (The heavy flywheel is very noticeable)

I will check and reset everything this morning to see if the spark at the plugs looks healthier including the new points which seemed of very average quality as far as fit up. (The contacts are out of alinement by quite a bit and only touch on one side)

Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #512 on: October 03, 2020, 12:37:58 AM »
Plugs checked at 0.023"
Points at 0.017"
Timing reset.
Another cap, rotor and condenser and cranked over (with the plugs out against the engine case)
No change so I guess that is normal.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline s1120

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #513 on: October 03, 2020, 06:49:24 AM »
Of course as per the very first start, it is one push of the button, not endless cranking........ Maybe I am chasing fairies.

Heck... my California Stone you need to crank a bit after its been sitting a few weeks, and thats a modern electronic ing, and FI!
Paul B

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #513 on: October 03, 2020, 06:49:24 AM »

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #514 on: October 05, 2020, 01:59:46 AM »
Looks like it was this bit in the distributor, the shaft was way out of round, fixed.







https://docs.rs-online.com/374e/0900766b800b6bc2.pdf



1.1 mm thick ground both sides.











« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 04:27:07 PM by LesP »
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Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #515 on: October 12, 2020, 01:40:39 PM »
Very interesting Les, do you have a standard ignition box to work with your custom distributor?  And lovely work as always of course.

How did you hold the disk while grinding the second side? Superglue?

Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #516 on: October 12, 2020, 04:20:29 PM »
Very interesting Les, do you have a standard ignition box to work with your custom distributor?  And lovely work as always of course.

How did you hold the disk while grinding the second side? Superglue?

I think Les is building a system like this, only much nicer.
https://youtu.be/Uo5DqKGnZzs
Charlie
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Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #517 on: October 13, 2020, 07:06:41 PM »
Absolutely, this is the work of Tommy Pettersen and am very grateful he took the time to make that video.
I did post the video link but it is probably a page or so back.

On order is an ignition module (Tridon 7 pin TIM018) and another Bosch coil (TCI # 0221122399) so will have to wait for those bits to do a direct comparison.
 #
The wing is 54 and machined so its leading edge is parallel to the sensor on entry and the trailing edge is parallel exiting.
Since this picture I made a small press mandrel to reshape the portion that holds the rotor, it was a little out of shape.



The trigger plate started as 50 x 6 mm steel flat bar (I had some) and was initially cut with a hole saw (boilermaker content)
I wondered if it being fairly close to the sensor it might have a continuous magnetic effect so it has a Acetyl holder and that small disc on top.
Hopefully only the wings will be seen by the sensor now.

I am not sure where it (trigger) should be in relation to the rotor contact so that needs to be looked into then the holes drilled in the alloy flange.
It can be done once it is operational and have the modified cap to see what is going on in there.



I have no idea about these things but with all that commotion going on with the rotor and cap contacts I made this Acetyl disc so it is somewhat isolated from the sensor.



The disc was simply ground (at 6 mm thick) then in the lathe reduced to around 1.3 mm then held via a cap screw against the rotary table jaws to do the the other side.
That would be 90 passes per side., the wings measured via micrometre were within the same 0.001" so will put that down to luck more than anything.
#
The bike runs fine by all accounts but I do not know what fine is really, to me it has an odd feeling and that might be the carburetion off a little or perhaps the advance (5 static / 33 full but at the actual rpm unknown) curve is slow (springs ?) so will have to get some form of rev counter to check that.

Some would say if it is running it is fine  :laugh: but I do not get the stock distributor, it seems like it is modified (hence the long rotor contact compared to a Fiat 500 rotor, short) so wonder what the points dwell is for both cylinders given the one long, one short duration cam on the distributor (to get the 135 with a 180 poles distributor cap)
If this electronic conversion (The dwell and coil saturation set by the module and equal ?) makes a difference then that might be part of it.
#
I did not want to wreck the stock header pipes but have two fittings to weld in for the A/F meter to see what is going on with the jetting (or not) typically the needed location is under the floor boards.
#
I did check the crankshaft end float and it is 0.2mm (0.008") seems about right.

That's about it.

Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #518 on: October 14, 2020, 04:23:12 PM »
Thanks for the post Les,

It looks like something I might have to do also on mine. Let us hear how it works compared to the stock points.

You can make a little pipe for the lamba sensor to install in the back of the exhaust that will loop the exhaust gas around the sensor. It will probably not be as accurate as a plug in the proper position to take the readings, but at least it gives you an idea on how things look. I bought a AFR500 air/fuel kit a while ago but have been too busy with kids, work and restoring the house to try it out.
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #519 on: November 03, 2020, 01:00:48 AM »
My back ordered Bosch TCI coil and TIM018 ignition module turned up so can finish the distributor.
As Dave will know I did some work on the Norton while waiting.

If the right angle drive looks familiar, it is the Moto Guzzi arm that was machined for the shift linkage but a bit of a no surprise failure.
I am doing a new one but with a split and 6 mm pinch bolt so it remains tight.

I needed to machine a jig to make 0.25 mm x 70 mm x 58 mm stainless steel shims to reduce the crankshaft end float down from a loose 0.032" to now acceptable 0.012".























Rods are prepped and ready for a light polish, new forged bolts with new nuts.





Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Online Dave Swanson

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #520 on: November 05, 2020, 03:19:04 PM »
Those rods look to pretty to use!   :cheesy:
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
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Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #521 on: December 09, 2020, 09:03:32 PM »
Just keeping the shine on the inside Dave.  :grin:

The NOS AE pistons got the prep also.



The Postie just dropped these off for the Moto Guzzi so I can get back to addressing the slop in the shift linkage and a new arm to suit them (which was 70% of the problem)
Its probably getting to hot here now to ride old air cooled bikes.
We are lucky that AU is opening the borders again so it is Tasmania on the Africa Twin early next year.



Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Online Dave Swanson

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #522 on: January 17, 2021, 06:46:41 AM »
Just keeping the shine on the inside Dave.  :grin:

The NOS AE pistons got the prep also.


Tell me how you polished those pistons! 
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Vert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2015 Norge GT8V - Beetle-ized
2015 V7 Special - Beetle-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized

MGNOC L-780

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #523 on: February 05, 2021, 03:38:34 PM »
With care Dave, the tops are lapped to a certain lustre, not to shiny, not to not shiny.
Autosol on the sides only and then washed with acetone twice.

Only small things done on the Eldorado, one being another arm for the connection from the FB to the linkage up to the gearbox arm.
This one has a clamp, the first one did not and had a slight amount of slop which was noticeable, this one has 50 mm centres over the 43 mm of the last one and uses a stock ? dog leg connector rod on the riser linkage. (straight before)
The ball joints turned out to be a no go so the stock clevis's are retained with 'maybe 1/4"OD x 1/2" long shouldered bolts replacing the clevis pins.



The arm at the end of the heel toe shifter was worn badly (and will straighten it from some past owner cranking the bolt until it deformed) at the clevis hole so I reamed the old clevis and arm hole oversize.
That meant a custom clevis pin to suit.



Looks like a 47 year old semi neglected parts on the outside.





Then pressed with the fox wedge and splined shaft in place.







The LamontSanfurd sourced Brembo caliper (Moto Guzzi fitment)is now mounted on the Norton via a machined adapter along with titanium hardware.











He also has a set of later alloy rocker plate components in the mail to me which I will fit to the Eldorado.





« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 08:12:14 PM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline 1down5up

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #524 on: February 09, 2021, 07:18:09 PM »
Will those rocker plates fit? I thought the square heads had the cylinder studs pushed further out to allow for larger bore

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #525 on: February 09, 2021, 08:09:44 PM »
No and yes.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 05:12:12 AM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline 1down5up

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #526 on: February 13, 2021, 12:46:53 AM »
Also may be worth checking that the oil galley hole is in the same spot.

The feed for the square heads is obviously different, but not sure if the little rocker feed holes are in the same spot relitive to the stud holes.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #527 on: February 17, 2021, 01:45:50 AM »
I will look into it when they get here, nearly two weeks and still in the processing stage of USPS but a sign of the times unless sent by courier.

There is no real interest in this sort of thing so pretty much flagged it but have prepped up the electronic distributor which has massive amounts of end float on both the main shaft and advance unit which would not suit the hall effect sensor.
There is probably four hours in the rework of a points distributor, this one probably has numerous days all up.
There are quite a few mods to get the advancer very smooth in operation.







The spark plug threads had some wear so with the steel rocker mounts needing removal I might as well do what I should have done last year so will get some M14 -1.25 Time- Serts.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 01:48:55 AM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #528 on: February 18, 2021, 03:27:41 PM »
Looks very good Les,

What caused the high end float and how did you fix it?

-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
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Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #529 on: February 19, 2021, 05:32:47 PM »
The bikes original points distributor needed a bronze shim added (18 x 10 x 1.2 mm) above the camshaft driven drive gear to set the end float at 0.2 mm (0.008") as did this replacement distributor.
The difference was there is a steel shim washer and plastic (or similar, maybe Bakelite) shim washer that the main shaft seats on in the bottom of the distributor body (cup)
Both had those two shims except in the base of the body, the original one is raised for them to seat on, this replacement distributor (which still had the original drive gear pin in place looking untouched) is recessed and it did not look worn so there was still a lot of end float.
I put all the parts in the tin at disassembly so do not think a part (larger washer) was lost (who knows)



I machined a 24 x 12.5 x 1 mm Acetyl washer so it also now has around 0.2 mm end float.
The advance mechanism also had end float so it got a 11 x 7 x 0.75 mm Acetyl shim under it and then the shaft was ground so it has maybe 0.015" float.
The washer raising the unit also made it rotate smoothly which is did not do previously.
There is only around 1 mm above and below the trigger arm plate as it passes through the sensor so it needs to be fairly precise to avoid a drama.



It makes a small noise when the plate is at that exit point so maybe it is close enough (being non adjustable now without upsetting the cap pole to rotor relationship)

The ID of the distributor body is machined so is irreversible (it was not round)





Here is the oddity (folk of the if it manages to start it is fine, look away  :grin:)

Every Loop video I have watched (Except for the one with a C5 ignition) which is probably near all of them on YouTube to me sounded like they had a weak cylinder, not bad weak but something odd sounding, this bike was no different, 99% good but something odd, I will call it a lazy cylinder.

I had bought two of the brown FIRE brand caps and rotors from Italy, these are a very nice cap but of course then found the rotor is not going to work in a Moto Guzzi.
I had wondered why the arm on the that OEM rotor was so long but nothing beyond that until I saw that Fiat rotor.



In the Tommy Pettersen video (A big thanks once again for us electrically challenged folk) it says the sensor signals as the plate leaves it but I needed to see what the cap and rotor were doing at that position so I milled this brand new cap purchased years ago (You know to fit after the oil change, Gilardoni's and ride it in 2012 ?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5DqKGnZzs



This meant I could (with the dual read out ignition degree disc on the front pulley) check that each trigger paddle ? (by eye) looked to be parallel with the sensor at exit on each cylinder (yes they are machined so they are parallel entering and exiting the sensor) and then be able to rotate that unit on the shaft until the cap poles were in the best position for each cylinder (before drilling and fixing the trigger plate to the shaft)

I am hoping it will all work with no rework besides setting with a timing light.



Here (to me) is where it gets murky.
This distributor seems to be altered to work in a 90 V twin and that ? is where that long arm on the rotor comes into it (or not ?)
The arm extension (I forget) either adds or takes way to gain the needed 135 (90 / 180) which a Fiat engine would not need being a parallel twin ?
The narrow and wide (extended?) points cam lobes surely alter the dwell (and ignition coil saturation ?) on each cylinder.

When I put that machined cap on with the points distributor (out of curiosity) it enables the points to be seen and also where the rotor was to the cap poles (at static and fully advanced)
I was amazed the engine manages to run based on the arm to cap pole at those 4 positions and believe that is part of the lazy cylinder sound.

Because the sensor trigger plate allowed it to be positioned at the better all round position then removed for the drilling of the M3 fasteners it should be better but not perfect.
Perhaps this is part of the reason the dual point distributor was introduced.

At this 'point (points distributor) the Eldorado has not only a lighter throttle action (stock springs) but also starts quicker than my F.I Honda Arica Twin. (It would need to do at least one extra cranking turn having a cam shaft position sensor)

Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #530 on: February 19, 2021, 05:46:03 PM »
The short version.
When the distributor body is rotated to set the points opening point it is also altering the relationship between the rotor arm and distributor cap poles.
Not a big problem in a Fiat but in the Moto Guzzi (Loop) that is either adding to or robbing that relationship because each end of the arm is being used.
That I saw with the open top cap.

Maybe this distributor will give me 60 mpg @ 60 mph as a bonus.


Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #531 on: February 20, 2021, 04:06:03 PM »
Anti magnetic (I hope) cups for the M3 dome heads, they will get a smidge of blue Loctite then the cups sealed over with silicone.
Its not that I don't trust electrical parts but maybe I do now.

With the sensor using magnetism to trigger I want that trigger to have as little outside interference as possible.
The metal trigger plate is incased in a Acetyl body and a Acetyl disc locates in the distributor body below the rotor.








« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 03:12:26 AM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #532 on: February 25, 2021, 04:47:25 AM »




Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #533 on: February 25, 2021, 08:17:56 PM »
The California II top end parts arrived today.
All in very nice low mile condition.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #534 on: February 27, 2021, 03:21:34 PM »
Done.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline Scout63

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Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #536 on: February 28, 2021, 03:25:18 PM »
The short version.
When the distributor body is rotated to set the points opening point it is also altering the relationship between the rotor arm and distributor cap poles.
Not a big problem in a Fiat but in the Moto Guzzi (Loop) that is either adding to or robbing that relationship because each end of the arm is being used.
That I saw with the open top cap.

Maybe this distributor will give me 60 mpg @ 60 mph as a bonus.

So the right way to have done it originally was to have a distributor cap with poles 135 degrees apart instead of 180 degrees? And the cost effective solution was to extent the reach/length of the rotor arm tip?

Makes sense that they changed to the dual points distributor that should rule all this out and make it possible to adjust both cylinders accurately.

Thanks for the good write up on the problem and I look forward to hear if your fix solved the problem.

And very nice machining of the intake manifold. TLR/SV1000?
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #537 on: March 07, 2021, 03:26:08 AM »
Also may be worth checking that the oil galley hole is in the same spot.

The feed for the square heads is obviously different, but not sure if the little rocker feed holes are in the same spot relative to the stud holes.

The oil feed holes are at the same location, only the stud spacing moved.

On the steel mounts 98.5 mm x 57 mm.
On the California II mounts 104 mm x 60 mm.







« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 01:07:05 AM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #538 on: March 07, 2021, 03:34:08 AM »
So the right way to have done it originally was to have a distributor cap with poles 135 degrees apart instead of 180 degrees? And the cost effective solution was to extent the reach/length of the rotor arm tip?

Makes sense that they changed to the dual points distributor that should rule all this out and make it possible to adjust both cylinders accurately.

Thanks for the good write up on the problem and I look forward to hear if your fix solved the problem.

And very nice machining of the intake manifold. TLR/SV1000?

It is probably not a problem to most folk if the engine runs with the stock distributor.

There is still the rotor to cap pole limitation with the Tommy Pettersen modded distributor but with trigger plate being movable (until pinned) some mucking around with the open top cap got a better position which can not be done with the stock version.

#
Those manifolds were to suit Honda SP1 TB's and later got 61 mm SP2 TB's.
I have two 1998 TL1000S's, one bought in 2000, the other in 2004, both in the lock up along with H2's and bevel Ducati's.
Covid has put a stop to any chance of getting them in a shipping container until ? 2022.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #539 on: March 08, 2021, 01:55:01 AM »
There is little point posting this in the main forum.

I noticed this video today having Moto Guzzi in my YouTube.

Not only was the old filter not particularly tight but the new one might have gone on two turns.
The thread pitch on the to short from the Moto Guzzi factory spigot in the sump is 1.5 or two turns of the filter would be only 3 mm of engagement.

No wonder they can loosen (apparently)
My sump is modified so the filter screws on at least 4 turns (probably more but forget) or more than double the amount of the stock set up. (8 mm iirc)

Anyone get it ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiCN9sM9BzY
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

 

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