Author Topic: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.  (Read 95820 times)

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2019, 02:38:14 PM »
I have the later lifters purchased years ago when the original version was not available along with the later adjusters.

But...
The later new adjusters have a smaller diameter than the ones that were in the G5 (iirc) rockers I got back who knows when. (I will assume those adjusters are OEM Moto Guzzi) so will have to compare them again as far as the radius and the adjusters that are still in the original 850 rockers.

I should have just got new later model push rods long ago. (The ones from KB (short upper cup) are NOS factory but only two) I have a set of those but one ball end has worn so the radius is tighter so rocks in the lifter cup so will use two of the good ones and one for a spare. (One in the bin)
Buying used parts was false economy and should have known better (The exception would be some people know a good part from bad)

The reflections make things look worse, three are OK but that end one had been running on its tip.
 





LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2019, 05:18:26 PM »
I have a set of later manifolds to put PHF32's on to .........but that is for a later date, the one way after where the engine runs.



Offline Pescatore

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 353
  • Location: Reading, Massachusetts
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2019, 02:47:04 PM »
:thumb:



I recognize the clutch parts, same in small blocks (V65).
Do you use that grease or does the transmission oil keep
the flat bearings lubed?
2008 Norge 1200
1991 V65GT
1980 CM400T
MGNOC Member
Ascolta sempre e solo musica vera
E cerca sempre se puoi di capire

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2019, 03:16:05 PM »
That area must see oil in service but wiped the o-ring with rubber grease so the unit slid in smoothly, I packed the thrust washer with Suzuki branded Moly paste. (As a rule except on the DCT AT select neutral at a stop so the bearing will only be under load at gear shifts)
The five O-rings for the push rod also got rubber grease.

The Eldorado is probably a week or less from starting but I got a call (recommended) from a race team who has a problem (What they want to do has no off the shelf part it seems) and could I help them, even bringing the bike a considerable round trip to look at......... I said why not (A billet fuel injection rail ) 
I have been getting a little to laid back with my bike so a job with some urgency might get me back on track.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2019, 03:16:05 PM »

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2019, 04:27:56 PM »
Did I mention, second battery @ $250 so will tie it in with rope to save funds.


Offline balvenie

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2045
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #215 on: November 16, 2019, 07:28:27 PM »
Nuthin' wrong with rope Les :grin: :thumb:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #216 on: November 19, 2019, 04:55:38 PM »
That was a bit of work and swarf but done......... I also got an email saying the Norton front brake rotor I dropped off in August for Blanchard grinding is done also... gosh.





A bit different to the piece of 40 mm by 25 mm flat bar it started as.... Now back to that old Moto by Guzzi.





LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #217 on: November 25, 2019, 05:13:25 AM »
We are back on to the worlds most expensive Eldorado that is not being restored.

I was inspired enough to burn some midnight oil and finish the 4th axis of the DRO via a machined block for 8 mm linear bearings and bunch of other time consuming bit along with the usual pile of swarf.... My next major machining project will be a CNC conversion.

I picked the Norton's front brake rotor up from machining @ $128... It looks good for 46 years old.
The Moto Guzzi brakes shoes should be back before christmas.









LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #218 on: December 09, 2019, 05:44:29 PM »


Remember this pic.
This was a good lesson to not get your torque wrench out some time after using it to get a now 'staged pic to go with the 100's of others.... and set it to the wrong torque.
Without a long story, even when you are 99% sure you torqued the ring gear bolts correctly a picture can be worth a thousand words and a ton of 'Did I ? (I had considered not bothering as I bolted more parts on)

There was only one way to know for sure and they were torqued to the correct 30 n/m (22 ft/lbs) and not the 42 n/m (30 ft/lbs) of the 'staged pic.......... after removing the gearbox to check and another set of new bolts installed.



I will say it was a walk in the park, all those lubricated studs and bolts came out like a better than new bike, the homemade clutch tool which I actually put somewhere that I remembered worked great once again.
Engine raised a little to get up and over the front mount frame bushes to so it could go forward and the swing arm pivots out and arm rearward made it an easy job with all back how it was.

I find I can not get #130 5 mm main jets so next job is to modify the jet holders to suit later 6 mm jets.... If only MG Cycle was within riding distance.


LesP

  • Guest
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 10:10:36 PM by LesP »

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #220 on: December 10, 2019, 10:08:27 PM »
Stock 5 mm thread #130 jets for VHB's are apparently not available in Australia.
I got the later 6 mm mains but elected to use a 5.1 mm tapping drill.... One main slide spring is MIA.



LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #221 on: December 15, 2019, 07:41:51 PM »
Another year draws to a close, the lost VHB slide spring is still lost so I ordered two new ones this morning for new year delivery and got Mario to send me a in stock new spline insert for the rear wheel which I had debated on for some time.
A cush drive rear hub would be nice.

Today is finish the ignition switch relocation via a machined from Acetal body, no word yet on the brake shoes sent for relining.



LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #222 on: December 16, 2019, 08:54:42 PM »
I've had zero issues with using the "crap cast" rear main bearings, I'm not sure what is really to be gained by using the fancy billet one.

I was doing a google search and somewhat ironic it opened on this post.

It was HMB (on the phone) who told me the cast rear bearings were crap/junk and something about being made in China .. for the record.

Edit..
But enough about those knob jockeys at HMB.

The phone rang and my relined brake shoes will be in the mail by the morning from Sydney (BCA Friction Materials)
It was a pleasure to talk to people more than keen to make sure you had the information needed to resize the shoes and bedding in procedure (At least a 20 minute call which means over half an hour)
I will send them the brake shoes out of my 1949 S7 Deluxe for relining which will get the MZ Gold lining having steel drums, the Moto Guzzi got some other compound (with a long number) and was told it was a good thing I included detailed information as this compound will perform better.
I am almost excited.  :laugh:

The new splined rear wheel hub will most likely be on its way also but not smart debating over it going back to when the wheels were bare hubs (I laced and trued them myself)
There is a possibility the 4140 bearing spacer tubes (no shims) I machined might not be correct in a replacement hub but you never know your luck.
The clock resets come January 1st 2020.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:58:59 PM by LesP »

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #223 on: December 16, 2019, 11:46:31 PM »
It occurred to me to check the front porch for a delivery.
Thanks Mario at Thunderbike Motorcycles over there in Perth.
Ordered yesterday, at the door in under 24 hours and so smooth and shiny.

The spline in the final drive seems to be in excellent condition, this new wheel hub confirms I should have got a new one months ago but you can't rush these things.





LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #224 on: December 16, 2019, 11:51:56 PM »
The eagle eyed of my two thread followers  :laugh: :laugh: might note I went back and removed the tin fold over locking tabs and replaced them with wave washers and 'blue Loctite torqued to the correct tension which eludes me at the moment.
Will they loosen and fall out, surely not.
All is good in the world of Eldorado today.

Offline Rick4003

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Location: Denmark
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #225 on: December 17, 2019, 04:08:03 AM »
Looks good all of it. Although I think we are more than two following  :thumb: It just gets old with the same old looking good comment  :bow: Appreciate you're taking the time to post.
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #226 on: December 17, 2019, 05:27:20 AM »
I have to admit, sometimes I wonder if this thread will ever end.  :laugh: :laugh: (Charlie would have it done by the weekend)

As a test I removed the wheel bearings and seals (to be replaced with more new ones) machined a quick mandrel (48 mm - 0.05 mm or so) put it into the bore of the old inner hub, heated the alloy for some time with a heat gun and then hit the mandrel with a reasonable sized hammer, the result was surprising.

Not one micron of movement... yikes, two more blows and the same... It will need more thought.

My sister asked if I will fly over (NZ) for Christmas but I will stay here with a trip to the city tomorrow to get enough bits for the duration.... It needs to be done by January, January 2020 that is.


Offline Pescatore

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 353
  • Location: Reading, Massachusetts
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #227 on: December 17, 2019, 05:34:27 PM »
Are the nuts/bolts that you replaced original parts, or do you order from places like McMaster-Carr?
I will be reinstalling a cleaned up V65 engine and I would like the visible bolts, hex screws, etc. to look new.
I have bought original stuff so far.  Some people on this forum recommend that.
I am not sure what to order for metal/strength... etc.  I did read not to use stainless.
2008 Norge 1200
1991 V65GT
1980 CM400T
MGNOC Member
Ascolta sempre e solo musica vera
E cerca sempre se puoi di capire

Offline balvenie

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2045
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #228 on: December 17, 2019, 07:54:51 PM »
Looks good all of it. Although I think we are more than two following  :thumb: It just gets old with the same old looking good comment  :bow: Appreciate you're taking the time to post.

What he said, Les. I really enjoy it :grin: :thumb:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Rick4003

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
  • Location: Denmark
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #229 on: December 18, 2019, 08:25:14 AM »
I have to admit, sometimes I wonder if this thread will ever end.  :laugh: :laugh: (Charlie would have it done by the weekend)

As a test I removed the wheel bearings and seals (to be replaced with more new ones) machined a quick mandrel (48 mm - 0.05 mm or so) put it into the bore of the old inner hub, heated the alloy for some time with a heat gun and then hit the mandrel with a reasonable sized hammer, the result was surprising.

Not one micron of movement... yikes, two more blows and the same... It will need more thought.



Perhaps you could put the whole wheel hub in an oven to heat the whole thing up and then press the bearing hub out with a press or a big hammer if you don't have a press (yet) :grin: The aluminium should expand more than the steel and loosen up a bit. Even if they will be same temperature after heating.

I'm curious about your z-axis DRO setup. From what I can figure out the scale itself it fixed and you are moving the sensor head up and down with the quill movement? Is that correct? Is there a rod that is hidden behind the two linear rails the sensor head slides on?
Does your mill have z-axis movement only in the quill or is it with a movable knee? 
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

canuck750

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #230 on: December 18, 2019, 09:44:43 AM »
Your engineering / machinist skills are excellent and inspiring, I wish I had the skills to use my lathe and mill for making more than spacers and drilling holes :bow: :bow: :bow:

I would bet your bike will be the finest mechanical example in existence :thumb:

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #231 on: December 20, 2019, 04:43:59 AM »






The original 14 mm shaft and bushes were quite worn and not sure how it ever lined up with the welded arm 8 mm past the one on the gearbox and also mismatched the other way.
The bearings are installed (21x12x5) and I had a spare shaft (15 mm from a stock shift) I put it up between centres, machined to 11.99 mm and the end ground for two flat and the end machined for a 6 mm lock nut.





If they ever wear out replacement will be off the shelf parts with no extra work, it will need a machined arm for attachment to the shift arm on the gearbox.
The brake and shift pedals have the same bearings.





« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 10:46:27 PM by LesP »

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #232 on: December 22, 2019, 04:16:55 AM »
Are the nuts/bolts that you replaced original parts, or do you order from places like McMaster-Carr?
I will be reinstalling a cleaned up V65 engine and I would like the visible bolts, hex screws, etc. to look new.
I have bought original stuff so far.  Some people on this forum recommend that.
I am not sure what to order for metal/strength... etc.  I did read not to use stainless.

We can only dream of a source like McMaster-Carr here in Australia (New bolts etc is a 120 km return trip to the city)
I have tried to reuse as much as what was on the bike when I got, most were cleaned up with a wood handle brass bristle wire (hand) brush (works great on alloy also) that or 00000 steel wool with WD40 or kerosene...... some I did replace (zinc) with new but soaked them in white vinegar to grey them a bit but you had to be careful as one batch/brand had a high 'chinesium content and the vinegar removed the zinc in  matter of hours.

Stainless is not that bad (but lower strength grade mostly) but not for this bike as it is more a mechanical restoration all chrome was treated to tin foil (alu foil?) and water, any shiny alloy has been done to the minimal (no polishing mops) and to what might be how it was when new + 40 years (no mirror finishes or material removal)
It is probably cleaner or shinier on the inside.

Most zinc bolts will be grade 4.9 or 8.8... 8.8 is fine for most things but if used in a low stress application (where a 4.9 would be fine) and torqued to a 4.9 spec it can be of no real gain (not stretched) and depending on what it is going into and how much thread engagement, pulling threads might be pulled if torqued to spec in alloy.
In sating that I saw 8.8 on 90% of what I removed, the exception might be the 4.9 1/4 inch bolt someone used on one of the neutral switch bolts (Both helcoiled to M6/1 now)





Perhaps you could put the whole wheel hub in an oven to heat the whole thing up and then press the bearing hub out with a press or a big hammer if you don't have a press (yet) :grin: The aluminium should expand more than the steel and loosen up a bit. Even if they will be same temperature after heating.

I'm curious about your z-axis DRO setup. From what I can figure out the scale itself it fixed and you are moving the sensor head up and down with the quill movement? Is that correct? Is there a rod that is hidden behind the two linear rails the sensor head slides on?
Does your mill have z-axis movement only in the quill or is it with a movable knee?

I think you might have seen this pic on ADV Rider, the extra 8 mm rod was hidden.
The complete head raises and lowers (and tilts) also so that has a 500 mm scale.

I will get back to the hub next week, I got six 150 mm long M8 8.8 bolts that could pass through the existing holes (sliding fit) with a thick alloy ring on the push side (some other ring at the out side perhaps greater OD than the hub itself that bolts would anchor to)
I could then use a large 3 leg puller to that bolted ring, the puller could then push on the mandrel into the bearing step of the steel insert ....... with heat on the wheel hub.
It is very tight it seems and would not want to risk breaking the wheel hub.
It might be easier to strip the wheel back to the hub, in the oven and use my china hydraulic press.



Balvenie and Jim... I will keep bluffing my way through the machining (thanks for the vote of confidence all the same) and there has been quite a bit, I am not sure I could have done as much if at all without the mill/drill and lathe starting with the modifications for the oil filter and various tools to make things easier as you went.
Merry Christmas to all.  :thumb: :thumb:



LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #233 on: December 22, 2019, 04:23:26 AM »
I should mention how old school is this...

I had phoned BCA Friction Materials some time ago and spoken to Leon in the area that makes it happen.

They (Robyn) rung me last Tueday to say they were done and had then put me through to Leon as mentioned up the page, he gave me the low down on bedding in the shoes and also had an interesting chat on old bikes and brakes in general.
He mentioned mid conversation that the shoes had been posted early that morning Express post so I got them ASAP, (I thanked him of course) he then transferred me back to Robyn at the front desk to arrange payment (bank transfer)
That's right, they were in the post before I payed for the job.
They arrived Friday.

I did take a quick look today but arcing the shoes will take a bit of set up as far as anchoring the shoes (the springs will not be enough so some form of turn buckles perhaps)
Of course some caution will be needed come time to grind them (In the mill and rotary table) , I would not like to have to send them back for re re lining.  :grin:

« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 04:33:33 AM by LesP »

Offline Frenchfrog

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #234 on: December 22, 2019, 05:00:52 AM »
Well Les you have certainly called my bluff with all this work !!!! Like some of the others I'm impressed and admirative of your skills and persistence in achieving perfection !!!

Offline radguzzi

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 7301
  • N 44° 01.233 W 069° 41.267 ~ Midcoast, Maine USA
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #235 on: December 22, 2019, 12:59:14 PM »

 Like some of the others I'm impressed and admirative of your skills and persistence in achieving perfection !!!


Agreed. seems that Les is the consummate perfectionist.  Absolutely beautiful work.  Wow...!
Current:
2004 EV Touring
'99 EV Hack
'76 V1000 'Vert
'80 SP 1000
2013 Harley FLHTC
'75 Triumph T160 Trident
'78 Triumph T140V Bonneville
'78 Yamaha XS 650
'88 Honda Hawk GT
'84 RZ350 KR
'71 Dalesman Trials

A VeeDub and an MGB...

The Journey is the Reward

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #236 on: December 25, 2019, 05:26:09 PM »
I will try harder next time Rob.... I think a perfectionist would have touched up the scraped paint on the lower frame rails or done something with the starter motor paint wise.

All I have done is addressed what was 'broken and that was nearly everything.
The shifter is done including a new arm at 42.5 mm centres and the (stock) linkage from it to the gearbox shortened and extra M7 / 1 thread added so all the levers are in a neutral resting fulcrum.

Today is remove the new rear tyre/tire, strip the wheel to the hub and look at replacing the inner hub which is crazy tight like it has Loctite ........then re lace and true it and move onto arcing the ($267.64) re lined brake shoes.. I picked up a Norton #40 grit sanding belt at the local hardware store and will machine a drum for it fixed with contact adhesive.







LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #237 on: December 25, 2019, 08:28:58 PM »
Lets go.... on another figure 8.  :grin:

The bead broke easy, the tube came out easy (talcum powder)... The hub stripped easy with never seize on the spoke threads.... about 20 minutes.

It will get a shake and bake after lunch and I will hope the gods will be on my side come time to press that old inner.



Edit..

Done, baked and pressed out, there was no way this would have come out without a press and it creaked all the way.... There was some form of nickel based anti seize used at the factory ? (luckily) or maybe this new one will be the third insert.... or maybe someone removed the good one it might have had and pushed this worn out one in before selling the bike  somewhere in the past.

 

For you more budget orientated MotoGuzziIsts I will let this old spline hub one go for US$8.  :grin:

« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 09:30:42 PM by LesP »

LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #238 on: December 25, 2019, 09:33:13 PM »







LesP

  • Guest
Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #239 on: December 26, 2019, 04:35:52 AM »
Reassembly of the rear wheel hub went like a dream.

I measured the bore of the wheel and the new spline insert 54.06 mm (The old one was 54.07 or more +0004"+)

Hub got 15 minutes in the fan oven @ 100C then 10 minutes soak time with the oven off.

The new steel  insert got around an hour in the freezer and then was left to stand for 15 minutes on the counter top until wiping it left no residue (ice or moisture)
It has reduced to 54.03 mm. (Mitutoyo micrometer, a real one Made in Japan)
It got a very light rub with Suzuki branded Moly Paste to the portion that would seat in the wheel hub, the under side of the flange remained clean for maximum clamping friction (like a car wheel)

The heated hub got the same to the bore (Moly Paste) using a lint free rag to rub it on (its hot)

Based on the numbers, the press would not be needed.

The six M8 (150 long) bolts I got the other day were dropped into the holes in the inserts flange.
They were long enough to then go into the wheel hub holes with the insert not touching.
The six M8 factory bolts at the ready.

Now or never.
The wheel hub is face up on the bench.
Down goes the insert with a push and seats like a dream, the bolts making sure the holes line up without drama.

The stock bolts were placed one at a time and seated with a alloy drift (a flat facing inward)
Nuts applied to two of the bolts and seated.
I dropped the wheel bearing outer races in as the heat had soaked into the insert by now.

It then went to the press and got a light pressure to the top of the insert and left until it has cooled off.
I elected to use red Loctite, nuts  torqued to 38 N/M.

I was going to re lace and true the wheel but will do the brake shoe grinding first and will need to recheck the NOS wheel bearings are still to spec  with the 4140 spacers I machined for the original insert.

I never took any pictures as you need to work fast, as soon as the cold inner touches hot things start to happen.

 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here