Mystery no-start on Breva 1100 (again)

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

After a long hot day working the pit.. I quickly showered and took a quick tear down the BRP to cool my brain in the evening air.

About one hour ride.. All seemed well, I was actually thinking how great the Breva has been running. Then I stopped at a brewery about 2mi from my house on the way home to replace my hat. I had one beer and bought a new hat.  When I went to leave my bike refused to start.  Being dark,, late, and me exhausted... I just walked home.

1. This is the second time this has happened
2. Turn key, needle sweep, fuel pump runs
3. Hit the start button, faint click from under the seat but nothing else.. Starter doesn't turn.

4. Last time this happened, Dean Rose told me to switch one of the 20a fuses behind the battery (1 of 3 can't remember which one ATM)..  I checked and switched every fuse in that block to no avail.. As well as the two 30a   All the fuses look good.

5. Battery is fully charged, connections are clean and tight. It was dark last night but I got the fuses and grounds checked at least.

6. My bike has never exhibited 'startus interruptus'. This is the second time it's done this to me... I got it rolling last time by switching a single fuse as Dean suggested.. I didn't use any startus interruptus work-arounds to remedy it. So still not convinced I have startus interruptus (if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck?)

7. PLEASE don't tell me to use the search.. The search function is barely usable on the desktop version of this site... Thru mobile/tapatalk it's completely worthless.

8. IIRC the fix here is to jump a wire direct from Pos battery to the starter. Can anyone confirm that with possibly a little more detail? Electrics are not my strong point.

Any help greatly appreciated





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[lorazepam]

Did the headlight dim when pushing the starter? IF so, then the issue would be in the starter, and not the power to it. If the headlight and other lights did not dim, it would be a connection or the relay to the starter. You could try tapping on the starter with a hammer, and see if it will start. Not an I'm pissed off beating, but a few taps. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

My bike has never exhibited 'startus interruptus'.

Until now.  ;D I'll do a search for you and be back.

This thread should do it..
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=70672.0

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Thanks for that Chuck!
I have subscribed to that tread so I can find it in the future...
I will order up a kit and get that installed!  ;-T


Now in the meanwhile, can anyone tell me how to just do this with a wire??  These kits are in Houston and my bike is sitting in the dustyest parking lot in town on a beautiful sunday  ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for that Chuck!
I have subscribed to that tread so I can find it in the future...
I will order up a kit and get that installed!  ;-T


Now in the meanwhile, can anyone tell me how to just do this with a wire??  These kits are in Houston and my bike is sitting in the dustyest parking lot in town on a beautiful sunday  ;D

It's detailed in Guzziology, but I'm headed out the door on the Aero Lario as we speak. If someone else doesn't get to you, I'll be back later this evening.

[biking sailor]

Try it again, as sometimes mine would begin working correctly for unknown reason.

I ran a wire from the positive battery terminal thru a fuse to a push start button I picked up at Autozone. From the button I ran the wire to the positive solenoid lead on the starter. Turn on the key, wait for everything to cycle and if the starter did 't work, I would pop off the seat like I had forgot something there, redo the key switch and hit the autozone button to start the bike. Replace seat and go on like nothing happened. Never had an issue being stuck after that.

I did the startups Interuptus to no joy. I still think my issue may have been the tip over switch that doesn't kill the bike, only prevents it from starting. Weird logic if you ask me.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Try it again, as sometimes mine would begin working correctly for unknown reason.

I ran a wire from the positive battery terminal thru a fuse to a push start button I picked up at Autozone. From the button I ran the wire to the positive solenoid lead on the starter. Turn on the key, wait for everything to cycle and if the starter did 't work, I would pop off the seat like I had forgot something there, redo the key switch and hit the autozone button to start the bike. Replace seat and go on like nothing happened. Never had an issue being stuck after that.

I did the startups Interuptus to no joy. I still think my issue may have been the tip over switch that doesn't kill the bike, only prevents it from starting. Weird logic if you ask me.

Thanks,
thru search im seeing that the lead goes from +battery to YELLOW wire on solenoid???  does that sound right??  Also, how stiff of a fuse?

Going down to work on it now, got my wire and tools..

It's funny you mention the tip over switch..  when I put it on the sidestand last night, it was leaning WAAY over..  (uneven ground) and that point even crossed my mind. I was too tired to think last night, sure i'll get it sorted today, thanks for the info.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Here's what had me so wore out yesterday

Friday 5pm


9pm Friday (fireworks are from the Asheville Tourists game ending)


8am Saturday


11am Saturday


Noon Saturday, ready for service



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[Kev m]

I really described it ad nauseum in the Startus Interruptus thread (including listing wire colors and including photos). Basically you just need to run fused battery power to the power supply portion of the Starter Relay under the right rear portion of the tank.

Just because it had never happened to you is no reason to think it won't in the future. It's more likely the older the battery gets and even the older the wiring gets.

Lorazep - the light on a Breva 1100 (and most modern Guzzis) would never dim with the starter motor because it doesn't turn ON until after the motor is running.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

It lives! Thanks for the guidance. Wire across the relay as described in the threads d it. I guess I do I fact have startus interruptus so I will be riding with my wire in the tank bag until my kit arrives from mph!


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[Chuck in Indiana]

Whew! Had me worried. It looked like you had a body wrapped up in the back of the pickup.. :o I thought, "No wonder you're worn out.."  ;D

[Kiwi Dave]

Thanks,
thru search im seeing that the lead goes from +battery to YELLOW wire on solenoid???  does that sound right??  Also, how stiff of a fuse?

No, not the solenoid, the yellow wire on the starter relay.  It is the only relay with a yellow wire connected.  You can feel the click when you push the start button.

Cut the yellow wire, and graft a wire from the positive of the battery via an in-line fuse to the yellow wire going to the relay.  The fuse rating should be 15A or even 20A.

Insulate the remaining portion of the yellow wire, or use it for a switched power source for low currents.

A get-you-home trick I have used in the past, is to connect a wire to the battery positive, then push the starter button until the click of the starter relay is heard.  Then brush the back of fuse B with the other end of the wire.  I've even used the helmet holder lead supplied under the seat to do this.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Whew! Had me worried. It looked like you had a body wrapped up in the back of the pickup.. :o I thought, "No wonder you're worn out.."  ;D

My wife and I are watching the Sopranos again.  I thought the same thing.

[lorazepam]

I really described it ad nauseum in the Startus Interruptus thread (including listing wire colors and including photos). Basically you just need to run fused battery power to the power supply portion of the Starter Relay under the right rear portion of the tank.

Just because it had never happened to you is no reason to think it won't in the future. It's more likely the older the battery gets and even the older the wiring gets.

Lorazep - the light on a Breva 1100 (and most modern Guzzis) would never dim with the starter motor because it doesn't turn ON until after the motor is running.

thanks! I am a guzzi noob, and still learning about these machines. Just passing on things that I have tried in the past. This is a great forum, and I have enjoyed reading the posts here. Seems like a great bunch of guys.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

No, not the solenoid, the yellow wire on the starter relay.  It is the only relay with a yellow wire connected.  You can feel the click when you push the start button.

Cut the yellow wire, and graft a wire from the positive of the battery via an in-line fuse to the yellow wire going to the relay.  The fuse rating should be 15A or even 20A.

Insulate the remaining portion of the yellow wire, or use it for a switched power source for low currents.

A get-you-home trick I have used in the past, is to connect a wire to the battery positive, then push the starter button until the click of the starter relay is heard.  Then brush the back of fuse B with the other end of the wire.  I've even used the helmet holder lead supplied under the seat to do this.

Thanks! Yeah I don't know the difference between a solenoid and a relay! I just found the click and the yellow wire :thumb


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[Kev m]

Thanks! Yeah I don't know the difference between a solenoid and a relay! I just found the click and the yellow wire :thumb

A Relay is a remote controlled electric switch. Typically it uses a small gauge wire "control" circuit to remotely actuate a larger/heavier gauge wire circuit that carries a higher amperage. In this way you don't need to run giant thick wires directly to all the switches like the starter button.

A Solenoid IS a type of relay. On most modern auto/motorcycle starters (and in the marine industry maybe half of them) mount a large, heavy duty, electro-magnetic switch piggyback on top of the starter itself. When it gets the control circuit voltage (from the starter button actuating the starter relay under the tank/seat) it moves a large plunger that does two things. 1. It moves the starter drive unit into contact with the flywheel. 2. It throws the contacts of the BIG switch that connects the power from the positive battery cable that is always connected to the starter to the starter motor and ground.


My thread on the matter from of Startus Interruptus from 2011:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.0

Here's the post with the details on the fix (#40):

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660033#msg660033

Ok, new dedicated, 15 amp fused, 12-gauge wire power feed installed for the YELLOW wire on the starter relay.

I took a pic or two of the relay and it's location which I'll post later in case it helps anyone.

EDIT - SO THIS IS HOW I PROCEEDED:

Basically all you have to do is remove that right side cover (1 allen head bolt and the push fastener that goes in the grommet toward the front...be careful as there's also a tab that goes under the tank, so you have to gently angle is outward at the bottom and you pull/push the plastic pin out of the grommet).

There are a bunch of relays just inboard of that cover, a little behind the tank, a little in front and to the right of the battery. By wire color I THINK identified (in addition to the starter relay) the Main Injection Relay, the Auxiliary Injection Relay, the Bank Angle Sensor, and the Light Relay). There were also 2 small 2-pin connectors I haven't figured out yet. One is a dead end (Blue and O/B) while the other is looped (also Blue and O/B).

I peeled back the UBER STICKY OEM electrical tape to expose about 2 inches of the Starter Relay harness and cut the Yellow wire most of that way back from the relay to give me something to work with.
Sealed the hot end of the Yellow wire with liquid electrical tape and then actual tape after that dried.

Used a simple off the shelf inline fuse-holder and installed it between a ring terminal for the battery and the relay side of that Yellow wire. Wrapped that rascal with electrical tape and snaked it back to the battery.

Put all the relays back in place (making sure the Bank Angle Sensor was correctly oriented with the side that said UPPER or something like that facing upwards).

She started right up - not really surprised since it's an intermittent problem and it had started for me earlier (when I was testing to make sure I really had the starter relay - hit starter button, engine cranks, unplug relay, hit starter button - nothing - ok, got it).

So I've got another month or so until the new battery is available, so I'm gonna use this time to see if the "intermittent" problem resurfaces or not. If it does, we know this fix doesn't help whatever is causing it. If is does not, we really don't know anything except that Kev now has an easier way to jump around the ECM if he ever needs to cause he can easily unplug the relay and jumper his new Yellow always hot lead to the other side of the starter relay circuit and manually engage the solenoid.

Life is good, hope this info helps someone else.

RIDE SAFE

Kev

I should add that I went on for a couple more years with that same battery after I installed this fix.


Some more details and photos are in post #42):

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660347#msg660347

Again, sorry for the delay. Honestly this was a really simple fix. I didn't take pics of the final install, but like I said, it's simply a $2 inline fuse holder wired to the battery with a ring terminal at one end and connected to the Yellow starter relay wire at the other end.

Here's the relay and wiring in question.

Again AS I DETAILED IN THE TEXT A FEW POSTS AGO - REMOVE the right sidecover, and look down into the chamber there will be a number of relays in rubber holders that are pushed over blades that hold them in position. Lift each of them off and pull them out through the opening in the frame rails so you can identify them by wire color.

Here's the starter relay.




If you're the slightest bit uncertain that you've got the correct relay - unplug it and then try to start the bike - if the starter won't engage/bike won't crank you've got the right one.

CAREFULLY cut and peel back the sticky electrical tape until you have enough harness exposed with which to work. Cut the YELLOW wire. The end that disappears into the harness just wrap tightly with electrical tape and tuck away. Attach the end of the Yellow wire that goes into the relay connector to the fused line that you run to the battery. Tape it all, tuck it all and return all the relays to the blades and you're good to go!

Here's the starter relay harness exposed so that I could cut the yellow wire

[Kiwi_Roy]

"Startus Interuptus" is caused because Luigi insists on feeding the start relay through two fuses a simple switch and spaghetti wiring.

The starter solenoid pulls 50 Amps or it would if it could.
From the battery to main fuse, to ignition switch, back to fuse B, up the yellow wire to the start relay then back down to the starter. the poor old electrons are worn out before they get there, lucky if they can push 30 Amps on a good day.

A separate fused supply from battery to the relay (Kev M solution) should give you 40+ Amps, no need for a kit.

BTW, the chances are if you had flicked the ignition switch a few times the resistance would have dropped and got you started.

When Luigi wires up the bike everything is new, the contacts in the switch are good so it works. Ten years down the road the grease in the switch is hard holding the tension off the contacts. I honestly don't think the factory is aware of the high inrush current (it's hard to measure) or they would improve the design.

Adding the Kev M solution is a considerable improvement over the factory wiring, anyone with a Guzzi should check the starter relay wiring and if it goes through the switch fix it.

[Triple Jim]

Adding the Kev M solution is a considerable improvement over the factory wiring, anyone with a Guzzi should be check the starter relay wiring and if it goes through the switch fix it.

The repeated talk about Startus Interruptus, combined with an occasional requirement that I hit the starter button multiple times to get my 1989 Mille's engine to crank, prompted me to investigate the starting circuit.  Sure enough, it's as described in the SI threads, with all the power to the starter solenoid going through the ignition switch via a convoluted route.

On the Mille, a black/blue wire feeds the starter relay coil and solenoid contact, which is terminal 30, as molded into the bottom of the relay.  The relay itself is the middle one of three, under the left side cover. 

I had a spare female connector like the one in the relay socket, so I was able to remove the original one, insulate it with heat shrink, and tie wrap it safely under the relay block.  Then I ran a #12 wire, with fuse holder and 25 amp fuse, to the battery + terminal, which is less than a foot away, and to the new female relay terminal, and snapped it in to the relay socket.

I have never before heard the solenoid make such a distinct "clack" when it engages.  It was almost startling the first time I tried it.  Thanks to you Roy, Kev M, and all the others who described and documented the problem and solution.

[Moto Rizzi]

Had the same problem 3 times in a month. Replaced battery and same thing. Went to MPH in Houston tx and added a $20 wire they make and end of problem. Installs in 5 minutes.

07 Breva 1100

[sanchin10]

Help with no start '07 Breva-11 please! Initially, (2 mos ago) after the sweep, pushed starter button and not even a relay/ or solenoid click. Wouldn't jump start so tried pushing to jump start & accidentally hit gearshift to 1st & pushed starter button & she started and when we got home it wouldn't start. Repeated pushing & would not start so I proceeded: 1)Tested battery & cleaned terminals. 2) Tested relay resistance w/ multi-meter. 3) Removed & bench tested starter. Took starter button apart to check for loose solder. Tried starting from solenoid directly to the battery. Checked & there's isn't any spark getting to the plugs. Could a problem with the starter button somehow cause the no spark problem??? HELP!!!

[Huzo]

I've seen various kits sold that look like replacement wiring looms for F 16's..
I can't see why it's so complicated, I just ran the fused wire straight to the yellow connector from the battery and after soldering a new male spade fitting of suitable size to the new wire, ripped out the (now) redundant one and slammed the new one in...
15 mins.
Happy days..! Simples..

[Wayne Orwig]

If you have no SPARK, then it would NOT be 'startus interruptus'. In fact you claim that you are not hearing the small relay click under the seat, so it is NOT 'startus interruptus'. You should be hearing the faint relay click under the seat when you press the button.

What you describe sounds more like a problem with an interlock switch, like the sidestand or clutch lever switch, locking it out,

[Chuck in Indiana]

Wouldn't jump start so tried pushing to jump start & accidentally hit gearshift to 1st & pushed starter button & she started

Like Wayne says, this *isn't* Startus Interruptus. I'm not familiar with the Breva, but on the V11S, I'd look for a stuck neutral switch or relay.

[Kiwi_Roy]

As long as the feed for the start relay goes through the ignition switch you will never know for sure if its going to start it might start 100 times in a row but sooner or later its doomed to fail.

If you want to be even better prepared run the wire from the relay to the solenoid up past the battery positive terminal so as a last resort you can touch it on the battery.
I had to use that on my Griso once, I dropped it at zero speed and in spite of my SI treatment it just wouldn't crank at all, I think the tipover switch must have been open holding the start relay out, a brief touch of the wire on the battery seemed to restore it.

Always pull the clutch in when jump starting just in case its in gear.

[sanchin10]

Hello out there in Guzzi world! I'm a newbie and I've been riding little more than 60 years & bought my 1st Guzzi a '07 Breva 11 last October '17 with 2200 miles on the odometer. This September I rode to a store & there's just 5900 miles on her now. When I finished the store & attempted to fire the Breva is when this started. Please refer to my first initial post two days ago. It explains the beginning of the no start problem.
If you've read the first post, I'll continue from there as follows: Wired direct from solenoid to battery positive post & just cranked and no start. Next, checked for spark and there's none. This is where I'm presently stuck & don't know how this happened. I'm wondering if this problem could somehow be caused by the starter button wiring? Thank y'all any & all help/ advice!

[Wayne Orwig]

If you've read the first post, I'll continue from there as follows: Wired direct from solenoid to battery positive post & just cranked and no start. Next, checked for spark and there's none. This is where I'm presently stuck & don't know how this happened. I'm wondering if this problem could somehow be caused by the starter button wiring? Thank y'all any & all help/ advice!

No.

If there is NO SPARK, it is not the start button. If there is no spark AND it does not cranking, look at the sidestand switch, kill switch, or clutch switch.
Do not get side tracked with the startus interruptus stuff right now, until you track down the no spark, which is NOT related.

[sanchin10]

Thank you for your prompt reply! All switches check out okay except for the kill switch. There's power coming into the starter/ kill switch but no power in any of the other wires. I've taken the starter/ switch apart and reassembled a few times & I think a spring may have flown out as the starter button gets stuck in the on position. Also, there was a disconnected green wire inside the mechanism which was the 1st potential problem that was just there when I initially took it apart. I thought it may have been an accessory wire as there wasn't any visible solder?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Help with no start '07 Breva-11 please! Initially, (2 mos ago) after the sweep, pushed starter button and not even a relay/ or solenoid click. Wouldn't jump start so tried pushing to jump start & accidentally hit gearshift to 1st & pushed starter button & she started and when we got home it wouldn't start. Repeated pushing & would not start so I proceeded: 1)Tested battery & cleaned terminals. 2) Tested relay resistance w/ multi-meter. 3) Removed & bench tested starter. Took starter button apart to check for loose solder. Tried starting from solenoid directly to the battery. Checked & there's isn't any spark getting to the plugs. Could a problem with the starter button somehow cause the no spark problem??? HELP!!!

We are getting confused between two different issues, please don't use "the bike wouldn't start to describe it not cranking" that's a separate issue




Here is the schematic for your bike,
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
When you turn the key on or cycle the kill switch you should hear the fuel pump start up and run for a couple of seconds, that's it priming the pump.
If you open up the schematic and look along the bottom you will see Item (30) the injection relay, this relay is closed for a couple of seconds by the ECU (Engine Control Unit), it powers the pump (36) both coils (45 & 46) and the injectors(47 & 48), wouldn't it be nice to know what that relay is doing? What we need is a small 12Volt light light permanently wired to the relay, just wrap one wire around the 87 pin and connect the other to chassis.
Now every time you turn the key on you get a little light show, but here's the best part. when you press the start button and the bike cranks over drowning out the sound of the fuel pump you still get the light show, the light should come on again letting you know the pump is running and the coils and injectors are powered up, if that doesn't happen we know where to look next.
That little 50 cent light is now worth it's weight in diamonds.

[guzzisteve]

If you have no spark and switches are ok it may be the bank angle sensor(shuts off bike w/tipped over). R/H sidecover, inside, square black box rubber mounted by relays. If you shake it, it rattles. It works in a horizontal setting.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you have no spark and switches are ok it may be the bank angle sensor(shuts off bike w/tipped over). R/H sidecover, inside, square black box rubber mounted by relays. If you shake it, it rattles. It works in a horizontal setting.

Good point Steve
I dropped my Griso, it was stone dead until I hot wired the starter, is it supposed to rattle or not when it's reset?
I still haven't located the one on my Griso 1100