Why is the open "complaint" thread closed to me?

[johnr]

Despite being an unlocked thread that's still on the board it won't let me in. Initially I could read it but not reply to it, now I can't even read it! ????

Never mind, having decided to comment I'll put it here.


Well now the thread in question is gone. Damn it. I was enjoying it and had put some work into it.
I had promised myself that I would stay out of this one, but now I've got a little black cloud over my head too.

My thoughts.
1/ I don't believe Jim meant it as a troll.

2/ I misunderstood, along with most others, what he was actually saying, but it didn't matter. Jim could and did clarify during the thread.

3/It is better if the subject line gives an indication of content, but opening it soon reveals that and you can always close it if it does not interest you so it's not all that important. This is supposed to be a camp fire, not a formal presentation of dissertations.
 
4/I can totally understand why Rocker would seek to clarify the thread title but it would have been a much better clarification if he had simply inserted the words "Counter steering". Adding the words " I don't believe in" is more than a clarification of content, it is editorial  comment. An incorrect one as it turns out but understandably so. But still, editorial comment.

5/ Jim. Given that it was only the title that was altered and not your content, and that it was done without malicious intent, I think you over reacted.  A simple PM to one of the moderators could have fixed it as per (4) above without all the acrimony.

6/ Rocker. However true it may be, standing on your hind legs like Il Duce and telling us we have no rights is not a good look, especially in a camp fire setting.
Personally for instance,  I am claiming the right to be treated with good manners and consideration for a start. I can't enforce that, but I'm claiming it anyway.

[guzzigray]

And wouldn't a simple PM from the moderator to the OP asking if it was ok to 'clarify' the title before making arbitrary changes helped??

[johnr]

Oh. I seems that the complaint thread itself has been culled now too.

[rodekyll]

The level of pissyness about this is really juvenile.  The change was intended as a clarification and it might have been done inaccurately.  But with a title like "stand by to flame me" it's easy to see how it happened.  The OP set himself up for trouble and he got it.  But all he needed to do was go in and change the title back.  Then a private note to the staff would have cleared it up.  None of the drama was necessary at all, unless that was the original intention of the topic.  The board has enough trouble right now from outside agitators.  We don't need it here.  Feel free to give it a rest -- or take your ball and go home.  I don't care which as long as it stops.

[Triple Jim]

And wouldn't a simple PM from the moderator to the OP asking if it was ok to 'clarify' the title before making arbitrary changes helped??

I sympathize with the moderators.  As a member of several boards, I've gotten tired of thread titles like "I'm Surprised" or "Check This Out".  I usually don't bother reading them if the title doesn't give me an idea what they're about, because often they're about something I'm not interested in.  Worse than that, with non-informative titles, it's hard to find the thread later if you need to.

Since that problem has been made clear before, I don't blame a moderator for trying to change a title so it actually describes the thread.  If the OP had done that, the mod wouldn't have needed to.  Asking the mod to get permission from the OP is a bit much, since he was already taking his time to try to fix a problem.  The alternative, I suppose, would be just to delete threads with non-descriptive titles.

S-Jim, it is a non-trivial thread that elicited a lot of thoughtful responses.  I hope you respond to my posts in it at some point.  Today when I was riding, I looked carefully at the handlebar as I made some fairly aggressive turns.  To start the initial lean, I most certainly moved the bar in the "wrong" direction, but within a fraction of a second, I had moved it to the "right" direction.  I'd like to instrument the bike with a steering angle sensor and make some recordings.  If I do, I'll post the results.

[guzzigray]

I sympathize with the moderators.  As a member of several boards, I've gotten tired of thread titles like "I'm Surprised" or "Check This Out".  I usually don't bother reading them if the title doesn't give me an idea what they're about, because often they're about something I'm not interested in.



So don't read them. Simple. You said it yourself you don't bother reading them. If you're not interested in the title why are you suddenly interested in the title.

 
Worse than that, with non-informative titles, it's hard to find the thread later if you need to.



Why would you need to ??



Since that problem has been made clear before, I don't blame a moderator for trying to change a title so it actually describes the thread.  If the OP had done that, the mod wouldn't have needed to.  Asking the mod to get permission from the OP is a bit much, since he was already taking his time to try to fix a problem.  The alternative, I suppose, would be just to delete threads with non-descriptive titles.



Why would the OP think he would need to change a title?? I wasn't suggesting the mod needs to ask permission. Clearly he thinks he doesn't need it. Therein lies the problem. Common courtesy would suggest a simple "hey mind if I clarify your title"

BTW Here's one of the 'rules' on the discussion page : Keep the content Guzzi related.  I see lot's of non Guzzi related topics e.g.. steel cut oats, what non Guzzi bike should I buy, what did you do today, what does your username mean, blah blah. Why don't the moderators delete or change those posts ??



S-Jim, it is a non-trivial thread that elicited a lot of thoughtful responses.  I hope you respond to my posts in it at some point.  Today when I was riding, I looked carefully at the handlebar as I made some fairly aggressive turns.  To start the initial lean, I most certainly moved the bar in the "wrong" direction, but within a fraction of a second, I had moved it to the "right" direction.  I'd like to instrument the bike with a steering angle sensor and make some recordings.  If I do, I'll post the results.

[Luap McKeever]

To reiterate.  The original thread title was changed to allow people a better insight of the contents.  Sort of a preview if you will.  That's how it should be.  Nothing is ever edited out of spite.  Everything done here is done in an attempt to make this a pleasant, easy going place for 11,000 people.  It can be quite a thankless chore at times too.

That thread was deleted at the request of members because it offered ZERO benefit to anyone, and was going downhill in a big hurry. It was just an open "gripe session".

Frankly, I'm tired. 
I'm tired of gripe sessions. 
I'm tired of people calling other people out in public.  That is what the PM System is for.  Or better yet, a phone call, face to face, etc.
I'm tired of working on this board from virtually daylight to dark for the last month, missing good rides, only to get more complaints about how long it's taking me to get something working (search, highlights, etc).

This thread will probably end up the same way.  It will offer ZERO benefit to anyone.  It could end up being just another nonsense thread that will chew up bandwidth that can be used somewhere else, to someones actual benefit.

Please remember the PM system.

[Lannis]

This thread will probably end up the same way.  It will offer ZERO benefit to anyone.  It could end up being just another nonsense thread that will chew up bandwidth that can be used somewhere else, to someones actual benefit.

Please remember the PM system.

Luap -

Don't forget the "6 out of 1000" rule.   I've moderated lists, served in public office, things where I had to deal with lots of people.

And always, even though there are very few people, as a percentage, who are calling each other out, whining about poor performance, asking "are we there yet", and demanding their 'rights' as a citizen on this private list, they tend to loom large in one's mind for some reason.    And the percentage always seems to be just under 1%.   

I really hope and pray that you won't get discouraged by this, which is just a function of human nature.   There are hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS of people who appreciate what you do so that we can communicate in this way.    But like the Blues Brothers Band, "they're not the kinds of guys who write letters".

I could and maybe should use a PM to say that, but I'll take a chance and post it like this.

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^^^
Absolutely..

[Bill Hagan]

^^^^^^
Absolutely..

Ditto.

See, I can be brief. 

Bill

[LaMojo]

And wouldn't a simple PM from the moderator to the OP asking if it was ok to 'clarify' the title before making arbitrary changes helped??

Exactly.  I mean, that would be a common courtesy in anybody's book.  I had something similar happen to me last year when I posted a short narrative with photos of Davids Arkansas rally.  Apparently,  one of the attendies didn"t want his picture posted.  Fine - I respect his privacy and would have promply deleted had he just indicated to me to do so. But....he went to a moderator to have it done which I thought was real pissy on his part.  I've learned my lessson.....no more reports ...no more photos. 

[Lannis]

  Apparently,  one of the attendies didn"t want his picture posted. 

That's one of those things where, on the one hand, you do want to respect someone's privacy.  But on the other hand, you start to wonder why ....

1) He's an animist, and is afraid that a photograph will steal his soul?

2) He told his buddies he was going to the Harley rally and raise some hell, and didn't want them to know he was at a milquetoast Guzzi rally instead?

3) He was making a weird face in it?

There's a lot of rally photos I'm in that I wish I wasn't, but it usually has to do with being caught in the middle of a big mouthful of pasta ....

Lannis

[oldbike54]

 You guys do realize that Rocker and Luap BOTH HAVE REAL JOBS ? Neither one of them receives a penny for their efforts , and sending out PMs every time one of us old bastards has a complaint would be extremely time consuming . Good grief ! Get out and ride fellas , or start planning and promoting a camp out/NAR/food ride , something . Let it go guys . 11,000 members and growing , maybe we should set an example for new members and the motorbike world in general .

                                                                                     HAVE A NICE DAY

  Dusty

[andrewdonald1]

I don't know folks.. if you are not paying for this service.. then frankly in my opinion you've got no clout/leverage whatever you want to call it in your story.

The site can be shut down at any time I would assume. 

So its you're choice whether you want to partake or not under the conditions dictated by the team supporting the site.

That to me seems fair.  Now if it was paid membership site, that would be different.

Why do people always think they are entitled to something?

[rocker59]

And wouldn't a simple PM from the moderator to the OP asking if it was ok to 'clarify' the title before making arbitrary changes helped??

Asking if it's OK?  You've got to be kidding! 

Exactly.  I mean, that would be a common courtesy in anybody's book.  I had something similar happen to me last year when I posted a short narrative with photos of Davids Arkansas rally.  Apparently,  one of the attendies didn"t want his picture posted.  Fine - I respect his privacy and would have promply deleted had he just indicated to me to do so. But....he went to a moderator to have it done which I thought was real pissy on his part.  I've learned my lessson.....no more reports ...no more photos.

Damn, and I thought it was mostly grown men around here.  What a bunch of pissing and moaning.

 

[andrewdonald1]

You guys do realize that Rocker and Luap BOTH HAVE REAL JOBS ? Neither one of them receives a penny for their efforts , and sending out PMs every time one of us old bastards has a complaint would be extremely time consuming . Good grief ! Get out and ride fellas , or start planning and promoting a camp out/NAR/food ride , something . Let it go guys . 11,000 members and growing , maybe we should set an example for new members and the motorbike world in general .

                                                                                     HAVE A NICE DAY

  Dusty

I agree. 

[Lannis]

You guys do realize that Rocker and Luap BOTH HAVE REAL JOBS ? Neither one of them receives a penny for their efforts , and sending out PMs every time one of us old bastards has a complaint would be extremely time consuming . Good grief ! Get out and ride fellas , or start planning and promoting a camp out/NAR/food ride , something . Let it go guys . 11,000 members and growing , maybe we should set an example for new members and the motorbike world in general .

                                                                                     HAVE A NICE DAY

  Dusty

Man, you KNOW we're having a night out when Dusty starts kicking asses and taking names!! 

Lannis

[oldbike54]

Man, you KNOW we're having a night out when Dusty starts kicking asses and taking names!! 

Lannis

 Didn't mean to sound quite so strident , oops . Oh well , might be a good thing a certain feature was left off the reboot .

  Dusty

[Triple Jim]

So don't read them. Simple. You said it yourself you don't bother reading them. If you're not interested in the title why are you suddenly interested in the title.

My point was that if there is an informative title, I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to read the thread or not.
 

Worse than that, with non-informative titles, it's hard to find the thread later if you need to.

Why would you need to ??

If, for example, it's a well written and illustrated thread about how to properly shim the final drive on a Tonti, and at some time in the future I want to shim my final drive.  If the thread is titled "How I spent my Saturday" it would probably be more difficult to find than if it were titled "How to properly Shim the Final Drive on a Tonti"

I wasn't suggesting the mod needs to ask permission. Clearly he thinks he doesn't need it. Therein lies the problem. Common courtesy would suggest a simple "hey mind if I clarify your title"

That's simply a polite way of asking permission.  I have no argument here, it's up the the mods whether or not they want to take the time to run it by the OP before making changes.  If I were a mod, spending my own time to try to keep a board organized and running smoothly, I doubt if I'd add to that by running changes past the OPs.

BTW Here's one of the 'rules' on the discussion page : Keep the content Guzzi related.  I see lot's of non Guzzi related topics e.g.. steel cut oats, what non Guzzi bike should I buy, what did you do today, what does your username mean, blah blah. Why don't the moderators delete or change those posts ??

You'll have to get that answer from them.  I assumed it was because they realize that some non-Guzzi related threads are enjoyable to the group, so they allow the rules to be bent at times.

[Bill Hagan]

I could think of a couple more reasons not to be "found" in a random photo, but if your going to a public gathering it goes with the territory, damn cell cameras are every where. I would suggest a mask or maybe a big fake beard or a sign  "NO PHOTOS" carried in plain sight.

mike

Yup.

Even if in some witness-protection program or a PRC spy, it sure smacks of plain vanity.   

And, notwithstanding my own unphotogenic ... uhm ... physique, I might not seek out being in a pic, but if I somehow found one objectionable -- as in  having to explain to Kathi why I am hugging the Hooters gal or the like!    -- I'd have the testiculosity to ask the pic's OP to delete it and not go sobbing to mommy the too-busy-for-that-caca mods.   

Bill

P.S. I note that I can use e-cons in Firefox, but not on Safari.  I knew it; the mods are Apple-haters.   
 

[Lannis]

You'll have to get that answer from them.  I assumed it was because they realize that some non-Guzzi related threads are enjoyable to the group, so they allow the rules to be bent at times.

If we weren't supposed to have any "No Guzzi Content" threads, it seems strange that they would go to the trouble of having a "No Guzzi Content" message icon.

Maybe like one of those signs that says "No Pets Allowed" and "All Pets Must Be On A Leash" on the same signpost .....

Lannis

[LaMojo]

You guys do realize that Rocker and Luap BOTH HAVE REAL JOBS ? Neither one of them receives a penny for their efforts , and sending out PMs every time one of us old bastards has a complaint would be extremely time consuming . Good grief ! Get out and ride fellas , or start planning and promoting a camp out/NAR/food ride , something . Let it go guys . 11,000 members and growing , maybe we should set an example for new members and the motorbike world in general .                                                                                     HAVE A NICE DAY
  Dusty

Well Dusty,  back before you came around, I took up the MGNOC la Rep position for a few years when nobody else would.  I spent countless hours and money trying to put on rallies that Guzziest would enjoy.  And guess what?  I had a REAL full time job too. So I know something about volunteering to promote Moto Guzzi.  And school baseball and swim meets among many other functions.
As far as getting out and ride , among other things - I do.  Looks like you have 12827 post to my 511. Nuff said.
Oh BTW, you didn't have to go to the moderator to have your photo deleted from my post.  You could have asked me directly.   

[oldbike54]

 Jack , not sure why you believe it was me that wanted my pic removed , never happened . In fact , while both Rocker and Luap are
friends , I've never asked either one to intervene on my behalf .
 Yes , you are to be congratulated for volunteering , trust me , 3 years of Doug and me hosting the Cedar Vale NAR , and now somehow becoming responsible for the Okie camp out , along with working and yes , coaching occasionally for a little league girl's softball team ... Anyway , if you read my next post after ranting a bit , didn't mean to sound quite so strident , apologies . HOWEVER , as someone who has volunteered , you certainly should understand what Luap and Rocker deal with everyday . Geez , 11,000 members 

  Dusty

 Oh , and while I may be somewhat new here , I have been a part of the Guzzi community since '96 or so , rallies , the NE OK MGNOC meetings that were held here in Muskogee , attended the first or second Talihina Okie gig in what , '98 .

 

[Lannis]

Hey, hey, aren't we supposed to be out riding?    Or are we texting from the seat of our bike?

Me, I'm going back out to the shop to change the tire on my Stelvio .....

Lannis

[cruzziguzzi]

Despite being an unlocked thread that's still on the board it won't let me in. Initially I could read it but not reply to it, now I can't even read it! ????

I've caught threads exactly at the point of being reviewed/closed/deleted in that I was able to open to read, able to open the reply window but been unable to post and left wondering until it became apparent that a "lag time" was in play and I tried to post while in the nexus of the electro-universe. Eventually, one flips back and forth enough and begins to think its one's own issue rather than that of inopportune timing.


Todd.

[oldbike54]

Hey, hey, aren't we supposed to be out riding?    Or are we texting from the seat of our bike?

Me, I'm going back out to the shop to change the tire on my Stelvio .....

Lannis

 Unfortunately the jungle that used to be my yard had to be wrestled into submission . At least now the dogs are visible , told a neighbor the intent was to recreate a small piece of the tall grass prairie . Anyone have a Bison to loan out ? Gotta go do a small indoor paint job this afternoon , after a nap .

  Dusty

[Guzzistajohn]

Interesting some of us can do a nice ride report with photos, something I've seen Rocker request over and over and it'll be mostly ignored. But just ONE old dude gets his feelings hurt and starts a rant and holy crap, call in the debate team. What a bunch of drama queens.

[Lannis]

Interesting some of us can do a nice ride report with photos, something I've seen Rocker request over and over and it'll be mostly ignored. But just ONE old dude gets his feelings hurt and starts a rant and holy crap, call in the debate team. What a bunch of drama queens.

True, that.   One can post a Guzzi ride report with pictures and it gets a few views and a half-dozen comments.

But post "WG Violating My 1st Amendment Rights" or "Why Isn't Medical Marijuana Legal?" or "Harley Davidson 8 Valve World Beater", and it'll go to 15 pages and 100,000 views.   

Nowt queer as folk, eh?    Like my old boss used to say "If it makes you feel better to talk about it, go ahead.  But it ain't changin'!"

Lannis

[Guzzistajohn]

True, that.   One can post a Guzzi ride report with pictures and it gets a few views and a half-dozen comments.

But post "WG Violating My 1st Amendment Rights" or "Why Isn't Medical Marijuana Legal?" or "Harley Davidson 8 Valve World Beater", and it'll go to 15 pages and 100,000 views.   

Nowt queer as folk, eh?    Like my old boss used to say "If it makes you feel better to talk about it, go ahead.  But it ain't changin'!"

Lannis

WOW I'm impressed that a sage like The Dalai Lannis actually agrees with me I think I can have a beer now

[Lannis]

WOW I'm impressed that a sage like The Dalai Lannis actually agrees with me I think I can have a beer now

Nothing sage about anything I wrote.   All I had to do was:

1) Count

2) Remember what the boss told me.

Learned all that in pre-school!

Lannis