Author Topic: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models  (Read 5047 times)

Offline Meinolf

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Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« on: April 17, 2019, 04:37:16 AM »
Hi,

while the search for improvements will never stop, the current 2230-BIN for my Norge 1200 2V is quite satisfying. After the first release to the general public last year lot's of different approaches were tried in line with the improvement analysis and understanding of the program code.

My offer to send the BIN to anybody interested in using it is, as previously for the 15M V11 and Jackal BINs, still valid. Download as you please.

First release, extended fuel shut off-Area
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13_NYpCP-Vs5d9xp4z7NgJJQZ58KEX0Iq

Second release, reduceded fuel shut off-Area
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M41x7LaF-qCl12RyuvWOfRuNMiy15GXM

3rd release, 2019.7.16
818862 logged datasets later an update is available. Or rather two updates.
This version contains the ongoing adaption of the fuel values. Depending on the mood and the willingness to search and find load areas not normally used in road driving, such as WOT at 1800rpm, I still find the occasional blank spot not yet measured and corrected.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L2SWJcZh2g4A4QJfY_0oc9r2jnYj0hIL

Personally I find this version more interesting. Fueling changes as in the BIN above plus quite extensive changes to the ignition values. And what can I say, the subjective impression after several hours driving and logging this morning is that the company is beginning to swing. A first check of the logged data shows slightly lower Lambda, 0.01 - 0.03, in the areas where the ignition values were changed. I'll be doing more extensive logging with this version during the next days, but so far it keeps me smiling. No pinging noticable, btw. For those who want to try it:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jp-awk4KR6bqD2OJABFcYf4gdg3nj-pT

With the correction of the speedo correction factor the BIN should be usable out-of-box with all 1200 (and 1100) 2V CARC -models. The BIN is designed for a CO trim of 0.

The changes versus the 2230NG18 OEM in detail are:

a) Change of the fuel values based on the target Lambda map, which is based on the measured pressure in the intake (MAP)

The %-values re normalized, 100% is the max. pressure in the intake tract. If this would be 100% at 1024mBar, the pressure at 1100rpm/4.6°TPS would correspond to 666mBar (65%). The throttling losses are quite substantial.





The target Lambda values are a transcription of the MAP values, taking into account a performance maximum at Lambda 0.86 and a staggering of the Lambda values in the borderline areas to achieve a controllable mixture transition. Fuel shut off in overrun mode was also introduced. Getting the borderline values right to avoid smooth transitions without exhaust popping is not achievable based on logged data and took manual corrections after each road logging.
The substantially increased engine braking effect is very helpful if driving along curving roads in a sportive manner, the speed adjustments needed to get thru tight corners can now mostly be made with throttle.





The slight spikes which result from the fuel shut off are not noticeable during driving. The time between the enrichment valley just before the marker line is less than 0.4s.





b) Sync'ing the Lambda values of the cylinders
Probably the single most effective tuning change to decrease vibrations and to improve ridability and fuel economy is to sync the mixture of both cylinders. As seen in other BINs (V11, Jackal, Aprilia Mana, Aprilia Futura) this is where the OEM BINs falls severely short. Very few breakpoints have fuel values leading to the same Lambda. The consequence is that, for example, while the left cylinder is turning out a power maximum at Lambda 0.86, the right cylinder might be fighting against this while chugging along with a Lambda of 1.0 at the same breakpoint.





The visualization of the fuel maps shows how different the air throughput is between the cylinders dependent on rpm and TPS.









c) Change of the idle fuel table
This is a rather cumbersome affair. The table uses rpm and idle stepper steps as indices. While rpm can easily be logged, the stepper can not. Even using GuzziDiag doesn't work, the data points share a 15Hz stream and the time base can not be sync'ed with the datalogger.

So, an analytical approach was needed. The OEM BIN values are a right disaster, moving wildly from one breakpoint to the next. Even though the indices are linear, obvious mismatches are easily seen.





Thankfully Excel has features to analyze curves. In this instance polynominal 6th order trendline could be used to smooth out the values. This work needs to be continued with a normalization of the stepper motor values and rpm values which are the same as used in fuel main table.

Quite surprising, and I don't yet have an explanation, was the significant 12-15% reduction in fuel consumption (shown values went from 5.8 to 4.8 l/100km). I've never achieved a comparable drop with a single change on any of my other motorcycles. This needs further investigation and validation.





d) Change of fuel accel calc effect
The ECU is in a constant learn mode in regards to TPS values, breakpoints and thresholds. Amongst others there are two thresholds below which fuel re-calc dependent on the TPS change is suppressed. The OEM values are -0.5°/+0.5°TPS, they were changed to -1°/+^1°TPS. The analysis of the resulting change is not yet concluded, but the subjective impression is that the sensitivity to involuntary TPS changes, especially when driving on bad roads, has decreased.

e) Disabling the special fuel function
Recently a function was found in the fuel calc routine which increased fuel injection values by 10% if a combination of 2nd/3rd gear engaged and a rpm range coincided. This enrichment function was disabled by changing the factor from 1.1 to 1.0.

Though lambda values and sync are by now mostly in line with the targets, measurements and adaptions will continue. I'm sure that more breakpoints will be logged if the road tests continue.

Cheers
Meinolf
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 07:44:45 AM by Meinolf »

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2019, 05:28:07 AM »
I'm speachless in front of stuff like this ! Well done !

Online antmanbee

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2019, 05:54:07 AM »
Cheers to you Meinolf!

The work you do is amazing. I run your map on my 04 V11 and it sorted out my lower RPM stumbling and coughing that is so prevalent on those models. It now runs great. Thank you.

If I had a 1200 2V I would certainly run your map.

And thanks for your detailed posts and explanations to help us all have a more in depth understanding of the ECU functions and your continued work on reverse engineering the newer ECU's. 

Online Huzo

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2019, 09:02:55 AM »
You are so above me, I can’t even see your feet.
But.
I completely and utterly defy anyone to be able to transform my 1200 2V any better than Beetle’s map did.
Others may be as good, but there’ll be none better.
BTW
Is the BIN, something to do with engine management, or the thing that I threw my power commander in..?

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2019, 09:02:55 AM »

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2019, 09:18:44 AM »
Hi Huzo,

Mark is highly renowned for his tremendous and widespread support of all types of FI motorcycles. I regularly send him updates of the reverse engineering results, he is one of a selected few who receive the complete XDFs. And he never hesitated in sharing his insights.

There's no race I'm aware of between those few which try to improve the BINs and spread the knowledge.

Cheers
Meinolf


Online Huzo

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2019, 02:50:14 PM »
Ok mate, your point is well made as one would expect.
You guys are a bit like surgeons, it seems that your ego’s do not stand in the way of the chance to share your knowlege and we are immeasurably better off for it.
I cannot believe that I could have recieved such an elegant solution to the seemingly insurmountable issue my Norge had. I’m afraid I just “gushed” a bit, I apologise if I offended you.
You blokes are in a different league to me... :bow: :bow: :bow:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 02:53:33 PM by Huzo »

twowings

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2019, 03:37:43 PM »
PM sent.

Offline M0T0Geezer

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2019, 04:58:19 PM »
Let me bare my ignorance for all to see:

What is a 'BIN' ???  Is that an acronym for something?

It's easy enough to infer the BIN so richly documented here refers to a fuel map but yet:


Where can the BIN spoken of here be acquired?
What kind of file is it (ASCII binary etc)?
How does one install it?
What tools, software, computer Operating System, data cables etc are needed for installation?

Thanks   :bow:

'Geezer
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beetle

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 05:20:09 PM »
Let me bare my ignorance for all to see:

What is a 'BIN' ???  Is that an acronym for something?


It's short for "binary".


Quote
It's easy enough to infer the BIN so richly documented here refers to a fuel map but yet:


Where can the BIN spoken of here be acquired?


PM either myself or Meinolf


Quote
What kind of file is it (ASCII binary etc)?


As mentioned, it's a binary file, unreadable by human eyeballs.


Quote
How does one install it?


The IAW5xWriter. Part of the GuzziDiag suite of software tools.


Quote
What tools, software, computer Operating System, data cables etc are needed for installation?


USB OBD2 cable with the FTDI chip. 3 pin to 16 pin adapter cable.  A laptop or tablet running Windoze, Linux, or MacOS. The GuzziDiag suite of software tools.

Offline M0T0Geezer

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2019, 01:15:50 PM »
Thank you Mr. Beetle, sir.

My overall ignorance now has a thin veneer of knowledge thanks to you! 

I may need to do all this for my high-idle 2-Valve Norge.

'Geezer
2007 Moto Guzzi Norge 1200 USA

My 65+ years of motorcycling here:

http://www.dansher.com/mywheels.htm

Wisdom from the road:

http://www.dansher.com/bikequotes.html

Play guitar or keyboard?  You will like:

http://www.dansher.com/audio/pdf_tunes.html

twowings

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2019, 06:20:56 AM »
2nd PM sent.

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V CARC models
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 12:20:28 AM »
Hi,

the original release and the extended fuel shut-off area is very much tailored to my riding style, which is a rather spirited one, almost always on twisting country roads.

One of the users of this forum sent an email and described that he wasn't happy with the BIN. Whether this is due to the BIN design or a mismatch between the BIN and the specific motorcycle is hard to tell.

However, I've added another BIN to the portfolio, which has a smaller fuel shut-off area and changed the bordering fuel breakpoint values. Interestingly enough this BIN seems to work very well with the 1100 CARC models also.

I've added download links, both to the original release and the 2nd one, to the first post in this thread.

Cheers
Meinolf

Offline alanp

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 01:00:49 PM »
Well, this is amazing and we should all be grateful to have such talented folks willing to share their knowledge with the Guzzi community.
That said, I just bought a 1200 Sport 2V and the bike runs so well I am going to be reluctant to mess with it.  I can't think of anything that would really make it better, but I am probably wrong.  Anyway, would love to hear some testimonials from folks that give it a try.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 01:01:40 PM by alanp »
Niwot, Colorado
'08 1200 Sport - Black
'16 V7II Stone - Black
Previous Guzzis
'07 Griso, '07 Norge, '03 California SS, '02 California SS, '02 V11 Lemans,  '83 Lemans III, '77 Lemans

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 07:46:18 AM »
Hi,

updates are available, see first post.

Cheers
Meinolf

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2019, 12:54:47 PM »
Hi,

the following arrived by email, the BIN was loaded to a Griso.

"I ran it again this morning for about a 2 hour ride and it really runs great. The throttle response is very good under all conditions. It was a pleasure to ride this morning...."

Good to hear that the BIN works well on the Griso

"....I had my earplugs in and the popping was not so noticeable to me but it still pops a lot on deceleration."

The misfires are in the area ~2500-3000rpm and closed throttle. Not a high priority for me right now, eventually I'll take a closer look. The Lambda values in that range are already in line with the target, the root cause for the popping is more likely to be (idle) ignition values or interference from the idle fuel map.

"....Should I change the CO trim, and would this help with the popping?"

I don't understand why there's this widespread belief that adjusting CO trim will remedy all ills on earth. Leave the CO trim alone, it's a adjustment method from the past and not needed anymore.

"....I had my GPS speedo on the bike today and the single digit Griso speedometer was showing 7 when my GPS was 63MPH. I would like to get back to a 2 digit display and is there a way to correct it to show the speed closer to the GPS speed?"

Well, if I were an US citizen I would probably reply with - RTFM! But I'm just a guest here, so I'll just repeat my comment from the first post:

"With the correction of the speedo correction factor the BIN should be usable out-of-box with all 1200 (and 1100) 2V CARC -models.

Cheers
Meinolf


beard

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2019, 02:14:50 PM »
I used this map on saturday for a Breva 1100 without ABS. (Speedo Correction 1630)
Rider ment: 'I have an other bike'

But up to now we have no feedback about the fuel consumption of this 1200 map in the Breva 1100.

Btw. Hi Meinolf  :grin:
We live 20km away and 'talk' via USA  :wink:
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 02:18:14 PM by beard »

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2019, 02:45:49 PM »
Hi Beard,

It's a small world, isn't it.

Cheers
Meinolf

Online antmanbee

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2019, 03:39:04 PM »
I was the one who replied by email. I am trying the map on my 1100 Griso.
I did read the whole post more than once, and I misinterpreted this line.
 "With the correction of the speedo correction factor the BIN should be usable out-of-box with all 1200 (and 1100) 2V CARC -models.
I thought that this meant that it had been corrected and should work on all 1200 & 1100 2V CARC bikes. My mistake.
When I tested the map the speedo was showing approx 1/10 of what was the actual speed. If the speedo showed a 5, I was doing 50MPH.
To clarify for others who are unfamiliar like me, to set your speedo correction factor you need to load your stock map in Tunerpro and look up the value of the speedo correction factor and then load Meinolf's map in Tunerpro and substitute your stock value for the one in Meinolf's map and then save it. Then load the updated map on to your bike.
The value in Meinolf's map was 12914 and it was 1547 in my stock map. I am not sure why there is such a substantial difference.
If your speedo is off a few percent you can correct it easily with this. My stock value is about 1MPH off from the GPS so I left it as it was. 
As to why there is a widespread belief that CO trim will remedy all ills.
CO trim does have a substantial effect on how most Guzzis run, especially if running a stock ECU and in previous years when the availability of other maps was limited this was one of a few adjustments one could make.
I would like to get rid of the popping. It does not bother me much, but I think it draws attention to me that is most likely unwanted.
My CO trim was set to 0 and is still at 0. I will leave it alone.
I want to thank you again for your map and all the research you do on the various ECUs. The map is a fine piece of work.

Online antmanbee

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2019, 03:45:18 PM »

But up to now we have no feedback about the fuel consumption of this 1200 map in the Breva 1100.


My ride today was partially to test for fuel economy but that will have to wait because while the speedo correction factor was off by a large factor the odometer was not recording accurately either.

beetle

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2019, 05:56:52 PM »
A Speedo correction factor of 12914 would be the corrected factor for bikes with ABS.

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2019, 10:27:55 AM »
Hi,

I did read the whole post more than once, and I misinterpreted this line.
 "With the correction of the speedo correction factor the BIN should be usable out-of-box with all 1200 (and 1100) 2V CARC -models.
I thought that this meant that it had been corrected and should work on all 1200 & 1100 2V CARC bikes.

My mistake.

no, my mistake. I re-read my explanation and it is ambigious. Probably ...with a correction of the speedo correction factor... would have been better. Ah, the vagaries of a foreign language. I apologize.

CO trim does have a substantial effect on how most Guzzis run, especially if running a stock ECU and in previous years when the availability of other maps was limited this was one of a few adjustments one could make.

you are completely right in both regards - ...substantial effect... and ...one of the few adjustments possible...

But even with the old P8/15/16 the CO trim was a chisel where a scalpel would have been the better tool. And with the 5AM you need a laser, not a chisel. So many overlapping values and routines. It's not a coincidence that the CO trim function is disabled with closed loop enabled and even then stops at rpm > 3000.

Cheers
Meinolf
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 10:28:31 AM by Meinolf »

Offline Velf2003

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2021, 11:46:52 AM »
This weekend I put Meinolf`s map on my  Breva1100 2006-model.

I`m impressed with how much  less vibration there  is in the handlebars and the  footpegs now. It  almost feels  that the engine has less grunt low down, although I suspect there`s actually more grunt. It just feels less  lumpy, and  more refined.

I`m very pleased  with this map. So a big thanks to Meinolf  for all the effort you/he has put in!

What my brain is telling me to do, but I`m not certain its a usefull or wanted action, is to lower the amount of fuel that  is injected. Why I think of this? Because the map is made for  a 1200 model, mine`s a 1100 model. A difference  of aproxemately 8 percent in regard to the 1100 model.
Any suggestions here?


Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2021, 12:41:58 PM »
Hi Velf?,

glad to be of help.

Are you familiar with Tunerpro? If so, I suggest that you reduce the main fuel map values in steps of 1-2%, but no lower than the total of 8% you already arrived at, until you get your fuel consumption down to the one you had with your original BIN.

If you are not familiar, then send me your original BIN and I'll adopt my BIN based on the values therein.

Cheers
Meinolf

Offline Velf2003

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2021, 01:00:45 PM »
Hi Meinolf.

Velf2003 comes from the second V11 that I owned (2003-model) I don`t have the  bike anymore, but held on the nickname I use in different (also non-Guzzi related) forums.

Thanks for the quick response! I have not  already  lowered the main fuel map that in the bik now (your  mapping for the Norge 1200) in Tunerpro. But is is true that you suggest i can lower the hole fuel map with a maximum of 8% (factor 0.92, then?).

Cheers,
Velf2003.

Offline Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2021, 01:11:44 PM »
Hi,

your nick, after de-coding, makes sense.

Not having delved in the depths of the Breva BIN values the 8% seem like a sensible approach which can be used to try and crab towards a lower consumption. The CARC models are much less susceptible to complaining about lean mixtures than the previous generations up to the V11, so having a Lambda of or even sligthly in excess of 1.0 is ok.

Anything further would require measuring and logging equipment.

Cheers
Meinolf

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2021, 01:44:00 PM »
I was looking for a reason to go for a ride this afternoon, will download and and install the map in my 1200 Sport & report back.

You guys are amazing.  I poked around in Tunerpro when I first got it with my Norge. It is a maze.... Thanks!
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Offline Velf2003

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2021, 12:19:30 PM »
Having used the map some few hundred kilometres now, I expected to get a noticeable better fuel mileage. Well: the fuel consumption hasn`t dropped , but it hardly got any better. Fuel consumption went from 5.8 to 5.65 l/km. But what I did notice that  the ambient temperature seems to have a  significant influence on the  fuel consumption.

That  is why  I took annother look at the engine temp sensor. Using  GuzziDiag I noticed that  the engine temperature that the sensor displays on GuzziDiag is quite the same the as the temperature of any low point  of the crackcase. Measured with an IR temp(gun?). Therefore this  temperature is the same  temperature as the  engine oil?

BTW the sensor is mounted in an plastic tube with a threaded copper tip. I assembled the plastic housing with ceramamic paste. And the tempsensor in the  plastic tube with heat conducting  paste. I also grinded  a little of the brass of of the  tip of the sensor. To make it act faster on differences in temperature.

Idling at an ambient temperature of some 12 Degrees Celcius it took more than 13 minutes for sensor to read at least  60 degrees Celcius. The point  where engine speed is lowered from 1200 to 1150 rpm. Turning the ignition of shows that the sensor keeps reading higher (and higher) to  some  75 degrees Celcius where it stopped. And will probably display lower temperatures as time increases. Measuring the outher side of the cooling fins gives that this surface is reaching  a temperature of 60 degrees Celcius a lot faster that  the reading of  the engine temp sensor. A LOT FASTER.

What  i find interesting is that it  takes  so long for the sensor  to  achieve  temperatures that  would be considered as normal engine temperature (>60 degrees Celcius). Do others (Meinolf?) measure(d) warm up time?
I would think that to  lower  the  effect  of a richened mixtuere, due to low  engine temp, would wash out on a trip of a minimum of  50km (i dont normally ride shorter distances, I like to ride longer distances. But it hardly does, avg fuel comsumption stays at about 5.65 l/km. Driving mostly in forth gear, 85 a90 km/h at some 3700 rpm.

Offline Velf2003

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2021, 12:29:05 PM »
To be complete, this is the map that  was originally in the  bike:

Drawing: 2229BRV12BA
Hardware: IAW5AMHW610
Omologation:
Software:           
Tester: NX9T002459
Date: 2012.31.05

Offline frz

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2023, 03:36:03 PM »
Sorry to be a nuisance but has anybody got a copy of those files to share?

I'd love to test em on my 2007 Norge as she's running a mite toasty in this superb Vancouver Island weather.

Offline flycaster

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Re: Optimized 2230 BIN for 12002V (and 1100) CARC models
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2023, 08:26:51 AM »
I’m not able to download the files.
Would you like to update the links?
Than you.

 

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