Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 93spada on February 25, 2017, 09:48:15 AM
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Hi Folks
I screwed up bad!!!! All for a main seal weep.
We Put on official Guzzi puller.
Applied slight pressure with tool. No movement.
Added more pressure and tapped tightening bolt with lead hammer. No movement.
Rapped flange with rubber mallet and tapped bolt again.
Added some heat around outside of casing (not on flange) and repeat. No Movement,
Added a little more pressure and ........MOVEMENT!!!!! The flange ear near the breather tube broke off.
After I got done with MY movement,
we tried a 3 jaw puller around the outside of the flange with more heat and tapping and rapping. No movement.
My next thought is map gas heat and dry ice to flange.
Also thought about drilling and tapping the flange and going again but if the three jaw didn't work (was really nervous so didn't apply enough pressure to break the flange again).
Please help me with your considerable wisdom.
Thanks again Paul
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I hate when that happens. :sad: Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside.
For some reason that era of Guzzis seem to have the tightest fitting rear main bearings.
Fortunately, the financial pain isn't as bad as it used to be. I remember when a rear main bearing was $300, now they're less than half of that.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_126&products_id=188
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Back up a minute,,,,
Why are you removing the bearing? That is not necessary to replace the seal.
Hunter
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If all else fails,,,,,,,Get a bigger hammer!!!! For some reason I looked at the cost before we started. probably shouldn't have!
Thanks
Hunter,
As we got a closer look at the weeping, it also looked like some from around the flange.
Also During the initial engine evaluation, found that the ball in the breather had stuck in the bottom and was releasing, probably adding pressure to the inside. Found it did not have the oring in the bottom.
Figured that we should replace the gasket also.
My bro said that he has pulled 5 or 6 and they never stuck that bad.
Hind sight is 20/20.
Should have just replaced breather and let it go at that!!!!
Thanks
Paul
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Also During the initial engine evaluation, found that the ball in the breather had stuck in the bottom and was releasing, probably adding pressure to the inside. Found it did not have the oring in the bottom.
Not all of the ball-type check valves have an o-ring in the bottom. I prefer the ones that don't in fact - it's all too easy for the o-ring to become dislodged from it's proper position.
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Not all of the ball-type check valves have an o-ring in the bottom. I prefer the ones that don't in fact - it's all too easy for the o-ring to become dislodged from it's proper position.
I thought about that when the new one came and the oring was bunched up and not seated.
Also thought about adding small amount of some sort of adhesive to keep it in place.
Have not pulled the ring out to see if it works ok without.
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I thought about that when the new one came and the oring was bunched up and not seated.
Also thought about adding small amount of some sort of adhesive to keep it in place.
Have not pulled the ring out to see if it works ok without.
I removed the o-ring from one I just installed in a customer's bike. Works just fine without.
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I removed the o-ring from one I just installed in a customer's bike. Works just fine without.
Thanks
Will do.
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I hate when that happens. :sad: Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside.
For some reason that era of Guzzis seem to have the tightest fitting rear main bearings.
Fortunately, the financial pain isn't as bad as it used to be. I remember when a rear main bearing was $300, now they're less than half of that.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_126&products_id=188
Thinking more about it I think I want to do a combo...3 jaw and big stick. that might keep it from jacking to the side and pinching.
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Soooo.... My saga continues.
Pulled the pan, put on the three jaw, kept tightening and beating from the bottom and rapping on the puller until the wood splintered and I thought I would drive the crank out the front case. No budge and no break of the flange.
Any ideas????
Some of our thoughts;
1) Shim the crank weights against the inner case, 3 jaw puller, heat the case, drop dry ice or freeze with chewing gum remover on the flange. Beat and pull again.
2) Cut the webbing in the flange and then cut thru flange to where the ear broke until we almost hit the case wall. Hope it collapses and breaks out or something.
3) Machine shop and Bridgeport or?? and let them screw it up.
Valuable lesson learned!!! IF IT AINT BROKE!!!!!
Thanks for any and all input.
Even pokes in the eyes with sharp sticks will be ok. All my "friends" spent yesterday doing that.
Paul
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My last ditch advice would be to remove the timing gear from the crankshaft and remove the rods. Set the engine nose up and use the crank as a drift to knock the flange out.
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It's been years since I've done one, but aren't two of the bolt holes tapped? If so, you should be able to run a bolt in them and jack the bearing carrier out.
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My last ditch advice would be to remove the timing gear from the crankshaft and remove the rods. Set the engine nose up and use the crank as a drift to knock the flange out.
Thank you
I would agree, last ditch.
It may come to that.
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It's been years since I've done one, but aren't two of the bolt holes tapped? If so, you should be able to run a bolt in them and jack the bearing carrier out.
Unfortunately, used the official Guzzi puller and it broke off one ears of the 2 tapped holes. That's why I went after the 3 jaw.
I could try to use the one left. it might jack it sideways a bit but if it pops the seal? then I could go back to the 3 jaw.
Looked to see if we could tap more holes in the bolt hole ears but it bottoms on the case before getting enough threads to jack.
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"Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside."
Good advice from Charlie
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"Remove the oil pan and use a block of wood and large hammer to drive it out from the inside."
Good advice from Charlie
I agree Steve.
Tried that this am.
Splintered the wood beating on it with a 2# lead drilling hammer.
Have to go to oak, it was pine.
I think I am going to try one more time with 3 jaw, heat the case, hose the flange with freeze type gum remove and a pc of oak to beat it from the inside.
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I agree Steve.
Tried that this am.
Splintered the wood beating on it with a 2# lead drilling hammer.
Have to go to oak, it was pine.
I think I am going to try one more time with 3 jaw, heat the case, hose the flange with freeze type gum remove and a pc of oak to beat it from the inside.
https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
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Yes there are and they will pull nice even pressure on the bearing if you go nice and easy.
I think that drilling and taping another hole (s) would work. If it were me I would try it rather than beating the thing with a hammer. (ugh). I know its a tractor engine ...but.
BTDT.
I had one that was so stuck, that I actually drilled a hole and cut a slot outwards *almost* to the engine case. That let it collapse enough to come out finally. WTH the factory stuck it in there with, I'll never know.
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The 1200 breva book says to heat the engine case with some special heater thing to properly install the camshaft. Not necessary. I think the passage belonged in the flange install segment. Here it seems necessary. So maybe liberal application of a high-powered heat gun might help. Really liberal.
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Yes there are and they will pull nice even pressure on the bearing if you go nice and easy.
I think that drilling and taping another hole (s) would work. If it were me I would try it rather than beating the thing with a hammer. (ugh). I know its a tractor engine ...but.
BTDT.
I agree drilling and tapping more holes is another solution. I was hoping to not drill and get aluminum bits thru the case compartment.
I will probably have to strip down internals/externals as far as possible before drilling.
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https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
Saw that at Ace hardware. bought it and tried it. maybe a better penetrant but it is not cold. It does not freeze or really chill metal.
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I had one that was so stuck, that I actually drilled a hole and cut a slot outwards *almost* to the engine case. That let it collapse enough to come out finally. WTH the factory stuck it in there with, I'll never know.
I think that is going to be the final attempt.
I really don't want to tear it all the way down.
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The 1200 breva book says to heat the engine case with some special heater thing to properly install the camshaft. Not necessary. I think the passage belonged in the flange install segment. Here it seems necessary. So maybe liberal application of a high-powered heat gun might help. Really liberal.
I think that will be my last attempt before complete teardown to cut or drill
3 jaw on flange, Map gas on the outer sleeve of the case, chewing gum freezer on middle of flange then crank until it comes out or breaks the flange. I am still nervous about pushing the crank out the front of the case.
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The loading on the flange is better ???with screwing the bolts in and having them push the flange than with a puller. At least the pressure can be applied very evenly.(and slowly and in you situation 3 bolts might be a good idea.)
Maybe not any more force than a puller, but in the right direction and you can load very slowly and gently tap the end of the crank as you increase the load.
A bit of heat with a good air heat gun would probably help.
Not that I'm more knowledge than anyone else but have used this method with success. Good shop vac as you drill and tap??
All good ideas. Thanks
Wrap the guts inside the case with oily rags to catch drilling bits. Vacuum is great idea. hadn't been there yet.
We were thinking just drilling and using nuts and bolt so don't have to pick out more tap bits. I think I can get nuts on the 3 bolts from the inside. The outside flange struts?fins line up to the inside enough to get the bolts all the way thru.
The only issues might be getting all the nuts on same # of turns to keep pull even.
All very frustrating just trying to do preventive maint!!!
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Did you sweet talk it, or were you just cussing thru the whole deal? You do realize it makes a difference?
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All good ideas. Thanks
Wrap the guts inside the case with oily rags to catch drilling bits. Vacuum is great idea. hadn't been there yet.
We were thinking just drilling and using nuts and bolt so don't have to pick out more tap bits. I think I can get nuts on the 3 bolts from the inside. The outside flange struts?fins line up to the inside enough to get the bolts all the way thru.
The only issues might be getting all the nuts on same # of turns to keep pull even.
All very frustrating just trying to do preventive maint!!!
Only the two bottom bolts go all the way thru to the inside of the case so most(all) of the tailings can be on the outside of the case.(just don't pick those two!)
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Did you sweet talk it, or were you just cussing thru the whole deal? You do realize it makes a difference?
an Italian opera was on the radio when the flange broke. Does that count as sweet talk????
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Only the two bottom bolts go all the way thru to the inside of the case so most(all) of the tailings can be on the outside of the case.(just don't pick those two!)
I just re-read your post.
One of the tapped flange ears broke off. The one near the breather. only one left is tapped.
I cant tap the others because there is not enough depth to get the tap to clear the flange and not hit the case.
Did I misunderstand?
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If it's being this much of a bastard I'd just accept you're going to have to get the rods out, (leave the Pistons in the barrels.) then stand it on its bell housing in a press and use the crank as a drift and press the bugger out. Make sure you're ready to catch it when it comes out, the crank is heavy, and make sure the nose of the crank and woodruff key don't damage the front main.
Pete
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If you have a bottom tap or are willing to make one, you could tap all the holes as far as the tap will go. Then be creative by grinding, turning etc. down the first couple of threads on the bolts to under the minor diameter of the threads. Run all the bolts in, and slowly tighten each in a cross pattern. "Probably" it will break loose. Once it breaks loose using this method, you'll "probably" be able to get it out. That's all I've got. If that doesn't work, you'll have to use the crank as a battering ram. :shocked: :smiley:
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
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I just re-read your post.
One of the tapped flange ears broke off. The one near the breather. only one left is tapped.
I cant tap the others because there is not enough depth to get the tap to clear the flange and not hit the case.
Did I misunderstand?
It should be ok to go all the way to the case even in a tiny bit on one of the other holes then as been posted by Chuck use a bottom tap to thread. You can easily clean up the threads in the case with a tap.
If you don't want to pull the engine this may be the best bet.
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
What kind of unholy hell is that?!?!?!?!
Before I got to that point I would have just smeared JB Weld all over and started drinking. :boozing:
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
Actually that's brilliant Martin! Well played! Yeah, it's a pisser when the red stuff leaks out! :grin:
Pete
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If it's being this much of a bastard I'd just accept you're going to have to get the rods out, (leave the Pistons in the barrels.) then stand it on its bell housing in a press and use the crank as a drift and press the bugger out. Make sure you're ready to catch it when it comes out, the crank is heavy, and make sure the nose of the crank and woodruff key don't damage the front main.
Pete
Great idea
ill put that into the last ditch pile.
PS what do I call the baby boy after he comes out. "Rod Man"?
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If you have a bottom tap or are willing to make one, you could tap all the holes as far as the tap will go. Then be creative by grinding, turning etc. down the first couple of threads on the bolts to under the minor diameter of the threads. Run all the bolts in, and slowly tighten each in a cross pattern. "Probably" it will break loose. Once it breaks loose using this method, you'll "probably" be able to get it out. That's all I've got. If that doesn't work, you'll have to use the crank as a battering ram. :shocked: :smiley:
Forgot about a bottom tap!!
This sound like the next move.
Thanks
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
That looks like the same era case that Charlie was talking about. It has the flywheel sensor hole. Same as mine.
Tight as a frogs A$$.
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
What can I say???
Thanks!!
I feel better.
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
This looks like it should be added to the special Guzzi tool list.
#65924700/B
Thing MG will sell them??
Gotta say..... We were headed in that type of direction!!!
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Forgot about a bottom tap!!
This sound like the next move.
Thanks
I tapped the other holes and only succeeded in breaking more of the flange off and wasting more time. Bearing still hadn't budged...
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Maybe this would help..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rljUld-ptvI
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I just went through the same thing with a CX100 engine a few weeks ago. I was able to drive the bearing flange out from the cylinder spigot holes with a large bronze solid driver ( about 1 inch diameter and a about 15 inches long( and a small sledge. Concentrated the blows on the ribs on the inside side of the flange and kept alternating back and forth. It came out with no damage to the actual bearing or the the crank. The carrier was toast like yours when the flange broke, a first for me after about a dozen different teardowns. I didn't use heat or cold, though that would have probably made it a little easier.
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With all your help....Thank you....
Here's what I am going to try next when I get all the stuff.
Tap the rest of the flange holes with a bottom tap then bolts to jack to the case. FYI holes vary from 9.07 to 9.62mm
3 jaw puller to crank and outside of the flange
liberal heat with a HD heat gun
then freeze from the center of the flange out while torque is still applied to bolts and puller. CAUTION Freeze is butane, propane and alcohol. May make a good YouTube video. (Hey,,,,, watch this!!!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSpoUUFBBM This was a FD near us.
Then if needed add Guzzi wrench and big stick from the inside.
Hopefully it wont need a rinse and repeat!
Wish me luck!!
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With all your help....Thank you....
Here's what I am going to try next when I get all the stuff.
Tap the rest of the flange holes with a bottom tap then bolts to jack to the case. FYI holes vary from 9.07 to 9.62mm
3 jaw puller to crank and outside of the flange
liberal heat with a HD heat gun
then freeze from the center of the flange out while torque is still applied to bolts and puller. CAUTION Freeze is butane, propane and alcohol. May make a good YouTube video. (Hey,,,,, watch this!!!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dSpoUUFBBM This was a FD near us.
Then if needed add Guzzi wrench and big stick from the inside.
Hopefully it wont need a rinse and repeat!
Wish me luck!!
Think my way was quicker, looks ugly but really only 4 holes drilled and chain to puller, took me more time to think of it than do it, way, way quicker than removing sump rods etc. I considered drilling new bearing flange same way and being ready for next time but relieved case instead.
Best of luck
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Good luck! We are all counting on you... :smiley:
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Sorry to hear of your troubles with this. It sucks to break the flange off. I was just trying to replace the gasket like you.
I had that happen to my old Eldo. I tried the method of bolts as pullers and set screws to protect the thread in the case. Gently and evenly turned the bolts and I heard a pop. Finally it came loose. Wrong broke the flange. It was stuck. I finally got it out, wasn't pretty. Should have dropped the pan and tried the hammer and wood rod.
Yours seems much more stuck. You have some very good ideas here. I'll remember them if I ever have this problem again.
Good luck!!!!
Tom
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Sorry to hear of your troubles with this. It sucks to break the flange off. I was just trying to replace the gasket like you.
I had that happen to my old Eldo. I tried the method of bolts as pullers and set screws to protect the thread in the case. Gently and evenly turned the bolts and I heard a pop. Finally it came loose. Wrong broke the flange. It was stuck. I finally got it out, wasn't pretty. Should have dropped the pan and tried the hammer and wood rod.
Yours seems much more stuck. You have some very good ideas here. I'll remember them if I ever have this problem again.
Good luck!!!!
Tom
Funny, I was just thinking of the set screws overnight. Tossing and turning is sometimes good.
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A dog point set screw..
(https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/6fxUjnF92inTWMlEOzqMCg--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9OTA7cT05NTt3PTkw/http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OP.uyMH463wm6iX9w100C100&pid=Ads&w=90&h=90)
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I'll throw in a little aside here. Before you button everything back up, replace the gasket under the breather pipe housing. I thought I had a rear seal leak on the LM IV and it turned out to be a torn gasket. There was a burr or something that cut it. Too long ago to remember details.
Good luck with it.
Tobit
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A dog point set screw..
(https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/6fxUjnF92inTWMlEOzqMCg--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9OTA7cT05NTt3PTkw/http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OP.uyMH463wm6iX9w100C100&pid=Ads&w=90&h=90)
At first glance I thought you were implying that the flange had a set screw...duh!!!
Good idea!
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Just giving the OP an easy way instead of having to turn down the end of the bolts. :smiley:
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Just giving the OP an easy way instead of having to turn down the end of the bolts. :smiley:
Should have known you would come up with a good idea and that be it!
Your OK Chuck I don't care what they say!
:-)
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HI Folks
The last of the flange saga......
Looked at bottom tapping all the remaining holes in the flange to jack it out.
Found that most of the holes were all cast/drilled different sizes. The tap that would have done the best was an 11mm.
Needed to buy the 11mm bottom tap. Found that at a specialty tool shop. $8 Needed to buy the standard tap to start the threads. same supplier $7. Needed 7- 11mm x 1.5 bolts. Found head bolts for some GM and Toyota. Different supplier. $36. Got to that point and didn't even look for dog point set screws. (Thought about small washers on top of the regular set screws to stop them from turning).
All too much like work and time!!
Sooooo........Bough t 4 cans of dusts off spray from Target.
Went to a buddies that has a machine shop. The main tool was a oxy / accet torch.
Put on the 3 jaw puller ( as an aside, ours has 3/4" wide jaws. If they were 1/2" wide they would fit the flange better and not push up against the threaded holes in the casting and pull more evenly).
Put the 3 jaw on and wiggled and tapped til it pulled as evenly as it would.
We heated the case til the oil started to smoke (300f ??) then added a little more heat. Maybe 400??
Hosed down the bearing flange with 2 cans at once, upside down, of the dust off and cranked away on the puller.
Hooooray!!!!! Came out pretty as you please!!!!!
There is some galling on the case. I don't know if it was done going in or out.
A little dressing and she will be ready to re-assemble.
Thanks again to all for your support!!
Paul
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WILL = way
Brian
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WOW, I have been lucky so far, five engine rebuilds and the main bearing came out easily,
I tip my hat to the extreme efforts shown great method, I hope I never need to use it.
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Way to persevere!! Congratulations... :thumb:
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WOW!!!!!!!
Congrats on finally getting it out!!! :thumb: :thumb:
Now make sure that you get the CORRECT size replacement!! Don't ask how I know but suffice it to say a seizure at 70mph is not fun :sad:
Tom
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And THAT is why I reckon this has to be the best site around. :thumb:
Well done Spada and all those that inputted. Love it when a plan comes together.
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Good work. What an ordeal! Whenever I run into something like that, I always figure I am doing something wrong. Sometimes I am, but sometimes it is just a giant PITA that has to be worked through. A big fear that I have is I will screw something up even worse!
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Thanks All
I agree, Very good site with lots of "been there done" that experience. Can't get that from a book!!
Yup, mic'd shaft and checked book and am within tolerance for stock size.
I will probably use the thin arm 3 jaw puller from now on and not Guzzi tool. 3 points are better than 2.
Yup, got a new breather gasket too.
Thought spring was coming to upstate NY and was getting ready to ride but it was just a sucker hole. 2F Saturday night!!!
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BRAVO plus you got a M11 tap.
I've never seen a M11 anything given that its not an ISO preferred size
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BRAVO plus you got a M11 tap.
I've never seen a M11 anything given that its not an ISO preferred size
Sorry, I never got them. way too specialized for the Guzzi tool box.
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I'd just have used some 'Merican tap. I have boxes full of em..
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WOW!!!!!!!
Congrats on finally getting it out!!! :thumb: :thumb:
Now make sure that you get the CORRECT size replacement!! Don't ask how I know but suffice it to say a seizure at 70mph is not fun :sad:
Tom
I remember the Tech Rep for Guzzi, Dave H. ,saying that when that rear main locks up, it can get exciting for it locks up fast and tight. Crud or wrong size or oil starvation so heed Toms advice :thewife:
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This one was tight ! I used boat shackles in flange webs
Yes my claret, leaked a bit doing this,
I relieved the hole when it finally came out
(http://jacksonracing.com.au/images/guzzi/mainb0001.jpg)
That must be putting a tremendous strain on the front main bearing no?
Some wooden blocks behind the flywheel outside the bearing flange might have allowed you to wind it out using the 6 flywheel bolts with no force to the front.
I may be missing something, was it stuck on the shaft or stuck in the crank-case?
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Same as Op and the others
Stuck in case, galled badly
Like many others I've pulled loads of these out, never broke one before, usually do it with pry bars, this one wasn't coming with pry bars or puller on tapped threads (that's what broke it)
Chain around puller was simple and quick, I used shackles cos they were lying on my bench, bolts through chain would work
Actually quickest way of doing it, took a few seconds once jigged up, pulling from 4 places, if I ever get another stuck one, will do this first before breaking flange, the four holes will do no harm.
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Fair enough, it's the sheer size of the puller that looks brutal but the shackles obviously wont allow much force to be used.
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Fair enough, it's the sheer size of the puller that looks brutal but the shackles obviously wont allow much force to be used.
Read the whole thread Roy, OP cooked his to get it out. Stuck is stuck, others had to dismantle engine and put whole thing in a press, that's serious ! Puller is big but same principle as Guzzi factory one. My trick was not so much about force but pulling from 4 places that won't break (or didn't this time)
Didn't even need to change oil, was running that night.