jackal temp cutoff?

[Wayne Orwig]

Half the time these have charging issues it is the bullet connector coming from the alternator have gone bad.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The humming noise you heard may be the fuel pump, there's nothing in the regulator to make a noise.
Give the battery an overnight charge then measure the battery Voltage as Vasco DG suggests.
Make sure the headlight is on, the battery won't charge with it off, the regulator uses Voltage on the black wire from the headlight circuit to turn it on.
Measure the Ohms between the two alternator yellow wires it should < 1 ohm.

Here is the Ducati Energia circuit diagram.

You can see how the Voltage from the reference wire turns it On
If you have the diode test on your meter measure each diode from yellow to red, it should read ~ 0.5 Volts with red on yellow and black on red.
The regulator must be well grounded, I suggest a wire from the regulator mounting bolt to a timing cover screw, any size wire #18 or heavier.
I'm not 100% certain but I think the battery charge light turns out once the regulator starts skipping half cycles as I show on the RH side, at that time the alternator spikes to 60 Volts or more biasing Q3 Off.
Note: The charge light will not turn On if the headlight's not on, it also is powered from the headlight circuit, I know it's stupid.

[rodekyll]

There's a condenser capacitor in the upper right of the diagram.  If it starts leaking off it can hum or whistle.  We hear that on computer motherboards sometimes, and a similar noise has preceded regulator failure for me -- got one in progress now.  When it starts whistling, my voltage does a steady run up and down from battery voltage to 14.2 and back.  When the whistling stops it holds at 13.8.

[oldbike54]

Yep , capacitors will whistle when they begin to fail , and the big ones will go boom . Fairly disconcerting when a run capacitor on a 10 ton A/C compressor goes BANG while one has their head in close proximity  ;D

  Dusty

[AMGeneral]

Do you still have the electric fuel shut off connected? It's on the left side of the tank. Turn the key on and you should feel it click. The fuel pump will run for a second or two then stop. It is spring loaded to shut off, so you need the voltage to open it.

But just because you feel that click, it may not open fully. Quick fix is to remove the valve and snip off the end of the plunger. Some have replaced the electrical unit with a manual one.

I did the snip it fix when I first got my Jackal and haven't had a problem.

[fotoguzzi]

How old is the battery?

I'd get a known good battery first...  maybe that's all that's wrong..

if your keeping the old battery take it to a place for a load test so you can be assured it's OK.

[Pasta Hog]

Thanks for all that added information.

The battery is a year old. It's an Odyssey, and it stays on a Schumacher tender. I doubt that it's the problem, since it takes a charge just fine, but if nothing else looks promising, I will have it looked at.

I hate to get rid of the automatic petcock, since it's a nice convenience, but I do see the wisdom. Is there a particular model I should consider? I have a Golan on my Harley.

The Harley regulator sounds like a good idea. I read that the charge light won't work with it, but I guess a low charge will tend to announce itself with or without a light.

I haven't checked anything yet today. Still summoning my strength.

[Kiwi_Roy]

There is no reason to replace the petcock, just ty-wrap the wires to the body so they don't flex where they come out the bottom and it will last forever.
Try not to remove the tank when it's full or fuel will gush out the return fitting, don't ask me how I know.

[rocker59]

Now I'm really mad. I'm at home with the bike, which cooled off during the tow. I just turned the key on, and the battery and oil lights were still on. For the hell of it, I tried to start it. Fired right up. Lights turned off.

  ??? ??? ??? ???

I mean, yes, I'm extremely relieved. But DAMMIT.

Voltage regulator

[rocker59]

I am wondering why a voltage regulator would hum. I don't have the slightest idea what components are in one. I have some knowledge of electronics. Maybe if I look this up I can get a clue. Someone recommended a replacement a while back. I'll see if I can find that.
 

The only humming noise I ever heard on a California was when the electric fuel petcock was giving out and the fuel pump was straining to push fuel through...

I replaced it with a manual petcock from MG cycle.

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39

[Pasta Hog]

I wonder if a straining fuel pump would draw enough power to run down the battery at low RPMs.

I don't understand why the humming noise only starts after the bike is hot.

The battery comes in at 13.55 V after a night on the tender. The charge lights on the tender say it's not fully charged, but the Odyssey site says anything over 12.65 is ready to run.

Just tested it running. What I got disagrees with the above.

Before turning key: 13.0 V

Key on, motor off: 12.5 -12.6 V

Idle slow: 12.5 V

Idle fast: 12.9 V

Running fast: 14.0 V

Resting after test with key off: 13.0 V

I was getting 13.55 right after I took the tender off. Wondering if the extra half-volt is some kind of temporary surface charge.

It looks like it has to idle fairly briskly (choke out) in order to go above 12.5 V.

[Pasta Hog]

Here's a new question. If this problem is caused by a low idle, how do I measure the idle speed in order to correct it? The bike has no tachometer.

[rocker59]

Good question.  I like having a tach...

Proper idle speed for those engines is 1,050 rpm +/- 50 rpm.

So, 1,000 to 1,100 rpm, idle speed,  which may be a lot more than you're used to with some other brands.

[Pasta Hog]

Lacking a tach, I guess I can listen to a Youtube video of a Guzzi idling and use the throttle stop screws to get close to that sound.

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes, the battery will slowly drain, at idle. That is why a voltmeter is a smart idea.
But, you are going to have to idle for I suspect well over 20 minutes to do any harm. And nobody would be goofy enough to idle an air cooled motor for 20 minutes.

[Wayne Orwig]

Lacking a tach, I guess I can listen to a Youtube video of a Guzzi idling and use the throttle stop screws to get close to that sound.

I have a tach that you simply hold near a spark plug wire to get a reading.
You might be able to use an audio frequency counter for a smartphone and convert that to RPM.

Of course, GuzziDiag is the best answer.

[Pasta Hog]

Here's some new fun. The neutral light won't come on, the bike doesn't move when I release the clutch, and when the clutch is out it makes a rattling noise. Did I screw something up by pushing it in gear?

[Pasta Hog]

Well, this is incredible. I backed it into the driveway so I could play with it without ramming the garage wall, and now the transmission works perfectly, but the neutral light still will not come on.

[Pasta Hog]

The neutral light now works. Please ignore and ban me immediately. I am clearly living in an alternate reality.

[rocker59]

Guzzis with twin plate clutches rattle at idle in neutral.

The neutral light switch is behind the starter.  It may be dirty.  Who knows?  They are not 100% reliable.

Anyway, a person shouldn't need a light to tell them they are in neutral.  

I suggest stepping away from the bike and coming back to it later, so every little sound and idiosyncrasy doesn't have you thinking something is wrong with the bike.

From the sound of it, you have been idling your bike in the 600-800 rpm range for extended periods.  This is not good for a Guzzi.  Low charging, low oil pressure, splines banging around, etc.

[oldbike54]

PH , slow down dude , we can't keep up  ;D No you didn't hurt the bike by pushing it in gear . This all may be related to a bad ground .

  Dusty

[Pasta Hog]

I'm taking a rest. Next moves are to deal with idle speed and petcock.

[Vasco DG]

Don't set the idle with the stop screws, you set it with the air bleeds.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you have a fluorescent fitting in your garage it should act as a stroboscope. take the alternator cover off and paint 3 similar marks on the rotor 120° apart. Under a fluorescent at 1000 RPM the marks should appear to be stationary.
Ooopps, after all these years I am still thinking 50Hz
3 marks would appear stationary at 1200 revs
4 marks would appear stationary at 900
If you have a double tube fitting it might work better if you take one tube out, often the multi tube fittings are designed to minimize the strobe effect.
I think a compact fluorescent bulb in a hand inspection lamp would work well, but I haven't tried it.


As Rocker says the speed should be 1050 the 3 marks should appear to rotate CCW 150 times per minute.

[Pasta Hog]

If I can get to a rotating part by taking off the cover, I should be able to use the handheld tachometer I bought to use on machine tools.

[Wayne Orwig]

A crude and quick check, if you have a center stand.
The gearing on that bike runs about 4000 RPM at 80MPH in fifth gear.
So idle, just over 1000 RPM, would run just over 20MPH.
But I'm not sure I trust the speedometer down there either.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If I can get to a rotating part by taking off the cover, I should be able to use the handheld tachometer I bought to use on machine tools.

Well, there ya go..

[Pasta Hog]

I'm reading about setting the idle speed. I knew nothing about fuel injection until reading up on it about ten minutes ago, but it looks like the system is supposed to detect voltage problems and raise the idle speed to make the alternator move faster. Didn't happen to me, unfortunately.

Now I'm trying to get information on how to work the air bleed screws. I have a copy of Guzziology around here somewhere. I also called the shop that has my Harley to see if the tech has any idea how to do it.

This bike has an H-pipe and Staintune mufflers. I don't know if that messes with the idle or not.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I knew nothing about fuel injection until reading up on it about ten minutes ago, but it looks like the system is supposed to detect voltage problems and raise the idle speed to make the alternator move faster.

Uhhhhh, no. You must be reading something else. There are many threads on balancing the injectors and setting idle speed here, and other places. I'll find something and get back to you if I don't get yet another 500 error..
Edit:
Here ya go..

IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING
For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006
V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia.

If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions:
http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm

Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows:

Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike).

Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort.

To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. These are normally connected together with a hose, which is to be temporarily disconnected.

Next, close both air bypass screws, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash. Start the engine and balance the throttle body vacuums at idle using the synchronization rod adjustment. Screw in the left throttle idle screw if the idle is too low to maintain. Do not use the choke for this purpose, because that would put the connecting rod in compression, introducing backlash, causing the throttle bodies to go out of balance.

Now adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”)

Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more.

Check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM as follows:
A When checking balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM, make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment, then:
B. Check balance at idle RPM. If OK, go to step C, if not, rebalance at idle using the air bypass screws, and go back to step A.
C. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes.

That completes the procedure.

Once this procedure is completed successfully, future minor changes in idle speed can be made simply by adjusting the left throttle idle screw. Since the throttle bodies have been balanced, backlash between them has been eliminated, and air bypass screws have been properly adjusted to maintain balance at idle, these should be stable for many miles.

Options:
Use a gas analyzer if available to set the CO level.
Use a diagnostic tool or diagnostic software such as Axeone or TechnoResearch's VDSTS to adjust the fuel trim, check throttle angle, RPM, and more.
The setting of .521 volts is in the middle of the range of published settings, and has been found to be reliable for stock motorcycles. However, for those who wish to follow specific instructions in their aftermarket parts, Moto Guzzi owners or service manuals, particularly for modified motorcycles, the table below shows the TPS voltage corresponding to various opening angles per the Magnetti Marelli OEM TPS specification. For other settings, here is the formula: 0.1061 volts/degree + 0.150

Degrees Volts DC
2.9 .458
3.4 .511
3.5 .521
3.6 .532
3.8 .553
4.0 .574
4.1 .585

 
Larger image click here

 
Larger image click here

Measure the TPS voltage at the outer two wires or TPS contacts. There are many different methods:

1- Probe at the ECU.

2- Disconnect the cable connector from the TPS. Use two short lengths of thin stranded wire of about 30 gauge. Strip about 1/4-3/8 insulation off the ends of the stranded wires, insert a stripped end into the connector, and push the connector in part way, far enough to make electrical connection, but no need to jam it all the way.

3- Follow the wires up under the seat, splice, solder, and insulate in some lines with female bullet connectors for easy probing.

4- Probe at the TPS connector, as shown in this image that Mike Stewart graciously provided:
 



These instructions are the product of many people.
It was composed in this thread:
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12056
Originator: Ryland3210
Principle investigators and authors: Ryland3210 and dlaing
Contributors of useful technical information: docc, BrianG, Guzzijack, luhbo, motoguzznix, pete roper, Greg Field, Jeff in Ohio, MPH motorcycles, and Jaap (for defending our thread against extinction).

[Kev m]

I'm reading about setting the idle speed. I knew nothing about fuel injection until reading up on it about ten minutes ago, but it looks like the system is supposed to detect voltage problems and raise the idle speed to make the alternator move faster. Didn't happen to me, unfortunately.

NOT THIS SYSTEM.

I love the older Weber-Marelli EFI system because it is basically a more precise, electronic carburetor.

It has NO ability to adjust idle speed (that's why you have a fast idle lever that physically holds open the throttle plate for cold engine operation).

It has NO feedback circuit (at least not in those years) and so it is set a little richer from the factory than late-model closed-loop capable systems that can self-adjust.

FWIW, I sat in traffic idling for HOURS on my Jackal once or twice over the years and never even saw a charge light flicker until maybe around 30k when it finally just started to idle a little low requiring the slightest tweak of the idle stop screw/linkage adjustment. And a few thousand miles after that the regulator failed anyway. That was the closest I ever got to a charging problem regardless of speed/load (including running heated gear sometimes).