Author Topic: jackal temp cutoff?  (Read 25320 times)

Online Kev m

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2015, 12:23:40 PM »
I wonder if a straining fuel pump would draw enough power to run down the battery at low RPMs.

I highly doubt it. And I think you'd burn up the pump LONG before you ran the battery down.

I don't understand why the humming noise only starts after the bike is hot.

Many electronic failures only show their symptoms under heat/load. It's quite possible whatever is failing (presumably in the regulator) only starts to act that way when warm.

The battery comes in at 13.55 V after a night on the tender. The charge lights on the tender say it's not fully charged, but the Odyssey site says anything over 12.65 is ready to run.

Just tested it running. What I got disagrees with the above.

Before turning key: 13.0 V

Key on, motor off: 12.5 -12.6 V

Idle slow: 12.5 V

Idle fast: 12.9 V

Running fast: 14.0 V

Resting after test with key off: 13.0 V

I was getting 13.55 right after I took the tender off. Wondering if the extra half-volt is some kind of temporary surface charge.

It looks like it has to idle fairly briskly (choke out) in order to go above 12.5 V.

That sounds like it is on the low side of FINE. I don't think it's why the motor stopped in the first place. For what it is worth I had two no-start problems in the 36k miles or so I owned my Jackal. The FIRST was traced to a intermittently faulty IGNITION SWITCH that failed on me while underway - just shut the bike down on the side of the BRPKWY. Tapping the ignition switch when I got it running again caused the motor to miss, which seemed to prove it was the culprit. I bypassed the switch for the rest of the trip until I could get a replacement. The only other time I got a no-start I never fully identified the possible fault, it was either a sticky relay and/or loose connection. But it never resurfaced after I swapped some relays and checked the battery cables so I never worried about it again.
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Online Kev m

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2015, 12:24:53 PM »
Here's a new question. If this problem is caused by a low idle, how do I measure the idle speed in order to correct it? The bike has no tachometer.

Many timing lights and DVOMs have a tachometer display function assuming you have an inductive pickup to clamp over the No. 1 Spark plug wire.
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Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2015, 01:27:45 PM »
The continuous flow of info is greatly appreciated.

I have no way of knowing what the idle speed was on the day the bike died, but it was much closer to a lumpy Harley frequency than the smooth sound I heard on the Youtube video. It was barely turning over. I'm going to see if I can get the handheld tach to work. I will have to find something in there that I can put a piece of reflective tape on.

When the bike croaked, I had ridden maybe 15 minutes in normal traffic, including a few miles at highway speed. Then I spent something like 20-30 minutes barely moving.

I'm waiting for the shop to call, and in the mean time, I will look up mercury sticks. I don't have any idea whether my mechanic can deal with this. He made a few booboos on the Harley, but they were minor.

Miami has a Guzzi dealer now. I am really hesitant to call them, because no one in this county can do anything right.
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Online Kev m

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2015, 01:35:20 PM »
I have no way of knowing what the idle speed was on the day the bike died, but it was much closer to a lumpy Harley frequency than the smooth sound I heard on the Youtube video. It was barely turning over. I'm going to see if I can get the handheld tach to work. I will have to find something in there that I can put a piece of reflective tape on.

Well, FWIW, I've not owned any Shovel or Ironheads, but EVOs have always SUPPOSED to have had a smoother/FASTER idle than the "lump Harley frequency" too.

Of course over the years lots of people with carbureted EVOS (and even a few with EFI ones) have turned their idle below the usually about 1k specified to get that "lump".

But YEAH, that lump is DEFINITELY not the speed at which a Jackal is supposed to idle.

 ;-T
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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2015, 01:35:20 PM »

Offline AMGeneral

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2015, 02:52:44 PM »
Does your Jackal still have the canisters and vent lines? Canisters will be right in front of the shocks and the vent line will go up along frame and go to a fitting on bottom front of tank. If you look down through from the handlebar you can see the vent line.

Do you notice any pressure or venting when you remove the gas cap? If you do it could be the one way valve under the tank on that vent line. You may be able to hear that valve in a quite garage after a ride. Not that this is the source of the problem, but if your in there, might want to check it out. I removed the old vent lines and replaced it with a single vent line that runs down behind the transmission because my one way was letting pressure build up in the tank.

I have had pretty good luck with my Jackal. And Kev m hit on something too, the relays. Mine have been in the bike since I got it, so I think I will replace them just as cheap insurance. Will see if I can still get the ones from Pyro Dan.

There is a regulator/frame ground connection at the regulator also. Make sure the regulator has a good solid mechanical ground, through the attachment bolts. I clean mine up at the start of the season. Nothing fancy, I use a bit of 400 wet/dry sandpaper glued to a popsicle stick.

Don't worry, everything you have mentioned is the same thing most of us have gone through in the past. Just trying to help you narrow it down. And do a little preventive steps along the way.

As you have discovered, roadside troubles are not any fun. Especially on a new to you bike.

See ya,
Rod

2000 Jackal 62,900

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2015, 06:02:50 PM »
Quote
There is a regulator/frame ground connection at the regulator also. Make sure the regulator has a good solid mechanical ground, through the attachment bolts. I clean mine up at the start of the season. Nothing fancy, I use a bit of 400 wet/dry sandpaper glued to a popsicle stick.

That will work, but you really ought to run a wire (14 gauge will do) from one of the regulator mount bolts to the timing cover. Star washers on both ends. This will cure most of the regulator failures/weird charging problems. To the OP, you need to get away from the Harley mind set. The only thing the same is that both are V twins and have two wheels. If you have a Harley mechanic working on it, find someone that knows Guzzis. <shrug> Certainly, no offence intended.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2015, 06:36:35 PM »
I am not offended. I mention Harleys because I have a mechanic who works on all sorts of bikes (mostly crotch rockets), and the only bike he has done significant work on for me is a Harley. He put tires on the Guzzi and changed the brake fluid, but that's about it. He has gone through the Harley's carb and done a couple of other things with it.

I try to judge his competence by the Harley, since I have no other reference. The first time it came back, the throttle cables weren't adjusted and the enrichener cable was broken. I had to fiddle with it a bit, but I didn't have to mess with the bulk of his work. By Miami standards, that's a home run.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2015, 06:49:41 PM »
I am not offended. I mention Harleys because I have a mechanic who works on all sorts of bikes (mostly crotch rockets), and the only bike he has done significant work on for me is a Harley. He put tires on the Guzzi and changed the brake fluid, but that's about it. He has gone through the Harley's carb and done a couple of other things with it.

I try to judge his competence by the Harley, since I have no other reference. The first time it came back, the throttle cables weren't adjusted and the enrichener cable was broken. I had to fiddle with it a bit, but I didn't have to mess with the bulk of his work. By Miami standards, that's a home run.

Ok. You're on your own.  ;D We've all pretty much been there, done that. Very few are within the range of a good Guzzi mechanic. You *will* get good advice here. Take the time to learn what Guzzis are all about. You'll come to love them as much as we do.. but they are *different."
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2015, 09:33:46 AM »
.. but they are *different."

 Like the owners :-)

Paul

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2015, 09:47:07 AM »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2015, 10:00:06 AM »
The only humming noise I ever heard on a California was when the electric fuel petcock was giving out and the fuel pump was straining to push fuel through...

I replaced it with a manual petcock from MG cycle.

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=39


Perhaps you have a faulty connection to the petcock that closes when the bike gets hot, If it closes the pump current goes up significantly.
The tank on those bikes is prone to rusting if it lives outside which causes the filter to block.
At slow Idle you have a net loss charge wise, as long as you don't turn it off it shouldn't stall but it may not be able to crank
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:09:32 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2015, 03:37:15 PM »
The bike is now back at the shop. They quoted me $44 for checking it out and setting the idle speed. I can't complain about that. Once they get done with it, I'll go over it as well as I can and see if anything is still screwed up.
People who claim they don't have ten seconds to answer your stupid questions can always find several minutes to criticize them.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2015, 03:39:49 PM »
The bike is now back at the shop. They quoted me $44 for checking it out and setting the idle speed. I can't complain about that. Once they get done with it, I'll go over it as well as I can and see if anything is still screwed up.

Well, that's cheap enough, if they do it *right*.. ~; :BEER:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2015, 10:28:51 PM »
Things just keep getting better. I went to the shop and traded the Guzzi for the Harley today. Then later I got on the Harley to ride to church. About 20 miles out, I felt like the bike was wobbling, but I told myself there was no way I could get a third flat in a row. It had to be my imagination. Then about five miles farther down the road, I realized I was not imagining it.

Spent 15 minutes trying to find out the zip code of my location so GEICO could figure out which tow service to call. I told the lady the zip code wasn't painted on the buildings around me. Then half an hour later, the truck showed up. I had to run the hydraulics while the guy put the bike on the truck. Then he told me GEICO only covered the first eight miles. I had to pay five bucks a mile for the overage.

The neighbors now think this is my new method of getting home.

Can't see any new screws or nails in the tire.

 ;-T
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Offline smdl

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2015, 10:46:43 PM »
Wow, you might want to buy a lottery ticket, 'cause you luck just has to start getting better!   :BEER:

Hope you get things sorted soon.  You are getting good advice here.

Cheers,
Shaun
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Offline 1Sourdough

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2015, 11:47:12 PM »
Alright; no one likes my suggestion but someone did mention the ignition switch, which is part of the relay circuit problem, so I will stick my nose in again:

Does the Jackal have the circuit which runs from start switch to start relay to ignition switch to left sidewall of the rear tire, then to the start solenoid and sometimes has so much resistance it won't work the starter?  A lot do, and modifying the relay on my Strada caused a dramatic change: The silly thing has worked after that! 

Someone told me if the starter solenoid pulled the problem was not that relay circuit but the Strada's starter solenoid made a good sounding "clunk" and could be felt banging into the energized position.  The starter just would not turn.  Headlight would go dim, so a lot of power was being sucked without doing what needed doing.  Is the Jackal wired the same?
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Online Kev m

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Re: Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2015, 06:15:59 AM »
Alright; no one likes my suggestion but someone did mention the ignition switch, which is part of the relay circuit problem, so I will stick my nose in again:

Does the Jackal have the circuit which runs from start switch to start relay to ignition switch to left sidewall of the rear tire, then to the start solenoid and sometimes has so much resistance it won't work the starter?  A lot do, and modifying the relay on my Strada caused a dramatic change: The silly thing has worked after that! 

Someone told me if the starter solenoid pulled the problem was not that relay circuit but the Strada's starter solenoid made a good sounding "clunk" and could be felt banging into the energized position.  The starter just would not turn.  Headlight would go dim, so a lot of power was being sucked without doing what needed doing.  Is the Jackal wired the same?
I'm not sure, but in almost 40k miles I never had to run a new power feed to the starter relay like I had to on the B11 by maybe 5k. Seriously anecdotal, but...
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Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2015, 09:54:27 PM »
I haven't had any problems with the bike since getting it back. It was idling really slow before. Now that it's correct the difference is obvious.

The bike is also more responsive now. I guess it was pretty screwed up before I took it in. It's really zipping along.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2015, 10:54:39 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, so do you have the guzzi  ;D then?
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2015, 11:04:09 PM »

Someone told me if the starter solenoid pulled the problem was not that relay circuit but the Strada's starter solenoid made a good sounding "clunk" and could be felt banging into the energized position.  The starter just would not turn.  Headlight would go dim, so a lot of power was being sucked without doing what needed doing.  Is the Jackal wired the same?

The starter pulls over 100 Amps it sounds like there was too much resistance in the circuit, either bad battery connections, bad ground or a weak battery, the true test is to measure the battery Voltage right on the terminal posts before and while cranking, Before starting you should see at least 12.5 preferably over 13, if it drops below 10 while cranking it's weak. If it just clunks but doesn't turn but the battery stays over 10 chances are you have a bad connection or a problem in the starter itself e.g. loose magnets (in a Valeo).

If the battery measures < 12.5 before cranking put it on a charger for a couple of hours.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:09:31 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline 1Sourdough

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Re: jackal temp cutoff?
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2015, 10:04:34 PM »
Ray, the guys suggested starting with the start relay rewire, and when I did that the problem disappeared for a time.  Then it stopped doing anything when the button was pushed.  Shook the relay and something rattled.  I had an aftermarket horn relay so swapped that into the starter relay socket and have had no trouble since. 

1993 Strada 1000, 1996 R1100RT, 1999 V11 EV
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