Advanced rider training

[boatdetective]

So- I know i've asked this here before, but i'll shoot it out there again- what do you folks recommend for rider training past the beginner stage.

I feel proficient enough in basic skills- but don't feel like I'm anywhere near proficient at more advanced riding. I want something more than "just getting by". No, I don't want to race. No, I don't want to ride like a maniac. However, I do want to improve my lean angles and feel like figuring it out on my own is not efficient and could involve unintended "negative reinforcement".

I've read David Hough's stuff and it's great- but I feel this is more "chess game" riding about being aware, etc. Great stuff- but not what i'm talking about. I'll sign up for the local MSF II course- but i think I want something more. I bought Lee Park's book- and he seems like a douche. It's not technical and he seems to oversimplify things. At the same time, much of the book is focused on Lee Parks.  I just met a guy who was very strong on Kieth Code. I don't want to race- just be more confident in pushing the limits of the machine.

Any thoughts?

[Craig in Alabama]

Hi Boat,

I can highly recommend Keith Codes Superbike School. It's very well run and professional. You'll learn a lot no matter what lever rider you are. I would suggest using their BMW S1000RR bike. It's incredible, and only a couple hundred more dollars than if you run your own bike.

Cheers!
Craig

[Guzzistajohn]

Although I've never taken the time, I'm told doing some track days is the thing to do to learn to test the outer limits of your machine. I'd say "they" are probably right. Maybe I'd learn to ride one of them there motorsiclkes if I would??

[dilligaf]

I feel much the same way you do.  I have attended many advanced riders courses always looking for an instructor who would identify bad riding habits and help me correct them.  Not much luck.  I think that is going to be hard to do.  IMO David Hough's stuff, in todays world, is about as good as you are going to gets assuming the object is to stay alive on the streets.  You do not have to be a "good" rider to be street smart.   :BEER:
Matt

[oldbike54]

 Jonathon , is there a good school at one of the tracks in your area ? What you want is not a racing school , but a well run street biased school . Good on ya for wanting to improve  ;-T

 OK , broken record time , sorry . Hours spent riding in the dirt at a fairly aggressive pace will make you a much better street rider . All of the fast guys train on dirt bikes , might seem counter intuitive , but it works .

 Lastly , come to the Okie camp out and chase Rocker and Kirby through the twisties  ;D

   Dusty

[youcanrunnaked]

Not sure what you have against the Lee Parks ARC, as it seems to be exactly what you describe you want.  

While I have not taken it, I know several who have, and I am friends with one of his instructors.  The course is about learning advanced STREET skills on YOUR motorcycle.  Isn't that what you want?

Keith Code also does a good job, but his course is more about learning TRACK skills on HIS (BMW RR) bikes.  Also, he only has two East Coast locations, which you will have to travel to and plan accommodations for, and part of your tuition goes to the track rental (and bike rental) fees. Lee Parks's instructors are regional (so there is likely to be a class near you), the course is given in empty parking lots, and you use your bike.  (The difference in price is substantial.)

I also don't understand your criticism of Lee's Total Control book.  IMO, it's a very good next step up from the David Hough books.  FWIW, I find Keith Code unnecessarily obtuse.  

Also FWIW, I've met the guy, and he is not a douche.



I would not describe Lee as over-simplifying things; rather, he takes complicated concepts and simplifies them.  OTOH, Keith Code manages to explain even the simplest concepts in a way that makes them difficult to understand.  A lot of it may come down to style:  Lee is more "workingman" motorcycling instructor; Keith is more "Zen Master," in his approach.  Pick whichever one appeals to you.

Another tidbit:  California wanted to increase the professionalism of its State-sponsored rider course, so it upped the requirements when it recently came time for a new contract.  The MSF refused to bid.  The classes will now be run by the successful bidder -- Lee Parks and his Total Control team.
http://www.ofirmx.com/blog/2014-12-28/california-dropping-msf-going-to-lee-parks-total-control/50

[boatdetective]

Jonathon , is there a good school at one of the tracks in your area ? What you want is not a racing school , but a well run street biased school . Good on ya for wanting to improve  ;-T

 OK , broken record time , sorry . Hours spent riding in the dirt at a fairly aggressive pace will make you a much better street rider . All of the fast guys train on dirt bikes , might seem counter intuitive , but it works .

I have no doubt that you are right here. I've never ridden on the dirt and I'm sure it would be instructive. It's really hard to ride dirt anywhere remotely near me.
As an aside, a fellow in a neighboring shop (believe Brazillian) is heavy into MX and he has a KTM 125. It is absolutely insane how tall that bike is- with its little teeny engine. Very interesting how all that technology has changed.

[dilligaf]

The folks who had the contract for motorcycle safety training and this included the advanced riders course for the military are a Eskimo tribe from Alaska.  ;D Hope this helps.  ::)  :BEER:
Matt

[Guzzistajohn]

If I hadn't started out on trials bikes in my teens I don't think I would ride street/roads now. I use dirt riding tequniques every time I throw a leg over. But that's how I roll ;)

[Semper-guzzi]

I took MSF basic rider and advanced rider course as well as Lee parks Total Control. MSF didn't have anything on the total control. But really BRC is level 1 ARC is level 2 and Total Control is level 3. Next on my agenda is a track day.

[boatdetective]

Tbd for the comment on Lee. I'll give it a second chance.

[Daniel Kalal]

Any thoughts?

Quite a number of years ago (1994), I took the Reg Pridmore http://www.classrides.com/ school.  You use your own bike.  I rode my Daytona--towards the end of the day I was regularly dragging those stubby little Daytona pegs--last time I'd ever do that.  Downside?  It is not a one-on-one arrangement, and you are one of several people on the track along with the instructors.

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^  Forgot about ol' Reg.  That's also supposed to be a good school, but it's mostly West-coast.  (I see they have one date at VIR on their schedule.)

[rocker59]

I've attended a couple of Jason Pridmore STAR schools, and some trackdays which had instructors on the track.   

Well worth the time and money.

 :bike

[crc]

I think if youre going to do any course do it on your own bike. for various reasons, mostly its what youre used to, its what youre going to ride on the road etc. in my brief time of owning non 70s bikes I had a 1100i sport and rsv aprilia mille, both were a lot better handling and easier to ride than what id always owned previous. im not sure what you ride boat detective? but if you ride a older bike I think that's what you need to perfect skills on, apples for apples. one of my old bosses was formula 3 champ a few years running and he always tried to encourage me to get into racing, mainly because he knew a track was safer than road riding. he offered to give me coaching on a track, to follow his lines etc. I was scared for two reasons. I didn't want to wreck an expensive bike, and knew the bikes I wanted to ride had more power than I could handle balls out. I was a fool, had to much pride to ride a smaller cc bike or one that came from asia. looking back now I wish id taken him up on his offer just to learn new skills. im a pretty good rider on the road all the same and if ive got a pillion I always take it easy. ive been shit scared riding as pillion and its not a nice feeling. as dusty said dirt riding is a very good way to improve skills. most top road racing guys started out on mx at a young age. my advice to anyone is if youre going to go hard on the road is to not do it in a group, and do it on near deserted roads. never push yourself outside youre riding abilitys, and if you do scare yourself look at that as a lesson to learn from. there are far to many middle age guys getting killed on bikes

[Doppelgaenger]

Download the "Twist of the Wrist 2" instructional movie by Keith Code. It's slightly dripping with cheese sauce but it's extremely informative and it's entirely devoted to addressing all the common bad habits you need to avoid so you can become a better rider on the street.

The only thing that is going to be better than watching it is going to his actual school, where he teaches the exact same thing, only you get instructors following you and watching you make all the mistakes you're supposed to learn not to make. You wouldn't be able to learn these things on the street, there are too many variables to allow you to focus on just learning. The only problem is that if you don't live in southern california you have to travel there.

I don't know what kind of training Jason Pridmore advocates at the STAR school, but I bought the book Smooth Riding by his dad Reg Pridmore and it's complete crap. He advocates the theory of peg weighting initiating steering, which is flat out wrong, and when I followed the advice in the book I got nowhere. Twist of the wrist 2 is an effective teaching tool.

If I ever teach someone how to ride, they're not throwing one leg over a bike until they've watched that movie. Best to nip all the bad behaviours right in the bud.