TPS calibration

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
Me again.
Does anyone have an explanation why my 2007 Norge TPS should keep losing calibration?.
I replaced it because of this problem, but it's still going out of calibration.
It was set to 4.7degrees, the bike ran beautifully, then it started the cutting out problem again, completely randomly, then there was a terrible low speed throttle response, just off of idle. I rechecked the TPS, 2.4 degrees, reset it, 4.8 degrees, twisted the throttle a few times, 4.5 degrees, reset it again, 4.7, twisted the throttle, ok, stayed at 4.7. rode the bike, running nicely, checked the TPS, 4.5. rode it tonight, I was doing a low speed and emergency stop lesson, ran perfectly, got to about 47 miles out and slowed down, opened the throttle, it died, then picked up, pulled over just up the road, the engine died while coasting to a stop. it always starts right away after it dies. I'll check the tps again tomorrow to see what it's reading. Seems like the signal is breaking down?.
New ECU, cam sensor, relays, fuses, earths, side stand,neutral, clutch switch fuel filter, the list goes on, to try to cure the problem, it didn't.
The dash doesn't die, all functions stay alive when this happens, and no fault codes. The engine just dies, completely randomly, but only when slowing down then accelerating again.
I am assuming the tps going out of calibration is connected in some way. I think it earths through the ECU, but all pins are gleaming and new, as is the ecu earth. I've checked the wiring going to the tps, no breaks or chaffs that I can see.
Cheers,
Alan.

[Huzo]

Jeez Bison, you have the patience of a saint..!
I have no idea, my ‘07 has never done that so I’m clueless. I hope someone with greater diagnostic skills comes along, it must be infuriating and I will be watching your progress.
Why the damn thing moves out of range is perplexing. When you replace it, is there any way that it can mechanically move ?

[Bison]

Hi Huzo,
No, it's fixed quite well, I replaced the screws with nice stainless allen screws to make it easier to remove.
Actually it's driving me nuts!
HA!.
Alan.

[Huzo]

Hi Huzo,
No, it's fixed quite well, I replaced the screws with nice stainless allen screws to make it easier to remove.
Actually it's driving me nuts!
HA!.
Alan.

Hell yeah..!
Stick with it mate, for all our sakes. I’m clueless.

[Bison]

I also noted that even when the stepper motor hose is plugged the idle which is normally 1100 will sometimes go to 1500 or more completely randomly, clutch switch?, it all checks out though. and I've bridged it to see if that helped, it didn't. I noticed that with the stepper motor hose linked up, pulling the handlebar lever hard into the handlebar seems to settle the revs down?. Could it still be the clutch switch?

[guzzisteve]

Yes if it's a 2V Norge, the only model that I had issues w/that switch for some reason I know nothing about.

[moto]

You should repost your long description on the Griso ghetto. A couple of real boffins live there. The Norge and the Griso share the same electronics, and they will be glad to help, I am sure. If you can't find the fix there, you can't find it anywhere.

Moto

[GuzziOrDeath]

TPS going out of "cal" can only be caused by four things. Bad TPS, bad ECU, wiring fault, or mechanical connection between throttle body and TPS.

If I read your post correctly, you have replaced the TPS and ECU? Which can only mean wiring fault or mechanical problem.

[Bison]

I bridged the clutch switch, no difference, I then rode it and checked the TPS base setting after the ride, 7.8 degrees, it was set to 4.7 yesterday.
Just going to double check the wiring as advised.

[guzzisteve]

You might want to check the throttle body above TPS and see if the butterfly is loose, got play.

[stratoguzzi]

My experience with the same problem made me invest in a can of DeOxit. Remove the TPS but first mark where it is currently. Flood the TPS with DeOxit and dry with compressed air. Repeat!  This will remove any impurities that are causing this condition. Remember to turn the part that rotates back and forth....more DeOxit....Put back on engine to spot that you previously marked. Should now be fixed and come off idle smoothly.

[Bison]

Hi,
It's a brand new tps, exactly the same problem.

[Bison]

Hi folks
Yes, I removed the tps and checked the tb shaft for play, and there is some, and it could definitely be contributing, however, this problem didn't slowly creep up on me, the bike was running fine then the starter button problem arose, and it brought with it the cutting out problem, although the starter button is working perfectly now after replacing the ecu.
This is pretty random, as I said, much slow riding and emergency stops last night, it never missed a beat, then we rode for maybe 5 or 6 miles and it cut out when slowing down, and again when coming to a stop, and both these times I was slowing in a controlled manner, in between these two cut outs I stopped at two junctions, never missed a beat. Close the throttle and open it, I would say 95% of the time and its perfe ct,, but it's completely unpredictable. Is the abs speed sensor worth checking?. I noticed and repaired a broken wire to the abs switch, but that's all, everything else seems fine. The question is, is the tps losing calibration the cause of my problem or a symptom?.

[Bison]

Now I don't want to get too excited but it ran ok when I just went out, maybe 20 miles, no problem, the only thing I did was repair that ABS switch and remove and refit the TPS, I haven't reset it either. I tried again and again to get it to cut out and it didn't. The ABS switch?, really?, c'mon, it has to be coincidence.
I've been here before though, thinking it was fixed

[Huzo]

Have you checked for any codes she might have thrown ?

[Bison]

Hi Huzo,
No fault codes have ever shown, for any of the problems I've had with it.
Tomorrow I will test it extensively.

[tris]

Does it always drift the same way after a reset? ie always get smaller?

If so I wonder if the sacred screw or tie rod has worked themselves loose
and move the set point

[lucky phil]

If  the throttle body bushes are badly worn you'll never get a stable TPS baseline.

Ciao

[GuzziOrDeath]

It's not the ABS. It can't affect the TPS.

As I previously mentioned, and as Lucky Phil mentions above, a serious look at the throttle bodies is required.

[Huzo]

Does it always drift the same way after a reset? ie always get smaller?

If so I wonder if the sacred screw or tie rod has worked themselves loose
and move the set point

Nice one..!
On that line, are the ball joints and fitment of same, secure.
ie
Can you hold one quadrant and move the other ?
Have you had a manometer on the TB’s ?
Just a home made U tube with appropriate liquid.

I can see that some of what I just typed is a nonsense, because you say that the calibration is slipping.
How is the TPS joined to the butterfly shaft and is the stop screw on the LH quadrant sound ?
I’m fishing in this area, because I’m wondering if the TPS is ok, but the shaft itself is not stopping at the same point.
Now of course (I think…), if the butterfly shaft is not abutting at the same place, the idle revs will change and the ECU will tell the stepper to make an adjustment.
I would make certain that the TPS is firmly mated to the shaft and then see if the butterflies are able to move independently of each other due to some anomaly in the tie rod or quadrant mechanism.

[Bison]

Good morning from a lovely sunny Scotland.
So, yes, I must completely concur, it can not have been the abs switch. The throttle bodies are perfect on my very accurate gauges, and also when swapping gauges from one to the other, and it always comes back to the same idle speed. There is no play in the linkages, and minimal play when holding the left tb and trying to move the right shaft, no more than on any of my other bikes. I removed the tps and checked for smooth movement and it seems to be fine. The readings were high and low yesterday and the day before. The bike was running fine last night, I will today check the tps angle, and test.
I did however check all the wiring and connectors I could see under the tank and in the relay area, including removing all the relays (again) and cleaning the connections/checking wires/fuses, I found nothing, apart from the discounted abs switch, is it possible I inadvertantly fixed a bad connection?. But I've been through them umpteen times.

[GuzziOrDeath]

What about your ground connections? Especially the one on the ECU? Clean & tight?

[Bison]

Gleaming and tight!.

[guzzisteve]

You fixed it now ride it.

[Bison]

Good evening avid readers,
Are you ready for the latest installment?
OK, the tps was removed and checked fir smooth movement and the tb's checked for play, cleaned all the relays while I was in there. For probably the 6th time. The bike ran great. I reset the tps this morning, 4.8. Went for a lovely ride, I have to say, the bike has never run better, and the idle a rock steady 1100rpm, I rode about 60 miles, slowed down, blah hhh, nothing, then it picked up again, rode another 20 or so miles back and it did it twice more, the idle was all over the place  checked the tps, 3.8. Reset to 4.8 again..
So with Guzzidiag connected I got a screwdriver and a small hook into the space between the tps and the throttle body, grabbed the top of the shaft and moved it back and fourth as much as I could, the absolute maximum deflection I could get was 5.1 degrees and 4.6 degrees, that's 0.3 degrees one way and 0.2 the other, I opened the throttle a bit and tried it in that position, the same deflection. This leads me to the conclusion that although there's wear in the tb's, that's unlikely to be the cause of the tps resetting itself.
So, all relays have been replaced, the fuel injection relay was new in a bag I got with spares for the bike, I've ordered the proper Guzzi one, just incase the injection relay could influence the tps setting?, is this possible?. It definitely seems to be temperature oriented too, only does it when hot, or so it seems. Only happens when you close and then open the throttle, not just when you change down, and it's completely random, I tried to get it to happen on a maybe 5 mile long straight with no traffic, 60 to 30 in top, perfect, change down to 10mph, perfect, slow for a sharp bend, no problem, a mile later slow for another sharp bend, blahhh, it dies, then picks up?.
I'm going to call her Christine,  I think she's posessed!!!.
Ideas?..

[Vagrant]

My only suggestion is go get a bottle of that lovely single malt your country is famous for and spend a couple of days enjoying it.

[Bison]

Strange you should mention that, I have about a dozen bottles, I sampled some last night.

[RinkRat II]

    You might try this, with the bike off. disconnect the TPS connector and hook up an Ohmmeter from the center pin to the outer pin on the tps and rotate the throttle. the reading should be linear with no blips or gaps. Next try the  other outer pin and see what it does.  If it's not smooth, time for a new TPS.  My $.02.

      Paul B

[tris]

    You might try this, with the bike off. disconnect the TPS connector and hook up an Ohmmeter from the center pin to the outer pin on the tps and rotate the throttle. the reading should be linear with no blips or gaps. Next try the  other outer pin and see what it does.  If it's not smooth, time for a new TPS.  My $.02.

      Paul B

You can also get GuzziDiag to trace TPS for a quick shufti

[lucky phil]

Good evening avid readers,
Are you ready for the latest installment?
OK, the tps was removed and checked fir smooth movement and the tb's checked for play, cleaned all the relays while I was in there. For probably the 6th time. The bike ran great. I reset the tps this morning, 4.8. Went for a lovely ride, I have to say, the bike has never run better, and the idle a rock steady 1100rpm, I rode about 60 miles, slowed down, blah hhh, nothing, then it picked up again, rode another 20 or so miles back and it did it twice more, the idle was all over the place  checked the tps, 3.8. Reset to 4.8 again..
So with Guzzidiag connected I got a screwdriver and a small hook into the space between the tps and the throttle body, grabbed the top of the shaft and moved it back and fourth as much as I could, the absolute maximum deflection I could get was 5.1 degrees and 4.6 degrees, that's 0.3 degrees one way and 0.2 the other, I opened the throttle a bit and tried it in that position, the same deflection. This leads me to the conclusion that although there's wear in the tb's, that's unlikely to be the cause of the tps resetting itself.
So, all relays have been replaced, the fuel injection relay was new in a bag I got with spares for the bike, I've ordered the proper Guzzi one, just incase the injection relay could influence the tps setting?, is this possible?. It definitely seems to be temperature oriented too, only does it when hot, or so it seems. Only happens when you close and then open the throttle, not just when you change down, and it's completely random, I tried to get it to happen on a maybe 5 mile long straight with no traffic, 60 to 30 in top, perfect, change down to 10mph, perfect, slow for a sharp bend, no problem, a mile later slow for another sharp bend, blahhh, it dies, then picks up?.
I'm going to call her Christine,  I think she's posessed!!!.
Ideas?..

The std Guzzi relays aren't the best. Omron relays are the choice relays as they have a higher current capacity that pretty much any other available. Just for info. Your bike has the linier relay, correct? The PF03 without the slotted mount holes?

Phil