Author Topic: What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin  (Read 86122 times)

canuck750

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Better looking and smarter riders on Guzzis :laugh:

Offline wrbix

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Offline Aaron D.

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You know that HD has been running hydraulic lifters for decades, right?  No valve adustment on Sportster or Big Twin.

My point exactly.

Doppelgaenger

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I've never ridden harley, but I have ridden the new crop of Indians. The Breva felt positively rattly when I got back on it after riding the Indians.

I didn't like the scout, but I did like the Chieftain a LOT. I liked the immense torque at low revs, but the engines don't invite you to rev them out, nor is the experience very rewarding. For cruising around, which is what they do, they are the perfect engine for the application.

the guzzi engine does reward you for pushing it to the redline, and I can tell that it isn't the least bit phased by doing so either. If you want to have a more sporty ride, you go with the Guzzi.

I didn't get cruisers until I rode that Cheiftain. I could even bring myself to buy one at some point for road trips since they're more comfortable. I don't get the Dressing Like A Pirate thing though.

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Offline blackbuell

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Over the years I have owned about 25 bikes, including two Harleys (actually Buell tube-framed ST's) and two MG's, one of them an ST (a Norge). My two all-time favorite bikes (not the best, in terms of performance or reliability), are a 2000 Buell ST (sold to brother-in-law several years ago) and the 2009 Norge that I still ride. The two bikes are very similar in terms of weight, handling, comfort, and braking; the only major differences to me were the engine stroke and configuration, and the final drive. For rides of one full day or less, I favor the Buell: a bit more torque, feel of the motor is more visceral, more fun to ride. For long trips, I favor the Norge: smoother and more comfortable at highway speeds, yet still full of character. In terms of engine and final drive maintenance, there was a big difference: loved the belt drive--never any problems, low maintenance; though it is easy to adjust MG valves, I much preferred the zero-maintenance of the hydraulic valves of the Buell.

Bottom line: if similar motors (1200 cc's) of the two brands are put into a similar chassis, IMO there are far more similarities than there are differences. In fact, one thing that lead me to buy a Norge was the fact that when I took one on a long test ride, it reminded me of my beloved Buells.

Jon
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Offline Dean Rose

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The the people that ride them.


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Offline Cool Runnings

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Quote
What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin

PRICE!  :popcorn:

Offline Cool Runnings

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Got to pipe the Norge b4 Strugis.  :evil:

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Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.

The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.

And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.

The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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1. Apparently Harleys can't create power unless they have loud flatulent exhaust systems. Who wants that?

2. I was looking into getting a Harley many years ago. But the local HD dealer made a few a$$hole comments to me about the Kawasaki that I road in on. He basically didn't want me or my money, so I left. I found out much later that even his son and daughter worked at a different dealer, they hated their father so much. That other dealer was also curious about my MG Centauro when I rode in, not hateful. So that one bad dealer probably soared me on the entire brand for life.
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I want to address the cylinder layout differences and what I feel are misconceptions.

I think everyone here knows that one thing we've learned from science is that you can't always take what seem like logical assumptions as fact because under examination they often prove there was something the assumption didn't take into account.

Everyone assumes that because A Harley V-twin is inline with one cylinder behind the other that the rear cylinder must be at a cooling disadvantage.

What I've found over the years is that is not necessarily the truth, and even when it is the truth it is likely insignificant.

Using an IR pyrometer I tracked head temperatures on multiple Harleys and Guzzis, often operated under the exact same conditions (like on a ride together with Jenn on one and me on the other).

I've posted that data here and other places and discussed it at length, including with other Harley owners who had similar findings.

It might surprise those who have never done this that the rear cylinder on many Harleys runs slightly COOLER than the front, and even when it runs hotter the difference is usually insignificant.


Ironically side-by-side our 00 Jackal ran higher head temps than our carbureted 05 883 Sporty (front or rear cylinder), while our 06 Breva ran cooler head temps than our 07 EFI 1200 Sporty. Though it is likely that all were simply functioning within their specific design parameters. Ironically only the 06 Breva posed any discomfort to the rider and I believe that was because of a design with poor air management (tank and sponsoons blocked too much cool air to the rider).

Anyway here are some thoughts on why the inline design is not necessarily at a disadvantage to the Goose V in the real world with regards to air cooling/temp management:

1. Maybe the layout difference would be more significant if either design was pushed closer to their respective mechanical limits of performance. Certainly some Buell owners complain about heat more than any Sporty owners. The XR1200 Sporty put out more hp stock than Sportys of the same year, and the XR was the only model with an oil cooler (like a Carc). I think a big part of that is simply bike layout, closeness of the rear cylinder to the seat, and/or frame geometry (how much of the airflow is blocked by frame and other components). The Sporty is much more open and even though the cylinder heads on the 1200 were hotter than the Breva 1100 by about 50F it was a much more comfortable bike to ride in temps above 80F.

2. Cooling air on a Harley isn't a static thing. It's not a case that the front cylinder gets pure cold air and the rear gets none. The front cylinder gets air that is fouled by the front exhaust header (pre-heated), but the rear exhaust header exits BEHIND the rear cylinder and shouldn't really have much of an effect on the air cooling the rear cylinder. Also think about motion of air as being similar to water, when you move through it you create turbulence, spirals, waves. As the front cylinder cuts the air it causes cooler air from both sides to spiral back toward the rear cylinder.

3. Heat is spread around the various cooling surfaces throughout the motor by oil. This is especially true on Harleys built in the last decade or so where they have added things like piston oil jets to air in cooling. As emissions standards have tightened and EFI has leaned fuel mixtures they have also greatly increased the surface area of the cooling fins. The result is a motor that cools itself pretty well, for both the front and rear cylinders.

4. Bikes are made of Metal not Flesh. I think we sometimes forget that a 10F difference in temp from one cylinder head to another, especially if we're already talking temps in the 250F range, means very little to metal.

Now that's not to say there aren't some disadvantages to the layout. Obviously the inline V puts the rear header closer to the rider than say a parallel, transverse cylinder twin (longitudinal crank), or opposed twin layouts. That is where differences in individual sizes and bikes may make some feel heat or discomfort but not others. I can say all the Sportsters I've owned, the Road King I owned, and the various other big twins I've had access too (mostly Dynas) all were not a problem for me (or for Jenn). Even my S3T didn't seem to be much of an issue, but it's possible I never really rode it when temps were in say the 90s. I do know that Jenn feels the heat from her Monster when ambients are up, and I don't really get that either, so that could be an ergonomic difference or difference in tolerances/perception.

And yeah the inline V does put the rocker boxes right under the frame, but since I don't need to remove them for maintenance it's hardly a disadvantage.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:36:14 AM by Kev m »
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Online Kev m

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Having owned a couple Sportsters, and then a Sport 1100 and V11 LeMans, I'd say the engine personalities are very different.

The Guzzis like to rev, in relation to the HDs.

And, my solid-mount Sportsters were bone shakers compared to my Guzzis.

The Guzzis are much more enjoyable, long-distance / high-speed.

But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.

Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).

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Offline Cool Runnings

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But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.

Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).

Big block Harley's run out of steam a little over 5k rpm while the big block Guzzi happily revs past 8k.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.
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But your solidmount Sporty experience is more than a decade out of date. My current XL1200Lr is in some ways completely different from my old 93 XL1200, especially in terms of long-distance/high speed comfort and ability.

Now I've not ridden a V11 Sport, but again compared to my Jackal, Breva 1100, or V7, the difference in revs is pretty small (like I said about 1k).

Yeah.  That's why I noted that they were solid-mount.  I've ridden the rubber-mount Sportsters, and though the vibes are reduced, the engine personality is still lazy, as compared to a Sport 1100 or V11 Sport/LeMans.

You might be amazed at how different the California 1100 is from the V11 Sport/LeMans.  The V11's have lighter flywheels and a lot more power.  My California Bassa was positively lazy when compared to my V11 LeMans.
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Online rocker59

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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.

I think that had to do with his new frame blocking engine air flow.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 09:16:42 AM by rocker59 »
Michael T.
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Online Kev m

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Big block Harley's run out of steam a little over 5k rpm while the big block Guzzi happily revs past 8k.

Well, to be clear, let me refer to both my previous posts on the subject.

I differentiated between BTs and Sportys, and compared them to the various 2V Big Block and Small Block Guzzis I've owned.

I also wasn't necessarily comparing peak rpm, so much as typical usable/desired rpm range. And I'll maintain Sportys are about 1k below and BTs about 2k below the same for the 2V Guzzis I've owned.

That said, if we want to talk about peaks I wouldn't say any of my Guzzis "rev'd happily" PAST 8k. As a matter of fact, most every Guzzi dyno chart I've ever seen shows torque to be dropping past 7k. I'm not sure I've ever rev'd much past 7k on any of the ones I've owned.

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Online Kev m

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I know that Buell felt the need to but a big loud 'turbine' to blow on the rear cylinder of the one I test road to keep the rear cylinder cool.
Someone knew there was an issue there.

I assume it was not a tuber. The later box-framed models really encased the rear cylinder a bit too much. But I addressed that in my post on the subject.

Yeah.  That's why I noted that they were solid-mount.  I've ridden the rubber-mount Sportsters, and though the vibes are reduced, the engine personality is still lazy, as compared to a Sport 1100 or V11 Sport/LeMans.

You might be amazed at how different the California 1100 is from the V11 Sport/LeMans.  The V11's have lighter flywheels and a lot more power.  My California Bassa was positively lazy when compared to my V11 LeMans.

Yeah, I would believe that difference. And in that sense I'm sure my B11 was more related to my Jackal in terms of mass/rev-ability etc.
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Online sib

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                                                                      Tuber ?

 Isn't that a root vegetable ?

  Dusty
Well, not to be overly picky, but, botanically, a tuber is a modified stem, not a root.  So, there!
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Offline Sheepdog

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I expect that combustion chamber temperatures are more about fuel mapping/jetting than engine layout. Any air-cooled engine runs hotter with a lean mixture...it's not only about airflow. However, Guzzi's layout does offer cooling air equally to both cylinders...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 10:50:07 AM by Sheepdog »
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Online PeteS

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Wow! All these posts and no mentioned the sound. My 850 with its RennSport exhaust sounds like a small block chevy revving up. No Harley will ever sound like that,

Pete

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Kev, parade mode kicks out the rear cylinder I believe.
wussup with that?
p.s. miss my little sporty, took me through Mexico 25yrs. ago..
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Offline triman023

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The Guzzi has the advantage in lower engine vibration. While I didn't feel a lot of vibes on my Buell S2 at speed, it shook like a paint shaker under 2,000 rpms. The rubber engine mounts works well at highway speeds, but the engine is still shaking like crazy. It shook the carburetor to death, broke the carb needle. I had to keep a careful eye on things loosening. When it blew a head gasket and the dealer told me they all sound like that I gave up. So far the Griso is dead reliable after a year and a half, and I can work on it myself if/when I need to.

Also the Griso is way more fun in the twisties!

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Kev, parade mode kicks out the rear cylinder I believe.
wussup with that?

It's not available on all models (maybe only the dressers, or only on BTs, I know it is not available as a rider activated feature on any of the Sportsters).

And, as I understand it, in the current form it can only be activated at a dead stop/idle.

When activated it shuts off fuel and ignition to the rear cylinder in order for it to act as an air pump increasing cooling until the throttle is opened again, automatically restarting fuel/ignition on that cylinder and returning performance to normal.

They chose the rear cylinder for the obvious reason that it is closest to the rider so IF the heat was starting to bother the rider than that would have the greatest effect.

I believe early versions of the system may have only activated automatically at a certain temperature threshold, like a protected mode. But I don't know how much of that is fact vs. rumor and certainly I've never had it happen on any I've ridden.
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The Guzzi has the advantage in lower engine vibration. While I didn't feel a lot of vibes on my Buell S2 at speed,

<snip>

Also the Griso is way more fun in the twisties!

Funny you should mention that - because my S3T felt very similar to me to the Griso I've ridden.

And size/ergonomically/weight/power they seemed very similar to me.
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 Comparing a Harley to a Guzzi on a Guzzi website  :grin: Try comparing a Ford to a Chevy on a Chevy website...

  My experience on Guzzi is limited to a 76 Lemans and a 85 stripped down Cali 2 cafe bike....My experience on modern Harleys is my current 97 Buell tube frame....
   My Buell has a aftermarket muffler and 42MM Mikuni......... it revs right up to 6500 rpm no problem.The Buell accelerates faster and is smoother at higher RPM's... The Buell engine shakes noticeably on it's rubber mounts below 2500 rpm. Sound? Both sound good but different. The Guzzi shakes at low speed but it's less annoying than the Buell.  I won't get into handling because they are too different to compare fairly.
  Harley parts have many sources....MG, not so many....

Offline mjptexas

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The the people that ride them.


Dean

Amen to that.  I know there are some really great Harley riders out there, but for every one I met there were how many posers?
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Offline mjptexas

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Wow! All these posts and no mentioned the sound. My 850 with its RennSport exhaust sounds like a small block chevy revving up. No Harley will ever sound like that,

Pete

Here Here!  The sound of a Guzzi at full throttle with modest exhaust relief certainly stirs my motorcycling soul.
Mike

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Online rocker59

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Comparing a Harley to a Guzzi on a Guzzi website  :grin: Try comparing a Ford to a Chevy on a Chevy website...

  My experience on Guzzi is limited to a 76 Lemans and a 85 stripped down Cali 2 cafe bike....My experience on modern Harleys is my current 97 Buell tube frame....
   My Buell has a aftermarket muffler and 42MM Mikuni......... it revs right up to 6500 rpm no problem.The Buell accelerates faster and is smoother at higher RPM's... The Buell engine shakes noticeably on it's rubber mounts below 2500 rpm. Sound? Both sound good but different. The Guzzi shakes at low speed but it's less annoying than the Buell.  I won't get into handling because they are too different to compare fairly.
  Harley parts have many sources....MG, not so many....

The Buell modded Sportster engines were great.  Revved freely to redline.  I really liked the 984cc XB9s.

Hard to compare Buells to Sportsters, though.  The Buells are much lighter and have a lot more power.
Michael T.
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