What happens when your electric car runs out of juice out in the country?

[Nic in Western NYS]

New 2017 Chevy Volt at $40K is silly.
Used 2013 Chevy Volt at $10K is on my list as my next car.

Power source with the most untapped potential?  No doubt it's nuclear fusion.  We have this massive, 100% reliable reactor that is already at a safe distance and has about 1-2 billion more reliable years in it before it starts to get too hot.  Power transmission is aided by excellent vacuum characteristics of space, ensuring photons travel at maximum speed.  Free if you want to do your own collecting.

[rocker59]

If we could get more energy out v the energy to make that energy come out, then we've invented perpetual motion.  Perpetual motion devices are actually unpatentable due to our current knowledge of physics.

And 120 years ago the IC engine was an "also ran" to steam and electric because the exact same infrastructure arguments were made about them that I'm reading here now re: modern electric.  Historical electric didn't die because of the rise of IC, IC rose because we didn't have the technology back then to fuel electric over distance.  We have the technology now.  It's time to get it done.

I'm in the camp with the plug-n-drive battery swaps.  Vehicles have a few common classes of power cells.  These slide out easily (maybe a lifting device at the station) and a replacement slides in.  Takes less time than fueling a 22-gal tank (in my fantasy).  The station reads the meter on the spent battery for remaining charge and condition and bills (was going to say "charges") accordingly for the swap.

In the meantime, out back, the spent cell is plugged in to a charging bank for refill.  The station operator gets his power where he can -- wind and solar come to mind, as well as tidal and surf along the coast, thermal where available, etc.  The really smart guy will hook up a shallow teeter totter and generator to the roadbed out front and get a few turns of an armature every time a car passes over.  If he's real smart he'll tap into sidewalks and ramps.  Dairy farms could become huge energy generators by making the cows walk over these things.  Stadiums could provide some charging in the parking lots by having attendees walk the ramp . . . the imagination staggers when it comes to where to get the power without loading the government grid.  That's why it's frowned on -- it's so completely doable.

Until the station can stockpile enough cells to keep up with demand, he'll have to use the grid, at least off-peak.  When you think about it, it's a good use of the grid, since the power carried by the wires can't otherwise be stored.  Off-peak surplus is wasted.  With enough cells in reserve,he hits his break-even point on the alternative energy sources and then makes a killing.

On the cell supply side, you can get standard dimension cells in regular, mid-grade, or premium distance exchanges, probably based on cell technology.  companies like Tesla sell, lease, or franchise the units.  Charging arrays are all standard, so anyone's cell fits at anyone's charging station. 

Standardizing cell sizes and connections takes the refueling essentially off the grid and out of the city.  The economic incentive is there because in the right areas, and with combinations of alternative energy generators, after the generators have been paid for, the power is free to the station.  A dispersal of these stations gets you across the country.  Some future administration less interested in preserving coal (we gonna go back to steam, right?)  plans x-continental routes like selected interstates and state highways and offers incentives to develop the fueling stations along those routes.

How many batteries would a busy station need to stock and keep charged in this scheme? How many types?

LP tank exchange is cool, but the scale of doing it with electric car packs seems daunting. The stations would need lots of storage space and lots of electricity to charge them. 

A gas station sells gas to hundreds, some of them thousands of car drivers each day.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[kirby1923]

I still don't understand why gasoline-electric or diesel-electric hasn't happened in autos.  It's been in railroads since the 1930s.

Instead of a transmission, hook a generator to the engine.  Instead of differentials and drive shafts, mount an electric motor at each wheel.  Add a huge battery pack and you'd have the ultimate hybrid.

Lots of torque on demand "off idle", the ability to go shorter distances on full electric, the ability to economically cover large distances.

There is a big problem with power losses between the IC engine and the electric motor otherwise you would see it in things like light aircraft.

Rail locomotives are being built/designed now with mechanical transmissions (without electric motor/generator) because they are more efficient by several percentage points. Also very large diesel/electric dump trucks used in mining are doing the same thing.

To make it work (diesel/electric) you would need near 0 resistance (super conductivity)  in  and between the generator and motor.

Not there yet.

[rocker59]

 

Rail locomotives are being built/designed now with mechanical transmissions (without electric motor/generator) because they are more efficient by several percentage points. Also very large diesel/electric dump trucks used in mining are doing the same thing.
 

Which rail locomotives are being built in this way, today?  I'd like to read about them.

Mechanical transmissions and drivelines were abandoned in rail applications in the 1930s/1940s because they weren't durable, and were high maintenance.

The current standard of a diesel engine driving a generator which powers the traction motors has been standard since before WWII.  Lots of technology has been added in the decades since, but the basic layout has remained the same.  It's refined and works well in its application.

[rocker59]

I haven't kept up with that particular application but it was Electro motive (EMD) that was building them some time ago. Cat and some of the other big equipment builders were also. They are also building AC diesel /electric which is better than DC.(efficiency)
 

AC generators are fairly common today.  They've been optional on some locomotives for a couple decades.

I've just searched and cannot find any articles on mechanical drive in modern locomotives.

Now, I'm sitting here contemplating the torque converter that would be required on a 4,000 to 5,000 horsepower diesel engine...  And the heat it would generate when it wasn't locked up!!!

[ohiorider]

AC generators are fairly common today.  They've been optional on some locomotives for a couple decades.

I've just searched and cannot find any articles on mechanical drive in modern locomotives.

Now, I'm sitting here contemplating the torque converter that would be required on a 4,000 to 5,000 horsepower diesel engine...  And the heat it would generate when it wasn't locked up!!!

I found something on small yard engines where the powerplant is linked mechanically to the wheels.  Think I was using Wiki and searching for diesel electric locomotive. 

I recall reading an article years ago that discussed one of the primary reasons for using diesel electric was just that ...... a mechanical clutch of some sort would have been as large as the locomotive itself, to handle the heat generated in simply getting a fully loaded train moving from a dead stop.

Edit:  comprehensive article on Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#Diesel.E2.80.93hydraulic

[screamday]

Someone needs to invent a vehicle who's by-product is beer. Then, instead of "Filling" stations you would have "Pumping" stations. Or...you could just have a couple of taps on the fender of your car. Think I'll draw up some sketches this weekend. 

[oldbike54]

 

 Tony , I want in on that 

 Dusty

[blackcat]

Someone needs to invent a vehicle who's by-product is beer. Then, instead of "Filling" stations you would have "Pumping" stations. Or...you could just have a couple of taps on the fender of your car. Think I'll draw up some sketches this weekend. 

Falling flat on your face will have to be harvested to generate a power plant. Mustangs with 600 Drunk Power, oh boy.

[screamday]

Mustangs with 600 Drunk Power, oh boy.

  Good one. 

[Arizona Wayne]

A new 2018 BMW car has a combo IC engine & electric motor.  When the batteries run down you switch to the gas motor to keep on going.  Sounds like it's a heavy car with 2 drive systems, batteries.

[PeteS]

A new 2018 BMW car has a combo IC engine & electric motor.  When the batteries run down you switch to the gas motor to keep on going.  Sounds like it's a heavy car with 2 drive systems, batteries.

Sounds like a Volt except the switchover is automatic on a Volt.

Pete

[Mr Pootle]

I’m all for cutting pollution, and would be happy to drive an electric car, but about once a month I do a 200 mile drive to my old home town, often coming back the same day. Once a year I like to drive to the south of France, my first overnight stop being just across the Channel, 300 miles from home, and my next, somewhere south of Orleans, another 300 miles down the road.
The limited range of electric cars, and the time it takes to recharge them makes such journeys unfeasible at present. My diesel Volvo can do well in excess of 500 miles on a tank of fuel, and it takes me only a couple of minutes to fill up.
By the time technology enables me to make such journeys in an electric car, Old Father Time will say no.

[pikipiki]

An i.c.e. generator is an expensive option on these and the fuel tank is tiny because of the regs, like suzuki van van tiny. A tow hitch and a trailer with a generator looks like a sensible option for those long haul trips.

[oldbike54]

 A couple of friends only own a motorbike or a very small car . If they want to haul anything , or make a long trip , they simply rent a pick up or a larger car .

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

Good questions!

How many batteries would a busy station need to stock and keep charged in this scheme? How many types?

LP tank exchange is cool, but the scale of doing it with electric car packs seems daunting. The stations would need lots of storage space and lots of electricity to charge them. 

A gas station sells gas to hundreds, some of them thousands of car drivers each day.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Let's say there are three sizes -- m/c, auto, and truck.  You gang them up if you need more than one, like we do now with flashlight batteries.  Alternatively, you could have as many as three sizes of each class, and three grades of each size.  I prefer the more simple, which is probably why the latter will be the way they go.

As has been pointed out, the conversion to 'lectrik won't be quick like that eclipse.  It will take a long time.  A station won't need to stock enough batteries for all the cars on the road, only enough for the few of the few electrics that happen to need a battery along that route at that point.  In reality, the station will need a second product -- like gas or tacos -- to stay in business until the numbers of E cars increases to a sustainable level.  So a station doesn't need to jump into the fray with a full inventory of all size cells and multiple-hundreds of charging bins.  They can add inventory as the need rises -- just pick up the phone to Tesla Cells Leasing, Inc (billed in my pretend as the 'Amazon of battery sources') and say "I need another couple dozen "B" Cells."  A few hours later either a driverless truck pulls up with a pallet or some Amazonian-type drone drops them on the guy.

Tesla says these batteries will be cheap, so I'm pretending that under the lease/rent/purchase model a station can get as many as the traffic dictates and outright purchase what they can afford.  Tesla also says the charge time is going to drop as the technology advances.  So you'd only need to warehouse a double-charge-time-of traffic's-worth.  The double amount covers the station for when the solar, wind, or whatever limits local charging potential.

Under this scheme, E cars really can be "green".

[GearheadGrrrl]

The highest capacity (automated) mechanical truck transmissions today are rated for "only" around 3500 Newton Meters, Which is about what a contemporary "high speed" 1800 RPM diesel is capable above with a HP output in the 700 HP range from a displacement of around 16-20 liters. The standard 2 stroke locomotive diesel for decades, the EMD 710, has a displacement of around 12 liters per cylinder and most often comes in 16 cylinder denominations. Don't believe I've ever seen torque figures for one of these, but a 12 liter diesel with turbocharging is generally good for about 2000 NM so just 2 of those 12 or 16 cylinders of a modern locomotive would max out the capacity of even the biggest manual transmissions. Cummins has experimented with their K series 20 cylinder high speed diesels in a linehaul 6 axle locomotive with around a 4000 HP output at twice the RPM of EMD's and GE's diesels, but even these are near hundred liter engines that would destroy a mechanical transmission.

That said, automated manual transmissions are making some inroads into the smaller off road dump trucks. Basicly these are beefed up highway trucks, and a 700-750 HP engine like Cummins KT19 or Scania or Volvo's 16 liters will give acceptable performance in the smaller mining trucks up to about 100 tons weight. For flatter haul roads gross weights up to 200 tons or so are possible, for example Kenworth built some semi tractors for quad road train use in Australia at around 200 tons train weight with the KT19 Cummins diesel and IIRC they're using truck transmissions. But 200 tons ain't even two fully loaded rail cars. But Brandt in Canada has been modifying Western Star trucks into road legal locomotives with "high rail" setups on steroids, and I've seen them move a half dozen cars full of ballast... But not very fast. 

 

[jcctx]

As mention earlier, the grid would have no chance of providing the energy needed to charge the needs of our current "fleet" if all electric. To upgrade would require decades.

Will be a looooong time before a significant percent of the fleet turns electric..

[Socalrob]

I believe shorly that a full electric car will be ideal as the second car in a two car family.

[Arizona Wayne]

I believe shorly that a full electric car will be ideal as the second car in a two car family.

If the idea of an electric car is to save $ in operating costs, then it would have to be a used electric 2nd car since a new electric MC right now costs $15K, new car $40K.  Then with a used electric car you have the cost or replacing it's batteries down the road which ain't cheap!    So where's the real cost savings in going "green" vs. driving an IC 39 mpg car like my '14 Ford Fiesta?

[JeffOlson]

Speaking of pollution, aren't we just changing the source of it when we switch from many relatively small internal combustion engines to far fewer but far larger power stations? More than half of the electric power generation in the United States comes from burning something...

[Gliderjohn]

From Arizona Wayne:

Then with a used electric car you have the cost or replacing it's batteries down the road which ain't cheap!

I wouldn't be to concerned about the batteries, especially on 2-5 year old car. My B-I-L turns cars on a small scale and really likes Toyota Priuses. Himself, his wife and a couple of his kids all drive them and they were all bought used. A couple of them are still from the first couple of years they came out and all are running on original batteries. He has also turned some and has never had replace a battery pack.
GliderJohn

[Arizona Wayne]

From Arizona Wayne:
I wouldn't be to concerned about the batteries, especially on 2-5 year old car. My B-I-L turns cars on a small scale and really likes Toyota Priuses. Himself, his wife and a couple of his kids all drive them and they were all bought used. A couple of them are still from the first couple of years they came out and all are running on original batteries. He has also turned some and has never had replace a battery pack.
GliderJohn

True Toyotas are hard to beat for reliability/practicality.  Been driving them since `75 new or used with no regrets

Got this Ford just because I rented 1 for 600 miles when my 750 Breva clutch went south to get home and was impressed with it's mpg/looks/handling/comfort.  Our `01 Toyota Rav4 has 151K miles on it and decided it was time to get another car while still keeping the Rav (25 mpg).

[oldbike54]

 Meh , best thing about E vehicles , no oil , gasoline octane , or air filter threads .

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

Meh , best thing about E vehicles , no oil , gasoline octane , or air filter threads .

 Dusty

I'll still be rabbiting on about putting Vaseline on the terminals LOL

[Lannis]

Speaking of pollution, aren't we just changing the source of it when we switch from many relatively small internal combustion engines to far fewer but far larger power stations? More than half of the electric power generation in the United States comes from burning something...

Two factors there ... Since an IC engine has to burn fuel fast and get rid of it, and run at all different speeds, it's hard to make it low-pollution compared to a coal or gas plant.

The utilities have got burning things down to a razor-sharp science.   On a coal power-plant tour once, I got to look into the combustion chamber, and it was like looking at an electric arc - almost purple-hot; they get every BTU of energy out of a pound of coal that's humanly possible, then scrub the exhaust.

So pollutants per BTU are a lot lower for a coal plant than a gasoline engine.   BUT then you have get that energy to the road, which for the gas engine means pushing down a piston, turning shafts, etc.   And for a power plant you have to spin a turbine, turn a generator, transmit electricity, get it to a battery, turn a motor, THEN start turning shafts.   So the pollution from the coal plant per turn of the wheel isn't so advantageous.   I don't have the numbers, though.   

If you could use nuclear or hydro for all of that (or solar and wind if the sun is shining and wind is blowing), then the pollution equation would be clearer .....

Lannis

Lannis

[jknight611]

One of the things that I have pondered n electric vehicles, how do da electricity get in the wires?  In my little town there is a big ass natural gas generator.  With the inefficiency of transporting electrical energy, might make sense to park your electric vehicles in the municipal parking lot to charge your car.   So you have natural gas that is converted to electricity with a substantial loss, transmitted via 50 year old electrical infrastructure with who knows the losses there, then a substantial loss as the charger to charge a battery that has a really varied efficiency.  Some say the modern Li-ion battery is 99% efficient.  Never make that in day to day use.  Looks like a fool�s play with the current technologies.  The 100,000 BTU  or what ever the initial conversation to electrical energy to the end use will be at most 60%.  Maybe  some day! 

[Guido Valvole]

Regarding diesel-hydraulic locomotives, there is one currently running in the USA, the ex-Southern Pacific 9010 Krauss-Maffei at the Pacific Locomotive Association's Niles Canyon RR museum near Fremont, CA (Niles was also the original home of the movie industry before Hollywood)

http://sp9010.ncry.org/

SP got in a power race with UP, which had gas-turbine/electric locomotives that produced from 4000 to 10,000 hp when a standard diesel-electric was 2500-3000 hp. The German torque-converter drive was proven technology in Europe, but American rail operating environments are very different. The KMs had dual twin-turbocharged, 6 valve per cylinder, OHC Maybach prime movers of 2000 hp each. Think "if Porsche built a locomotive". Now realize that SP invented the term "deferred maintenance"... Lots of problems, many from wildly different approaches to maintenance. An EMD of the day was like a Chevy pickup of the day...

The link above has lots of fascinating info on the technology and challenges in restoration. They've got one working Maybach now, maybe another in the future. Guzzi content -- shaft drive. As EMD and GE diesel-electric systems improved (helped in no small amount by turbocharging) any perceived advantages of hydraulic transmission were negated. Alco also made some diesel-hydraulic locomotives, using some KM technology.

As Gearhead Grrrl pointed out, large diesel torque is stupendous. There were early attempts at diesel (and gas)-mechanical transmission, mostly in relatively small self-propelled railcars. I experienced one of those in a museum once. If you think a Guzzi gearbox is slow and klunky, lol. No synchromesh, either.

Iirc, the BMW i3 that started this thread has an optional "range extender" -- small gasoline engine that can recharge the battery pack. But then it's not a purist EV.
cr

[yogidozer]

run outa juice? naa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b7k66_Psps




ssl image

[Tom]

If an electric car can't do the "Last gasoline for 100 miles." stretch from Beatty, NV to Tonopah, NV.  They're not worth the money until they can do that with the lights on and ac blowing plus moving at 70+ mph.