Author Topic: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete  (Read 22710 times)

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2018, 03:38:58 PM »
With declining sales in the US, both for HD and for the cruiser market in general, HD is forced to do something different.  More than just 'bold new graphics' or a parts bin mod to the tried and true.  Sports bike sales are flat.  There is growth in the Adventure segment as seen by the fact that every major manufacturer is hitting that one hard.  Heck, even Ducati and KTM are offering serious competition to the GS.  I wish the Motor Company good luck.  What has been posted here appears to be overweight, under suspended and a far departure from their core market.  Now, if we do see a big tax on imported motorcycles from Europe and the East HD just might find themselves under pricing the competition enough to offset those shortcomings.  Time will tell. 
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Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2018, 03:45:30 PM »
Why do you assume things like this?

The closest relative to these bikes in the Harley line-up (the Street Rod 750) currently weighs in a 516 # wet.


Ahh yes the KTM 1290 and the BMW 1200 GS are so closely related to a Harley 750 cruiser it like they are all one bike.


What am I assuming? The BMW and the KTM are posted weights. I just wonder if Harley will be able to even get close in weight. I mean everyone knows Harley is sonomous with light weight.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:47:52 PM by Perazzimx14 »
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2018, 03:48:27 PM »
What am I assuming? The BMW and the KTM are posted weights. I just wonder if Harley will be able to even get close in weight. I mean everyone knows Harley is sonomous with light weight.
You're assuming these bikes are business as usual for Harley and not an attempt at something new.

Fwiw Harley has started to pay attention to things like brakes, suspension, and even weight.

And as I said these bikes appear to be related to the Street series which is already hundreds of pounds lighter than your stated assumption.
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Offline jas67

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 04:35:11 PM »
Ya.....the top two are butt ugly but I'm kinda likin' the bottom one.

 +1

My thoughts exactly.
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2018, 04:35:11 PM »

Offline Darren Williams

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2018, 04:36:09 PM »
And as I said these bikes appear to be related to the Street series which is already hundreds of pounds lighter than your stated assumption.

I'm not schooled or experienced on the Street engines. Are you saying the motors in these examples are based on those motors and not the 1200 sportster motors? That would be interesting if they went in the middle 750 to 850 range and not the bigger 1200 motors.

Competing with the new V85? Who would of thought Guzzi would be on the cutting edge of a new trend in middle size V Twin ADV bikes???   :bike-037:
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Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2018, 04:42:35 PM »
Happy the motor company is using some imagination for a change. I'm so sick of looking at Harley cruisers and look alike cookie cutter bikes. Why the hell does 1/2 the "biker" population have a need to bolt a set of apes on a bike? But that dirt glide could use a little work for sure.
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Offline lucian

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2018, 04:54:47 PM »
The top one has a headlight that reminds me of my Kirby vacuum.



I'd rather ride a Kirby vacuum.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 04:56:13 PM by lucian »

Offline redrider90

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2018, 05:16:19 PM »
I wonder what the dual sport Pan America 1250cc motor will weight? anybody. They sure are not knocking on KTM's door with that bike.
Is there a market for overweight dual sport HD? I've been looking for weight of this and cannot find it.
KTM 320#s 690 cc single cylinder at 72 ponies vs the Pan America. It isn't apples to apples but HD is building a dual sport that is more Sportster than dual sport. And KTM will eat it lunch on the twisties and how many Harley boys what a dual sport. Now a HD sport bike built right (Eric Buell where are you when they need you) and they will sell them. But forget the off road stuff. 
Heck they didn't even raise the fenders off the tires.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 11:45:03 AM by redrider90 »
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Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2018, 05:22:06 PM »
You're assuming these bikes are business as usual for Harley and not an attempt at something new.

Fwiw Harley has started to pay attention to things like brakes, suspension, and even weight.

And as I said these bikes appear to be related to the Street series which is already hundreds of pounds lighter than your stated assumption.

Aren't you assuming these bike are related to the 750 series bikes? Also Hundreds of pounds lighter than what?  The 900 or 1000lb bohemoth that usually rolls off the assembly line. Boy that's really be pushing the envelope. If we're lucky they will also have the traditional long throw transmission that would rival a Farmall. Oh wait there i go assuming again.









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Offline Pisano

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2018, 05:26:07 PM »
Four new bikes with four different swing arm designs....
Not the best economy of scale.

Offline LowRyter

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 05:49:55 PM »
They gotta do something with all those VROD engines....

I think the VRods are DEAD.  These motors are the newer water cooled 500/750 (975/1250???) engines.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 05:51:46 PM by LowRyter »
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 05:55:10 PM »
Maybe there is some hope here, I'll check my earlier comment and withhold judgement. 

Could there be a Harley Monster lurking ?

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Offline jas67

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 06:32:29 PM »
If we're lucky they will also have the traditional long throw transmission that would rival a Farmall. Oh wait there i go assuming again.

THIS comment on a GUZZI forum?    Up until the 6 speed CARC and 6 speed V7 transmissions, Guzzi transmissions were pretty agricultural too.

I for one am happy to see the MoCo trying something outside their normal cruiser box.    That said, it'll only work if they're dealers do a better job of selling them than they did Buell, the XR1200(X), and even going back to the XLCR.

The "Faithful" won't want these.    That is true, but, that is the point.  I hope that they do well with them.

The first one is ugly.
The second one isn't bad if it had low pipes.  High pipes on a street bike are pointless.
The third one has me interested, as another said, looks sort of like a Ducati Streetfigher.    That said, I'm only interested in it if it is under 550#.    520# like my R1200RS would be about right for the 1250, a 975 version should be 460-475#, 500 and 750cc version should be closer 430#.     Any heavier, then I'm not really interested.
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 06:45:10 PM »
That has to be the most Chinese looking ADV bike I've ever seen.  Hideous.  Almost unimaginably hideous.  I christen thee THE PANNED AM. 

I'm a little surprised Harley didn't go for something aesthetically that reflects a little more history like, say, the way a Royal Enfield Himalalyan manages to blend some measure of their own current styling into the mix.  But I'm not a giant fan of the REH either.

For some reason the 2nd one is reminding me of a more straight ahead Confederate. 

The third one reminds me of a Kawasaki on a bad day, maybe a Diavel if I'm feeling generous.  But I think Diavels are terrible too. 

By contrast, I think their current Fat Bobs are near gorgeous. 






As everyone says, however, kudos to them for giving it a shot.  More than once have folks on this board and many others declared Harley "finally dying" only to have the company come back stronger.  So we'll see.   

Offline kballowe

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 06:49:45 PM »
1.  FUGLY
2. Just generally ugly
3.   Hmmmmmmmmm

Offline wrbix

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 06:52:56 PM »
The top one has a headlight that reminds me of my Kirby vacuum.



I'd rather ride a Kirby vacuum.
...
.....but the Kirby is designed to only accommodate one dirt bag.

Why’d that take so long?
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Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 06:53:32 PM »
THIS comment on a GUZZI forum?    Up until the 6 speed CARC and 6 speed V7 transmissions, Guzzi transmissions were pretty agricultural too.

I for one am happy to see the MoCo trying something outside their normal cruiser box.    That said, it'll only work if they're dealers do a better job of selling them than they did Buell, the XR1200(X), and even going back to the XLCR.

The "Faithful" won't want these.    That is true, but, that is the point.  I hope that they do well with them.

The first one is ugly.
The second one isn't bad if it had low pipes.  High pipes on a street bike are pointless.
The third one has me interested, as another said, looks sort of like a Ducati Streetfigher.    That said, I'm only interested in it if it is under 550#.    520# like my R1200RS would be about right for the 1250, a 975 version should be 460-475#, 500 and 750cc version should be closer 430#.     Any heavier, then I'm not really interested.

All the small blocks have long throw transsmission. At least all the once i have ever ridden. The 70's era BB stuff is very agricultural with the Eldorado being king of the heap. Shifts were a very dedicated process. The 850T and T3 were not so involved but certainly not snick up through the gears. The Quota and Griso were quit acceptable. Actully the V50 MX3 and the V7R transmission were both smooth just a very long throw.






« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 06:54:21 PM by Perazzimx14 »
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Offline wrbix

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 06:55:55 PM »
hopefully they learned something from Buell.
Seemingly not as much as Buell learned from the MoCo - whom not to bed down with.
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Offline Bud

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 06:58:15 PM »
     Good for HD. I am also sick of the cruiser bagger Harley and the image that can go along with it.  I like different and that's one reason why I bought my Touring. The bikes shown are different and that alone is appealing to me. Harley has been really improving their products over the last few years and my hat is off to them to take a new approach.
     If some of those bikes came out with no name on them many here would be singing a different tune.

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 07:47:18 PM »
I'm not schooled or experienced on the Street engines. Are you saying the motors in these examples are based on those motors and not the 1200 sportster motors? That would be interesting if they went in the middle 750 to 850 range and not the bigger 1200 motors.

Competing with the new V85? Who would of thought Guzzi would be on the cutting edge of a new trend in middle size V Twin ADV bikes???   :bike-037:
The articles I've read today are implying (probably means they don't know for sure yet) that these motors are related to the Revolution motors (60° water-cooled, unitized) used in the Street line.

They certainly don't appear to share anything with the 45° air-cooled Sportster line.
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2018, 07:51:31 PM »

Aren't you assuming these bike are related to the 750 series bikes? Also Hundreds of pounds lighter than what?  The 900 or 1000lb bohemoth that usually rolls off the assembly line. Boy that's really be pushing the envelope. If we're lucky they will also have the traditional long throw transmission that would rival a Farmall. Oh wait there i go assuming again.

Why are you straw manning this and deliberately being obtuse. The articles published today and common sense would suggest these are related to the other Revolution motors. And YOU suggested they will be 250# too heavy which is baseless since the current Revolution Street Rod is only 518# wet. And that is already hundreds of pounds lower than you are assuming.

It's one thing to speculate, but at least base the speculation on something logical and related.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 08:06:31 AM by Kev m »
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2018, 08:44:00 PM »
   I christen thee THE PANNED AM. 
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2018, 08:46:58 PM »
MSRP:  Twice anyone else.  No, thanks.

Offline jas67

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« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:57:29 PM by jas67 »
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Offline jas67

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2018, 09:03:23 PM »
From the HD website:
Quote
NEW PRODUCTS
We are planning our most comprehensive lineup of motorcycles. Highlights include:

Extending the company's leadership in heavyweight motorcycles by continuing to develop improved, more technologically-advanced Touring and Cruiser motorcycles that will keep existing Harley-Davidson riders engaged and riding longer.
Introducing a new modular 500cc to 1250cc middleweight platform of motorcycles that spans three distinct product spaces and four displacements, starting with the company;s first Adventure Touring motorcycle, the Harley-Davidson Pan America 1250, a 1250cc Custom model and a 975cc Streetfighter model, all of which are planned to launch beginning in 2020. Additional models to broaden coverage in these product spaces will follow through 2022. 

Developing a more accessible, small-displacement (250cc to 500cc) motorcycle for Asia emerging markets through a planned strategic alliance with a manufacturer in Asia.  This new product and broader distribution is intended to fuel Harley-Davidson's customer access and growth in India, one of the largest, fastest growing markets in the world, and other Asia markets.
Leading the electric motorcycle market by launching Harley-Davidson's first electric motorcycle, LiveWire, in 2019 -- the first in a broad, no-clutch twist and go portfolio of electric two-wheelers designed to establish the company as the leader in the electrification of the sport. LiveWire will be followed by additional models through 2022 to broaden the portfolio with lighter, smaller and even more accessible product options to inspire new riders with new ways to ride.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 09:04:13 PM by jas67 »
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Offline Tusayan

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2018, 09:12:14 PM »
Seems to me the last time HD tried to compete broadly was the mid-1970s, with HD Aermacchis supporting the low end.  It'd be great to see them successful, I'd see it as the result of positive change in philosophy.  It'd also be nice to see an end to the long era of questioning how much longer their stylistically intransigent product can possibly continue sell in volume.


Offline LowRyter

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2018, 09:24:40 PM »
reading closely, it looks like Harley is actually coming out with some versatile motorcycles.  I've been disappointed every time I've gotten serious about Harleys but these bikes do look serious.   After seeing the pictures of ugly bikes and then seeing some of the others, it looks like they might have some nice rides. 

My gooodness, some are midmounts!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder what I might do if I see one a I like after bashing them for 50 years?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:30:34 AM by LowRyter »
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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »
The Kirby Dirtglide is horrendous, even by ADV bike standards.

The retro dirt tracker has a cool look to it and it follows the current trend for customs/scrambler/café etc. I'd skip the fat tires.

The "streetfighter" looks like a Buell S1 lightning.

HD has to do something, and I hope it works out. I could see considering the second two.

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2018, 10:44:47 PM »
First thing I thought of when I saw the Adv bike was the Bimota DB3 Mantra!
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Offline Tom H

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Re: New Harleys - the Moco trying to compete
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2018, 10:59:39 PM »
I must be the only one that thinks #3 looks like a bug that walked across my yard today.

The ADV with a better headlight might be a contender. But then again, what do I know. ADV is not my style. BUT if it was, I would compare the specs and price.

I do applaud HD for giving something different a whirl!

JMHO,
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