V85 Street Bike ?

[rdbandkab]

Maybe Guzzi could let a little teaser photo out and show what direction they're going.  As I stated earlier,  that first (basic) mock-up was from Lord who knows who. I could only dig back to see it may have been from the Facebook page of Moto Guzzi V85 Italy Group from Nov 2017.  Or it could have been one of the design studios that grab every bike and give their take on it, or it could have been a true amateur photoshopper.  For the fairing'd mock-up from later in the thread, I grabbed the back off the TT for somewhere to attach bags and add a tiny bit more seat (which would be still too thin).  I'd like a larger fairing for a touring bike,  but that small fairing was from the first picture I could find of a Guzzi with a fairing, sitting at the same angle.   
I figure the real road-going version will look little like the mock-up.  (I'm still hoping for an Ohlins shock at least)  I'm hoping, when it appears, that it looks a bit more modern naked sport tourer...and less old style. Yeah...it's a little too funky at the front where there's tank meeting frame members.  A nice sculpted tank combined with a half fairing might bring her up to modern standards. And while they're at it,  give us a nice smooth pillion friendly seat with SOME FOAM!!
I can't wait to see the real deal!

V85 Stradale GT!

[Devildog]

Why not a V85 tribute - replica model, as close as possible to their most iconic and famous motorcycle?

[pete roper]

Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?

And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D

Pete

[Huzo]

Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?

And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D

Pete

Ok that's a perfectly valid point of view from any angle, but those same words could be applied to the mock up that we see here, depending on your level of expectation and personal taste.
One of the early posts regarding your Stelvio read something like..
"It's an ugly turd...
But it's my turd"
Hardly a glowing appraisal, yet you've grown to become fond. I wouldn't be ashamed to be seen on it, I reckon it's almost half as nice as my Norge.
High praise indeed..,
PS
I don't look at my appendage when I'm "using it" either...(but it's still ugly... )

[JohninVT]

Their most famous and iconic motorcycle? Which would that be? The Bicylindrica or the V8?

And Peter I suppose I have somewhat fallen for the Stelvio. Why? Because it is a great motorbike that does most things well and very few badly. It has enough performance to be both exciting and enjoyable, is a superb two-up tourer and it has decent enough suspension to be comfortable on just about any road. It's one major Achilles heel is it's weight. I don't look at it when I'm riding it! :D

Pete

Most people who buy new Guzzi’s have no idea about the bicylindrica or V8.  I think the current V7 is the iconic Guzzi to the vast majority of buyers.  This forum is a deep, dark rabbit hole and it isn’t a representative sample(thank god) of the buying public at large.  If it was, Moto Guzzi would have gone out of business in 1980.  Everyone here will bitch and moan no matter what Guzzi brings to the table.  I include myself in that number.  Based on what has actually sold in the last 15 years...the absolute best bet for Guzzi is putting the new engine in a V7 chassis.

[AH Fan]

Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.

PS   Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.

Enjoy                  Ciao

[Huzo]

Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.

PS   Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.

Enjoy                  Ciao

Weigh..

[OregonAl]

Why not a V85 tribute - replica model, as close as possible to their most iconic and famous motorcycle?

This. Call it a V850 Le Mans and be done with it. The styling of the V7 is already half way there, and with values of the LM1 so high the timing is perfect. As long as they release it quickly it would sell very well. I would be a buyer myself.

[pete roper]

Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!

Back then the idea of a 'Sporting Tonti' was already a ludicrous anachronism. Nothing has changed. If they were to build a facsimile of the LeMans now it would still sell like rat sandwiches. Move on for Christ's sakes!

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!

Nothing has changed
Pete

I. concur
everything they made since then has done the same
except v7 series of course
 v85 the first light in the tunnel for years
new lemans inevitable hope they get it right this time

[pete roper]

No Martin. The CARC series bikes were really competitive in their field. The problem was that the old codgers were upset by them and the general public were ignorant of them.

I know you'll never agree but that's the truth of it.

Pete

[Kev m]

Well I figured I should way in as well...… Not sure if I'm old, I don't feel it and I have owned new and older machines of many different manufacturers and IMHO Newer is not better in most cases.
I know it shouldn't be like that but it appears that's the way its working for most..... so that being said I will be holding on to my stable of girls for the foreseeable future.

PS   Just to keep it real I never miss a chance to ride the next new G Wizzz must have according to GQ mag.... will the next contestant please step up LOL.

Enjoy                  Ciao

The problem is your statements are generally false.

Well, arguably so.

More accurately your statements are subjective.

Newer vehicles are generally "better" in most subjectively measured metrics when compared with products from the same segments (see note) that came before them:

* Make more power
* Are more efficient
* Put out lower emmisions
* Have better brakes
* Have better suspensions
* Are easier to maintain/require fewer repairs

Note: of course you'll find exceptions, but most are say comparing the cheap suspension of a modern entry level bike to say a premium sporting product from yesteryear. Or like looking at a cruiser's weight when that segment's priorities are comfort, room, etc.

Anyway the point is all your original statements are only true IF you're measuring other metrics and isolating then to things that YOU prioritize.

Or stated another way, if you just added the words "to you".
. Like how I find Guzzis and Harleys better than anything else on the market TO ME.

 

[tazio]

But Kev, AH Fan stated "IMHO".
Wouldn't that cover your problem with him not adding "to me"?

[Murray]

I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks? I've ridden them, they're crap and Ohlins will simply be rolling a turd in glitter, it may help but you are trying to get around physics. Modern production version of the paraleogrammo a version of the CARC system or the anti jacking system on the spine frames. Something needs to be done I'm somewhat skeptical of the V85TT as it doesn't seem to have an anti jacking system the Quota sorta worked although the shock wasn't bolted directly to the final drive and it wasn't a cure especially if they have any intention of widening their market base.

The real issue is modern bikes are now so far ahead of anything offered from Guzzi they really need to stop pandering to the past and do something different, a Hyabusa hunting V8 sports tourer? An all electric sports bike?

[Kev m]

But Kev, AH Fan stated "IMHO".
Wouldn't that cover your problem with him not adding "to me"?

Good point, yes it probably does, and I'm not coming at him personally so much as to say it's ok to prefer one or the other, but it's probably silly to blanket say "better" without qualifying it.

[rdbandkab]

Single side shock.. Ohlins maybe?

I can't wait for these models to actually come out.  That way I relate an informed opinion.   
Who knows, I just might like riding big glittery turd!

If I don't like it,  I'll keep my 06 B11 and go in search of a Multistrada...or Kawi H2 Se tourer.  That'll show'em.

[Murray]

Single side shock.. Ohlins maybe?

Not exactly reassuring is it? We'll see what the reviews are like I guess.

[JohninVT]

I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks? I've ridden them, they're crap and Ohlins will simply be rolling a turd in glitter, it may help but you are trying to get around physics. Modern production version of the paraleogrammo a version of the CARC system or the anti jacking system on the spine frames. Something needs to be done I'm somewhat skeptical of the V85TT as it doesn't seem to have an anti jacking system the Quota sorta worked although the shock wasn't bolted directly to the final drive and it wasn't a cure especially if they have any intention of widening their market base.

The real issue is modern bikes are now so far ahead of anything offered from Guzzi they really need to stop pandering to the past and do something different, a Hyabusa hunting V8 sports tourer? An all electric sports bike?

Every single model they’ve trotted out to compete with modern bikes has been a failure or as with the CARC bikes, an evolutionary dead end.  That’s a shame since the Griso and Norge 8 valve bikes were very good machines.

They really don’t need to continue failing.  The V7 is a success.  The V9 is not.  A V8 styled like the V7 would sell.  Everyone here can gnash their teeth and complain but there no arguing that the most popular motorcycle Guzzi has produced in the last 30 years is the V7. 

[Tusayan]

Every single model they’ve trotted out to compete with modern bikes has been a failure or as with the CARC bikes, an evolutionary dead end.

Indeed.  The CARC bikes might have succeeded if they weren't such an obvious copy of BMWs product line, except one or more evolutionary steps behind. The Griso is an exception and one that reflected much better on the brand, but I'd maintain that no company will ever build or rebuild a brand by copying another successful product.  Piaggio has seemingly figured that out at last, and is slowly rebuilding the brand with the V7s.  I think if they keep going, building economical but stylish, distinct Guzzis first then slowly moving upmarket, they stand a much better chance of succeeding.

The V85TT is a way to move a little bit progressively upmarket, exploiting a niche for a more 'grounded' adventure bike that has been vacated by competitors.  The styling and concept is good enough.  The only thing it needs now is to perform 'well enough' to get good reviews.  The small block V7 has already shown it doesn't have to be a Superbike like the original to be successful, and similarly the V85TT won't need to have numbers like a R12GS.  If the TT works out I think you can be sure the next one will be a V85 street bike.

[pete roper]

If you are going to say that the CARC series bikes are 'Copies' of BMW's you'd have to say the same for every previous Guzzi twin from 1967. It's a lousy argument. The layout of the engine makes the hi-cam distribution system a no brainer. Short of bevel driving the cam or cams in the heads it's the only option really.

Pete

[Tusayan]

The Brevona, Norge and Stelvio are BMW derivative bikes, not engines.  The same power train in something else might’ve caught the markets attention.

Also, Guzzi introduced their original modernized engine at the same time as BMW (1993)

[Darren Williams]

IMHO, the CARC bikes were a well conceived, but poorly executed, attempt at a modern line-up of a standard, sport, sport-tourer and adventure tourer. When sorted they were stellar performers in the handling, braking and power delivery encompassing some pretty high end components. I wish they had continued to evolve.

What hurt he CARC bikes was poor assembly quality, some major design flaws and a sparse dealer network that had inadequate factory support.

Number one, todays high end motorcycle buyer should not be expected to have to do things like disassemble the swing arm and shock linkage to add missing grease, coat circuit boards that should have been done at the supplier or replace delicate spark plug caps. That may have worked 30 years ago with the mechanically inclined riders of that era, but not in this century.

Number two, and maybe biggest was the poorly designed and handled flat tappet fiasco, along with needing fuses to protect an aux light circuit that can disable the bike if shorted out, add start circuit wiring to fix inadequate wiring/switches.

Not repeating these issues will be paramount for any new bikes they trot out, whether I like the design or not.

[JohninVT]

Indeed.  The CARC bikes might have succeeded if they weren't such an obvious copy of BMWs product line, except one or more evolutionary steps behind. The Griso is an exception and one that reflected much better on the brand, but I'd maintain that no company will ever build or rebuild a brand by copying another successful product.  Piaggio has seemingly figured that out at last, and is slowly rebuilding the brand with the V7s.  I think if they keep going, building economical but stylish, distinct Guzzis first then slowly moving upmarket, they stand a much better chance of succeeding.

The V85TT is a way to move a little bit progressively upmarket, exploiting a niche for a more 'grounded' adventure bike that has been vacated by competitors.  The styling and concept is good enough.  The only thing it needs now is to perform 'well enough' to get good reviews.  The small block V7 has already shown it doesn't have to be a Superbike like the original to be successful, and similarly the V85TT won't need to have numbers like a R12GS.  If the TT works out I think you can be sure the next one will be a V85 street bike.

I agree with most of what you say except that I disagree manufacturers can't get ahead copying the competition.  Even if the CARC bikes were aimed squarely at certain BMW models, they failed due to marketing and not because the bikes were bad or inferior.  Ducati jumped on the scrambler bandwagon and sold 16,000 of them in the first year.  They haven't had a scrambler since 1962 so it's not like they did a whole lot with the niche in the last 56 years.  Ducati was smart by saying the Scrambler isn't a model but a separate brand within a brand.  It's the whole "lifestyle" thing that we all hate.  As much as we hate it...it works.  It sells motorcycles.     

[Fnq1000]

Hello
Over the weekend I went into a mega multi-brand motorcycle shop to buy a new helmet (stinking deal on a Shoei) and nostalgia is well and truely in. Triumph especially but offerings from Suzuki and Honda (a 125 Monkey bike for goodness sake)

I generally avoid these places like the plague but at the same time opened my eyes a bit.

I think there is a place for a LeMans replica using the V85. The whole nostalgia thing was definitely not in action in late 1980's-early 90's so I do not think the 1000S history is a reasonable example. At that time I was working on drilling rigs and making good money with little opportunity to spend it. As a Guzzi owner and fan at the time, I considered a 1000S and considered it a poor copy of the original and didn't buy one. I do not understand why they command the $ now either........

Anyway fast forward to today and seeing Triumph's with faux rigid rears, paint jobs circa 1962 and probably stick on bullet holes and considering the current range of other manufacturers, if people weren't buying them they wouldn't be for sale eg Re-booted Katana anyone.....

So I think a faux LeMans will find buyers, the demographic that it is targeted at is now old enough and perhaps cashed up enough to live the glory days they never had (just don't make the rearsets and clip-ons too extreme for old bones)

But that shouldn't be it in the range, no way! Give me a 1400 version of this http://www.guareschimoto.it/gc-corse-kit-varano/

Then I'll be happy!!! Nothing wrong with looking forward and back.

Cheers
Jason

[twowheeladdict]

I'm in two minds about this, espcailly as no one has ridden the V85TT so no idea if the motor lives up to the claims. An 80hp shaft driven bike with twin shocks?

The TT has a single shock and an Ohlins option.

[pete roper]

The TT has a single shock and an Ohlins option.

Yes, it does, but a cantilever rear end is really a bit so-so on the back of a bike supposed to have dirt road capability.

Having said that once I'd bought it a decent shock my Mana was actually a very nice machine both on tar and graded dirt but it's fat, road tyres meant it was never going off road.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

No Martin. The CARC series bikes were really competitive in their field. The problem was that the old codgers were upset by them and the general public were ignorant of them.

I know you'll never agree but that's the truth of it.

Pete

i was agreeing with sales failure comment  hence nos grisos still bolted to dealers floors now, years after production
 hardly good biz

Yes, it does, but a cantilever rear end is really a bit so-so on the back of a bike supposed to have dirt road capability.

Having said that once I'd bought it a decent shock my Mana was actually a very nice machine both on tar and graded dirt but it's fat, road tyres meant it was never going off road.

Pete

pds (linkless) shocks not hard to research off road. Pioneered by WP for kato and burg mx/ enduro  bikes . Many titles won
wether market needs parawhatsit rear end nuther story
I don’t   a good shock with 6” travel perfect for me
thing will be a seller imho
the lemans rep that follows even more so

[oilhed]

The frame looks like my old Suzuki Bandit 600, not a bad thing. But I hate that rear subframe. I'd rather it look like an old Guzzi or just chopped off. 

[reidy]

Remember the 1000S? That was nearly thirty years ago. People said "Why don't Guzzi build a LeMans again? I'd buy one!" So they built the 1000S and it sat around in showrooms like a stale bottle of inferior beer!

Back then the idea of a 'Sporting Tonti' was already a ludicrous anachronism. Nothing has changed. If they were to build a facsimile of the LeMans now it would still sell like rat sandwiches. Move on for Christ's sakes!

Pete

Pete what I have trouble understanding is ebay listings like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Moto-Guzzi-1000S/153274844197 $18700 and possibly still climbing for this used stale bottle of inferior beer. I was not one of those that said they would buy one 30 years ago as I was a young bloke with a wife, kids and mortgage. I have always liked the look of them but for a price rapidly approaching 20 big ones I hope it has been well maintained as stated in its 81000 km's. I guess I will always like the look of these but at this price I will never be in a position to comment if they are as good as something like a Tooheys old or your description.

[gentlemanjim]

My $.02.  I'm a Guzzi lover, owned three: 2 V50's and a Breva 1100.

When it comes to styling you cannot beat the shape of the V7 Tank and for the most part the overall look.  I just can't deal with 49 H.P. in a 750 cc bike.  So when the V9's came out I got excited a bit more power, but the styling went out with the babies dirty diapers.

Now we have a V85 with the right power in an adventure style - I like.  So where is the sin to just put the V85 engine in the V7 or tweak the V7 Power, add a mono shock .  The 850 engine is not new MG had them for many ears in Europe.

I'd buy a new one IF the small blocks were more on par with Triumph Bonneville's, Ducati Monsters, Yamaha F-07's, BMW F800's.  MG are priced in their league, now back it up with comparable specs and performance.